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Sutehp Commodore
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 1797 Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Solo4114 wrote: | I always thought that any sequel to the OT should be set several hundred years in the future, after many years of peace and prosperity. Basically, the OT heroes get to live happily ever after, but the galaxy goes through the same cycles. Only this time, it'd be a civil war WITHIN the reestablished Jedi order. |
In Legends that sort of thing has already been done to death with the KOTOR games, though I grant the point that that wouldn't have impacted the Skywalkers/Solos getting their happy ending since it was in the past and not the immediate future of the SWU. _________________ Sutehp's RPG Goodies
Only some of it is for D6 Star Wars.
Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them. |
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Falconer Commander
Joined: 08 Dec 2014 Posts: 315
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:47 am Post subject: |
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I have found that the five novels of Timothy Zahn — the Thrawn Trilogy and Duology — put a nice coda on the OT, hitting all the right notes and letting the story play out to its logical conclusion without ever at all undoing the RotJ ending. Along the way, they give you more “Adventures of Luke Skywalker” (and Han and Leia), which is very satisfying because it always seemed like something that should last for more than three episodes, like Flash Gordon or Tarzan or James Bond, just going on being awesome for quite some time. And they expand the universe and make it feel more real and also more mysterious and ripe for adventure. |
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Solo4114 Commander
Joined: 18 May 2017 Posts: 256
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Sutehp wrote: | Solo4114 wrote: | I always thought that any sequel to the OT should be set several hundred years in the future, after many years of peace and prosperity. Basically, the OT heroes get to live happily ever after, but the galaxy goes through the same cycles. Only this time, it'd be a civil war WITHIN the reestablished Jedi order. |
In Legends that sort of thing has already been done to death with the KOTOR games, though I grant the point that that wouldn't have impacted the Skywalkers/Solos getting their happy ending since it was in the past and not the immediate future of the SWU. |
I thought the KOTOR/TOR games were more Sith vs. Jedi. At least the one I played (partially -- never finished) was. |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10314 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Falconer wrote: | I have found that the five novels of Timothy Zahn — the Thrawn Trilogy and Duology — put a nice coda on the OT, hitting all the right notes and letting the story play out to its logical conclusion without ever at all undoing the RotJ ending. Along the way, they give you more “Adventures of Luke Skywalker” (and Han and Leia) |
After dramatically usurping the classic trinity at the conclusion of TLC, I assumed that the Duology was the further adventures of Mara Sue.
Solo4114 wrote: | I always thought that any sequel to the OT should be set several hundred years in the future, after many years of peace and prosperity. Basically, the OT heroes get to live happily ever after, but the galaxy goes through the same cycles. Only this time, it'd be a civil war WITHIN the reestablished Jedi order. |
That sounds cool. But then again, since the prequels were the prior generation to Luke and Leia, I like having the subsequent generation too. It's more symmetrical. After the sequel trilogy, I'd be totally cool with a big time jump ahead for future sequels. But I think they probably hope to keep the Rey brand going and do another trilogy with her, even if it's many years later and she is much older. _________________ *
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Falconer Commander
Joined: 08 Dec 2014 Posts: 315
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Whill wrote: | After dramatically usurping the classic trinity at the conclusion of TLC, I assumed that the Duology was the further adventures of Mara Sue. |
Did you feel the classic trinity got “dramatically usurped” in the Prequel Trilogy? In The Force Awakens or Rogue One?
So The Last Command is Mara Jade’s book; the title itself is a clear reference to her particular character arc. Not sure why the complaint. IMO she’s much less a Mary Sue than Luke or Anakin or Rey. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017 Posts: 1448
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Falconer wrote: | So The Last Command is Mara Jade’s book; the title itself is a clear reference to her particular character arc. |
Except that she's taken out of the story for quite a long time in her near death situation. |
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Falconer Commander
Joined: 08 Dec 2014 Posts: 315
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Same thing happened to first Luke and later Han in ESB. |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10314 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 4:29 am Post subject: |
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Falconer wrote: | Did you feel the classic trinity got “dramatically usurped” in the Prequel Trilogy? In The Force Awakens or Rogue One?
So The Last Command is Mara Jade’s book; the title itself is a clear reference to her particular character arc. Not sure why the complaint. IMO she’s much less a Mary Sue than Luke or Anakin or Rey. |
The classic trinity were children in the prequels, so no. The classic trinity wasn't in RO except for Leia's literally last scene appearance, and RO sets up the story of the classic trinity becoming the classic trinity. TFA is set 30 years after RotJ and the trinity are old. I always knew it was about the next generation, and Han's death was well-handled. I never expected the classic trinity to be the main protagonists of any of these sequels.
TTT is set only 5 years after RotJ. I thought the trinity where the main characters throughout the whole trilogy. I got that Mara was an important original character created by the author (an amalgamation of the classic trinity and Vader). The Noghri betrayal of Thrawn was beautiful. I completely agreed with Mara killing Luke's clone to satisfy her programming. But the classic trinity were still marginalized when Mara Jade defeated the dark jedi clone villain too. I was very disappointed with them being shoved completely aside in the climax. And yes, I get that the title of the book refers in part to Mara's programming from the emperor, but I had no idea how the story would end.
I felt like Mara was going to be the most important supporting character but the classic trinity would shine in the climax. I felt that the Thrawn trilogy, which I really enjoyed all the way to the climax, was a dramatic bait-and-switch. I think I might have liked the ending more if I had known all along that it wasn't going to be the classic trinity, or at least Luke, in the climax. Maybe the signs were there back in HttE and I missed them? All three of those books came out when I was in college and I had a lot on my plate when I read them.
And if you don't think Mara Jade is a Mary Sue, you must not have read Allegiance. She was an teenaged Imperial superhero who even bested Vader in a duel, much more absurd than anything a Star Wars film did. _________________ *
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Sutehp Commodore
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 1797 Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Concerning Mara Jade, I remember reading somewhere (probably TvTropes) that Zahn carefully and deliberately chose Mara Jade's name. "Mara" means "bitter" in Hebrew, and "Jade" is a reference to "jade-colored glasses" meaning someone with a cynical view of the world.
As to whether Mara Jade is a Mary Sue, I can't say with any certainty, as I'm told (again, via TvTropes) that there's not really a consensus as to what the definition of a Mary Sue even is. There are some common traits for it, sure, but I can't weigh in on that either way. _________________ Sutehp's RPG Goodies
Only some of it is for D6 Star Wars.
Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them. |
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Falconer Commander
Joined: 08 Dec 2014 Posts: 315
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Whill wrote: | TTT is set only 5 years after RotJ. I thought the trinity where the main characters throughout the whole trilogy. I got that Mara was an important original character created by the author (an amalgamation of the classic trinity and Vader). The Noghri betrayal of Thrawn was beautiful. I completely agreed with Mara killing Luke's clone to satisfy her programming. But the classic trinity were still marginalized when Mara Jade defeated the dark jedi clone villain too. I was very disappointed with them being shoved completely aside in the climax. And yes, I get that the title of the book refers in part to Mara's programming from the emperor, but I had no idea how the story would end.
I felt like Mara was going to be the most important supporting character but the classic trinity would shine in the climax. I felt that the Thrawn trilogy, which I really enjoyed all the way to the climax, was a dramatic bait-and-switch. I think I might have liked the ending more if I had known all along that it wasn't going to be the classic trinity, or at least Luke, in the climax. Maybe the signs were there back in HttE and I missed them? All three of those books came out when I was in college and I had a lot on my plate when I read them. |
That’s a good response, thank you. You know, I re-read TTT recently (after first hearing your criticism of the ending, and having it in mind), and, I kind of see where you’re coming from; I guess it just doesn’t bother me as much. She got the killing strike, but really it took the whole group (Luke, Leia, Han, Karrde). Anyway, to me, Luke had his big save-the-universe moment at the end of RotJ, and I think it would actually bother me a lot if Luke were just THE hero again, but, that’s just me.
You know, there’s a bombshell dropped in ESB about there being “another hope” other than Luke. For Zahn, that’s Mara Jade. In Dark Empire, it’s Leia. In TFA, it’s Rey. I like that.
Whill wrote: | And if you don't think Mara Jade is a Mary Sue, you must not have read Allegiance. |
I have not. |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10314 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Falconer wrote: | That’s a good response, thank you. You know, I re-read TTT recently (after first hearing your criticism of the ending, and having it in mind), and, I kind of see where you’re coming from; I guess it just doesn’t bother me as much. She got the killing strike, but really it took the whole group (Luke, Leia, Han, Karrde). Anyway, to me, Luke had his big save-the-universe moment at the end of RotJ, and I think it would actually bother me a lot if Luke were just THE hero again, but, that’s just me.
You know, there’s a bombshell dropped in ESB about there being “another hope” other than Luke. For Zahn, that’s Mara Jade. In Dark Empire, it’s Leia. In TFA, it’s Rey. I like that. |
In RotJ, it's Leia. I wish I had your frame of mind reading TLC in 1993. I was so excited going into it. I had even reread the first two books leading up TLC's release date and devoured the third book when I got it.
In ANH, Luke destroyed the Death Star. Epic. In RotJ, Luke's big moment was not crossing over to the Dark Side and it was actually Anakin who destroyed the Emperor. In TLC, I thought Luke would destroy the big bad dark side villain this time. With Han and Leia with Luke in the villain's lair, I thought they might be involved too, but I thought it would at least be Luke. I just didn't see what happened coming.
Falconer wrote: | Whill wrote: | And if you don't think Mara Jade is a Mary Sue, you must not have read Allegiance. She was an teenaged Imperial superhero who even bested Vader in a duel, much more absurd than anything a Star Wars film did. |
I have not. |
I don't recommend it. I also didn't like Outbound Flight, Zahn's novel set between TPM and AotC. But I still bought Scoundrels and plan to read it someday. I keep saying after each Zahn novel that will be the last one I read, but I keep reading them anyway. _________________ *
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cheshire Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004 Posts: 4834
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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I quit after Alliegence. Then I picked up Thrawn, and while I think the book had it's problems, I found it engaging enough of a read.
Thrawn started off a little too developed a character. I think that he could have been more challenged by the shadowy nemesis, and could have been more hindered by his lack of understanding of Imperial politics. In the end, it's still a fun read.
Though if the Mary Sue thing bugs you, then skip this one. The thing that made Thrawn a cool villain is that when the good guys thought they might have had him on the ropes, he pulls out a trick that he was keeping all to himself that let him get one up on the situation. That's much less cool if it's your protagonist doing it. It's hard to feel like he's going to be threatened as a character, if you know he's just going to pull a rabbit out of his hat. _________________ __________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10314 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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cheshire wrote: | I quit after Alliegence. Then I picked up Thrawn, and while I think the book had it's problems, I found it engaging enough of a read.
Thrawn started off a little too developed a character. I think that he could have been more challenged by the shadowy nemesis, and could have been more hindered by his lack of understanding of Imperial politics. In the end, it's still a fun read.
Though if the Mary Sue thing bugs you, then skip this one. The thing that made Thrawn a cool villain is that when the good guys thought they might have had him on the ropes, he pulls out a trick that he was keeping all to himself that let him get one up on the situation. That's much less cool if it's your protagonist doing it. It's hard to feel like he's going to be threatened as a character, if you know he's just going to pull a rabbit out of his hat. |
Thrawn ends up the hero of Outbound Flight too. The only villain protagonist SW books I've liked were Path of Destruction (the anti-hero's journey of Darth Bane) and Darth Plagueis (in which Palpatine was actually the protagonist). But Outbound Flight had many more problems than Thrawn being the protagonist. _________________ *
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Falconer Commander
Joined: 08 Dec 2014 Posts: 315
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 12:48 am Post subject: |
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Whill wrote: | In RotJ, it's Leia. |
Well, the way ESB sets it up is that if Luke fails, we’re going to need someone else to save the day. Yes, RotJ reveals Leia to be Luke’s sister, & yes, we’re meant to understand that she is probably who Yoda & Ben were talking about. But, dramatically, she doesn’t play that “another hope” role in RotJ; if anyone, it’s Anakin, as you point out.
Whill wrote: | I don't recommend [Allegiance]. I also didn't like Outbound Flight |
I’m going to stick with the 1990s stuff (Bantam-era/WEG-era) for now, in any case. There’s plenty enough to digest there. But I can definitely see the creeping Mary Sueism of Zahn’s characters (esp. Thrawn & Mara Jade), even though I don’t think it was bad in TTT itself. |
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Whill wrote: | I don't recommend it. I also didn't like Outbound Flight, Zahn's novel set between TPM and AotC. But I still bought Scoundrels and plan to read it someday. I keep saying after each Zahn novel that will be the last one I read, but I keep reading them anyway. | I just finished Scoundrels. Oceans 11 in a galaxy far, far away. OK, not great, but on the plus side nobody nerfs Han and while there are lots of specialist characters nobody shows up as a Mara Sue kind of character. (I love that term, BTW.) |
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