| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Error
Captain
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 680
Location: Any blackberry patch.
|
 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:58 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Whill wrote: | <dusts off the Moderator cloak and puts on>
| Sutehp wrote: | I was thinking that someone might lock this thread.  |
Sutehp, if your goal was just to help Error with word and phrasing choices and provide alternatives, you could have done just that and Error could have agreed, disagreed and defended his choices. But continuing to argue beyond his response to your initial attempt to help is going full-on "grammar nazi" which is really not needed on a Star Wars RPG forum.
Now I can sympathize to a very small extent. For example, when someone spells something wrong in the title of a thread that could lead to misunderstanding of what the thread is about or foil attempts to find it in a search, I do sometimes edit the title.
For the most part, we are just sharing our SW/RPG ideas here with each other and anyone else may either find it useful or not. Most of us have a decent enough command of the English language to decipher the meanings of what the rest of us post. You knew exactly everthing Error meant.
| Sutehp wrote: | | A couple things I noticed that rankled me... |
If these "grammar nazi" offenses are something that everyone else can ignore without commenting but you are "rankled" by them, it puts a possible altruistic purpose of your criticisms into suspicion. May I please suggest you just try not to be irritated and resentful of non-essential details of a homebrew starship, such as the grammar and word choice used in describing it? If you must be irritated and resentful about word choice, may I please ask you to consider not acting on it? If you do offer rewording suggestions, maybe just put it out there and leave it at that? Let people take it or leave it. Once you reply again, suddenly it is not about the Star Wars game and we're arguing about the language used. |
Thanks for this. I didn't want to have to write it, but I had the exact same speech planned out in advance if Sutehp wanted to continue arguing about it. Also, my cloak is the "*sshole cloak" and is much less diplomatic.
A few paragraphs on the matter:
I always choose the words that seem most correct to me. To quote Mark Twain: "The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
I don't consider whether individuals have scientific training, and I don't care. Because this isn't going into a published book. And even if it were, there would be at least two copy editors standing between me and my seeing it on the shelf somewhere. And as for making up words or new definitions for them (which I did not), anyone can do it. If others start to use that new word or definition, it will become a word or definition proper. This actually happens all the time and is essential to the evolution of language. In English, the term is neologism ('neo' from the Greek for 'new', and 'logos' from the Greek 'word' = literally, 'new word') and applies to all kinds of words in our day and age: "selfie," "hacker," "blog," "meme," (actually, Richard Dawkins coined the term 'meme' in his book The Selfish Gene in 1976, but it entered common language, as you can see) and dozens and dozens of others. Popular words that some large percentage of the population know the definitions of get to go into the various dictionaries at the end of each year. Setting this aside, referring to a craft's "bow" as its "nose" is something nobody misunderstands, because whether "bow" is the correct-est word is irrelevant.
I don't understand the "between" thing. Meaning Sutehp's assertion that since the word itself doesn't have a geometric definition, it can't possibly be applied to a description of a geometric object as being "between" two shapes, even though the language makes it pretty clear that it can, along with the fact that anyone reading it would know exactly what was meant. Would saying "this balloon is between that balloon and that other balloon in size" be incorrect? I don't think so. I mean I understand the argument he's trying to mount, but I don't see it having merit. Just because "between" lacks a definition relating to geometry does not somehow preclude it from being so used. If I wanted, I could make the same cheap argument about any word. If I said "I want either ice cream or steak" and the definition of the word "either" did not include anything specifically relating to ice cream or steak, or even food, am I grammatically incorrect? I think not.
I myself am what I refer to as a "recovered grammar Nazi". I used to correct everyone. I'd stop them during a sentence and say, "What I think you mean is..." I'd also send back papers that had spelling or grammatical mistakes as "unreadable". As you can imagine, I was really popular. I stopped doing it when I realized all of the following:
- No one asked me to make unsolicited corrections and most folks do not want it until they specifically ask for it.
- Nobody ever thanked me for unsolicited corrections, either—not once.
- When I corrected, I was viewed as pretentious and annoying, not a caped crusader protecting folks from the evils of being slightly misunderstood. This was made clear to me later by a sympathetic colleague.
- My corrections did not improve the spelling or grammar of my colleagues.
- My corrective bent also alienated me a bit, and folks would purposefully ask others to read their drafts because my editions were straight-up pedantic, and I insisted on going over them one-by-one and explaining what had the writer had done wrong.
- Letting it bother me when others made mistakes was my problem, not theirs.
- Choosing to give opinions only when asked got me way less flak and people warmed up to me a little.
- And the most important one among all these reasons was my motivation. I was doing it to prove myself to others, to myself, and to an ideal, not because I ultimately gave a sh*t about the grammar or spelling of other people. This last reason was the straw that broke the camel's back and I stopped forever. I now strongly chastise grammar Nazis on Facebook and Twitter for "not adding anything" and "you know exactly what was meant whether it was there, their, or they're".
Granted, this phase took me from the time I was a teenager and found I had innate grammatical understanding until the time I was working research at the local university. But it happened, as I believe happens to all "grammar Nazis" as they grow and change and their priorities shift.
_________________
The only words of explanation you need for any concept in the entire Star Wars universe are the words Science Fiction and Space Opera. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Error
Captain
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 680
Location: Any blackberry patch.
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
Furthermore, for those thinking "Blackguard" is not an appropriate name for an Imperial class of Star Dreadnoughts, you must be forgetting (first and foremost Executor (One who executes...a plan or a being? [pretty unclear]) and Bellator (which literally means warrior or war-causer), followed by Harrower, Invincible, Conqueror, Centurion, Praetor, and Scythe-class ships (not sure if all are Imperial, but the trend is clear among Galactic shipbuilding to name classes after "intimidating" things). Plus, the class is meant to be a "black" "guard" (the background command ship for small sector fleets whose major role is to defend [by intervening if necessary] the other capital ships in the fleet, as well as being the nucleus from which orders come down). So the name fits it perfectly to me.
For the worriers, I can explain that the name came down from Imperial fleet HQ rather than KDY itself when the class was ordered. They wanted something intimidating. How about that? lol
Everyone seems to have all these issues with my home-grown fictional fleet support craft...maybe I should just stop responding. If WEG had created this first and put it in a sourcebook or supplement somewhere, no one would think twice about it...
_________________
The only words of explanation you need for any concept in the entire Star Wars universe are the words Science Fiction and Space Opera. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zarn
Force Spirit
Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 698
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
A blackguard is an oath breaker, a man who behaves in a dishonourable or contemptible way. It is pronounced, and pretty much has the same meaning as the word 'blaggard'. A scoundrel; an unprincipled contemptible person; an untrustworthy person. Usually, only used to refer to a male person.
I suspect, but hasn't bothered to research, that 'blaggard' originally was 'blackguard'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Error
Captain
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 680
Location: Any blackberry patch.
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Zarn wrote: | A blackguard is an oath breaker, a man who behaves in a dishonourable or contemptible way. It is pronounced, and pretty much has the same meaning as the word 'blaggard'. A scoundrel; an unprincipled contemptible person; an untrustworthy person. Usually, only used to refer to a male person.
I suspect, but hasn't bothered to research, that 'blaggard' originally was 'blackguard'. |
Oh, I know the dictionary definitions. My personal connotations of it have also been tempered by the presence of the class in games I have been exposed to, namely sword and sorcery games in any medium, wherein a Blackguard is kind of the anti-Paladin.
If anyone has any ideas about what to name it, I'm all ears. Please consider its role.
_________________
The only words of explanation you need for any concept in the entire Star Wars universe are the words Science Fiction and Space Opera. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Error
Captain
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 680
Location: Any blackberry patch.
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Do you guys out there who are familiar with capital ship armament think what I have written for this craft in the original post lines up with what a ship of that length and shape and power generation should be capable of? When I statted it, I took Executor and roughly divided it in comparison with an Imperial II-class craft. I want to make sure this ship is heavily armed and capable of engaging other capital ships with great firepower from a distance. I was thinking of installing multi-purpose launchers in place of the Concussion Missile Tubes and Heavy Proton Torpedo launchers and stocking the ordnance chambers with 4-8 types of munitions, which would include probes, heavy rockets and space bombs (for the aforementioned capital ships), advanced concussion missiles and proton torpedoes, and a smattering of others as needed for each ship.
EDIT: This class's 96+ capacity for starfighter-scale ships means most of said craft will tend to be the usual specialized one- or two-man machines that are designed to deal with other opposing fighters. The remaining fighter-scale craft are probably geared more toward assault and might be used to mount bombing runs from outside starsystems or to further augment assaults on other capital ships. The attendant frigate(s) to most Sector Fleet groups are also there for the purpose of dealing with enemy fighters. So that means this class can focus on capital ship destruction from a distance, while simultaneously functioning as a fleet carrier and mounting raids if necessary. The space superiority starfighters can be armed with Advanced Concussion Missiles/Advanced Proton Torpedoes, and the slightly larger craft can be armed with bigger ammo for bombing runs, while this craft can focus on heavier ordnance.
EDIT 2: I am thinking of changing the name to the Lodestar-class Star Dreadnought because you guys are right, Blackguard has a pretty negative meaning. Though like I said, at first I just thought of a blackguard as an anti-paladin. Here are the definitions of "lodestar" and they seem to encapsulate the ship's role pretty well without any negativity:
Lodestar (lode'-star)
noun
1. a star that shows the way. (In this case, referring to the ship as the locus from which orders are issued.)
2. [archaic] Polaris.
3. something that serves as a guide or on which the attention is fixed. (Referring to the ship's role as leader and guide.)
What do you guys think of that? It's a unique name too and I like it very much.
_________________
The only words of explanation you need for any concept in the entire Star Wars universe are the words Science Fiction and Space Opera.
Last edited by Error on Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:49 pm; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Error wrote: | | Furthermore, for those thinking "Blackguard" is not an appropriate name for an Imperial class of Star Dreadnoughts, you must be forgetting (first and foremost Executor (One who executes...a plan or a being? [pretty unclear]) and Bellator (which literally means warrior or war-causer), followed by Harrower, Invincible, Conqueror, Centurion, Praetor, and Scythe-class ships (not sure if all are Imperial, but the trend is clear among Galactic shipbuilding to name classes after "intimidating" things). Plus, the class is meant to be a "black" "guard" (the background command ship for small sector fleets whose major role is to defend [by intervening if necessary] the other capital ships in the fleet, as well as being the nucleus from which orders come down). So the name fits it perfectly to me. |
I'm not forgetting anything. All of the examples I cited are verbs (Latin or close enough) ending in the "-or" conjugation, meaning "one who does [insert verb]."
Of your examples:The Harrower predates the Imperial Era by ~1,000 years
The Invincible is a Rendili Star Drives product
The Conqueror is a Clone Wars-era Confederacy vessel designed for atmospheric combat
The Centurion is a KOTOR-era ship.
The Scythe is a Mon Cal cruiser utilized after the Yuuzhan-Vong invasion.
The Praetor-Class is the only ship on your list that is a KDY ship produced during the Imperial era, and its class name follow the above pattern, literally "one who goes before others".
As such, the Blackguard, as an Imperial-era KDY product, does not follow the established SWU naming convention for KDY capital ships.
| Quote: | | For the worriers, I can explain that the name came down from Imperial fleet HQ rather than KDY itself when the class was ordered. They wanted something intimidating. How about that? lol |
You are perfectly welcome to do whatever you wish in your own universe, but when you come here with an idea, you should expect criticism based on established conventions from the canon and EU. To announce in mid-conversation, "well, this is MY universe, so I'm going to do what I want," is a very good way to make others lose interest.
| Quote: | | Everyone seems to have all these issues with my home-grown fictional fleet support craft...maybe I should just stop responding. If WEG had created this first and put it in a sourcebook or supplement somewhere, no one would think twice about it... |
But they didn't, so we don't. If you are looking for universal acclaim for your ideas, you are, perhaps, on the wrong internet. I have lost track of how many stats I have posted, and very, very few of them have escaped without criticism.
For myself, your craft is not of particular interest to me, as I have gone far down the path of my own version of re-writing official starship stats and combat in general. I offered a criticism based on my own knowledge of the EU, which you have essentially rejected based on the argument "Not in MY SWU." Fair enough; I've used that argument once or twice myself. Now, having said my piece, I think I'll move on.
On a final note, since this is a SW D6 website, I suggest putting your ship description in a D6 stat form for actual game use, rather than just a general description.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Error
Captain
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 680
Location: Any blackberry patch.
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | On a final note, since this is a SW D6 website, I suggest putting your ship description in a D6 stat form for actual game use, rather than just a general description. |
Check out my edits above. I'm sorry if I came across as rejecting your ideas, I actually took them to heart and thought of a better name.
I'm definitely not looking for acclaim. I'm also not perfect and can come off crass sometimes. Definitely not my intent at the end of the day! You in particular, CRMcNeill, I pay attention to your ideas very closely. You and Whill.
I post things here so I can get direct feedback about them, negative or not. Even the people I argue with give me good material. Since it's germane to my explanation here, I'll say that in light of my back-and-forth with Sutehp regarding the ambivalence of some parts of my description, I am actually in the middle of rewriting it. So please don't think I don't appreciate it all—I really do. I just get butthurt now and then when pet ideas don't work out. It's human, just like all the other things that irritate us...
As for the quip about the name coming down from Imperial fleet HQ, that was designed to get a laugh, not to be taken as a dismissal.
_________________
The only words of explanation you need for any concept in the entire Star Wars universe are the words Science Fiction and Space Opera. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Error wrote: | | What do you guys think of that? It's a unique name too and I like it very much. |
In keeping with my previous objection, here is a list of variations of Latin words for "guide" or "lead".
For example, a Rector means a "ruler, guide, leader, controller, director or master." As such, a Rector-Class Star Dreadnought would fit with KDY naming conventions and also have the intent of definition you are looking for.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Alternately, if your heart is set on Lodestone, it doesn't necessarily have to be a KDY product, either. It could be, for instance, a Seinar or Rendili ship, neither of which would be required to conform to KDY's naming conventions.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Error
Captain
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 680
Location: Any blackberry patch.
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Alternately, if your heart is set on Lodestone, it doesn't necessarily have to be a KDY product, either. It could be, for instance, a Seinar or Rendili ship, neither of which would be required to conform to KDY's naming conventions. |
Lodestar. Verrrry different. I'll change it to Seinar or something before I release another version to preserve the pattern you see.
Also, about converting it to D6 stats, how would be the best way to go about doing it? Find the Executor in one of the sourcebooks and go from there? I am a total newbie at this. From what I can tell, I really need to stat the armament, shields, hull, and a few other small things. Correct?
_________________
The only words of explanation you need for any concept in the entire Star Wars universe are the words Science Fiction and Space Opera. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Error wrote: | | Also, about converting it to D6 stats, how would be the best way to go about doing it? Find the Executor in one of the sourcebooks and go from there? I am a total newbie at this. From what I can tell, I really need to stat the armament, shields, hull, and a few other small things. Correct? |
It's mainly a matter of comparison, assigning weapons and stat values in proportion to other, similar ships. If you're looking at something in between an ISD and a SSD, the hull strength would be somewhere in between 7D and 10D Capital-Scale, and so on and so forth.
Here's a template I use for making stats look better when you post them to the forum.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10300
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Error, thanks for sharing your work.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | My main issue is that "Blackguard" breaks with the naming conventions of KDY SD classes: Venator, Acclamator, Tector, Praetor, Procurator, Imperator, Bellator, Executor... |
Yeah, there's so many different "SD" ship classes as it is, so I'm not looking to add original ones to my SWU anyway. I have to decide which EU ship classes exist in my SWU and which ones I'm just leaving out. Most of the time, an ISD in my game means 'Go the other way' or 'Escape now while you can.' These bigger ships are just in the background meant to inspire awe and fear.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Or just take the WEG Super-Class profile (which is markedly different from the Executor's profile) and call it the Superior-Class, thus maintaining as much of the WEG lineage as possible while leaving room for a full-up version of the Executor. |
I never noticed the KDY naming pattern (duh, it seems quite obvious now). Since I want WEG's stunted version of the Executor in my SWU, I renamed them Superior-class per your suggestion. Thanks! This Blackguard ship is relatively too close in size to WEG's 'dreadnought' so there doesn't seem to be any need for Blackguard-class ship my game.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ForbinProject
Commander
Joined: 16 May 2016
Posts: 318
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Since we're talking about naming conventions, and I'm not sure if this is general knowledge.
When a new ship class is built, the very first ship built and named is the name of the class of ships. At least that's how it's been done in the USN.
So if Error wanted to follow naming conventions he could still have a ship named Blackguard he just needs to change the name of the first ship in the class. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ForbinProject
Commander
Joined: 16 May 2016
Posts: 318
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Whill wrote: | | This Blackguard ship is relatively too close in size to WEG's 'dreadnought' so there doesn't seem to be any need for Blackguard-class ship my game. |
You may be surprised how similar different ship classes can be. Relatively "minor" changes ar justification for a brand new class of ship. 1 detail changes and boom new ship class.
Change in length
An upgrade in a weapon system
Better engines
Addition or increase in the number of fighters carried.
Improved sensors
Automation (reduction in number of crew needed)
etcetera
For a D6 game I would argue that whenever there is a stat change on a ship's template (for ship's being constructed at a shipyard for "mass" production) that is just cause for the creation of a new class ship. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10300
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ForbinProject wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | This Blackguard ship is relatively too close in size to WEG's 'dreadnought' so there doesn't seem to be any need for Blackguard-class ship in my game. |
You may be surprised how similar different ship classes can be. Relatively "minor" changes ar justification for a brand new class of ship. 1 detail changes and boom new ship class.
Change in length
An upgrade in a weapon system
Better engines
Addition or increase in the number of fighters carried.
Improved sensors
Automation (reduction in number of crew needed)
etcetera
For a D6 game I would argue that whenever there is a stat change on a ship's template (for ship's being constructed at a shipyard for "mass" production) that is just cause for the creation of a new class ship. |
I'm not surprised, but a 1.8 km difference in length is a lot more than a little detail change. However I'm not even suggesting it is unrealistic to have different classes of ship with small detail changes. I just don't see there being a large total number ships larger than ISDs in the classic era. The Empire is constructing a new larger Death Star during this time and gets the superweapon operational in only a few years. Resources for giant project would be limited.
Outside of the Death Stars, any class of ships this size is going to have four ships or more. The more classes you have, the more ships you have, and it starts to seem even crazier than these giant ships already are. I meant to say this thread's ship is relatively too close in size to WEG's 'dreadnought' for me, so there doesn't seem to be any need for it in my SWU. If anyone else can use this ship for their SW universe, then great. More power to ya!
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
