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atgxtg
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 Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
I think we will all agree that Lucas constantly changes his mind. |
Yup, but the problem is he doesn't admit that he's changed his mind and tries to retconn reality and claim that he never said or intended to do something. For instance Epsiodes VII-IX. He used to say it was a 9 part epic, but after the prequels he tried to claim that the story was about Anakin and over since Anakin was dead. That's what I mean about changing the story.
Lucas doesn't seem to realize or accept the fact that once something is out there, it's out there and he can just edit it away the way he can with a film scene. Hence the ""Greedo shot first" fiasco. Nobody except for Lucas liked that change, and it's not like he's fool anybody into forgetting the original version. Nor did the revised versions stop the demand of the (mostly) original version of the OT. [I still think the close the blast doors/open the blast doors bit is the edited version] |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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I have to agree with atgxtg. I'm a huge supporter of George Lucas, and have defended him repeatedly over the years.
That said, I've seen him deny that he said things that he absolutely did say in the past (as in, he was quoted). I think he's done it so much that he's forgotten what he's said (that is now in print) in years past.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting that chesh..
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think that Zahn is being a good soldier.
And I think he's right to point out that there may be room for parts of the EU and the new films to coexist. In terms of the actors'/characters' ages, we're now closing in on 40 ABY. All of Zahn's books (or, at least, the important ones) take place well before that.
Do you think that Abrams is going to go out of his way to establish a history that contradicts the EU? I don't think so. He'll probably have to establish some notion of what the characters have been doing for the intervening 35 years, but it's not written in stone that it will have to contradict the EU.
What EU stories do take place at around 40ABY? Are these stories that shouldn't be flushed? |
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The Brain
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | The Brain wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Anakin still returned from the Dark Side and killed the Emperor. |
Yes because killing the guy you always planned on usurping and killing anyways in order to save your own kid, totally atones for murdering a roomful of innocent trusting children. The Force has some weird accounting practices when it calculates karmic balance. |
I don't disagree with you, but I am not arguing for or against Anakin's absolution. But my quote was from part of a point about how the prequels did not undo the any classic trilogy focus on Luke. Anakin/Vader killing the Emperor was already the end of the saga long before the prequels and it now the end of the first 6 movies. Luke is still the central character of the classic trilogy as a whole despite this. |
I was using that as an example of how prequels can completely change the context of a major plot point. Before it was at least plausible that Anakin/Vader acted on what he thought was best for for the Republic/Empire misled by Palpy's manipulations, although assuming a sith lord is dealing straight with seems pretty foolish. However that one scene changes that view as he engages unquestionable act of evil. Furthermore it completely destroys any moral authority the jedi philosophy has, unless when Luke turns away a portal opens up and sucks Anakin/Vader into force hell.
| Whill wrote: | | And unless Vader was lying to Luke in RotJ (which is possible), Vader seems to have given up on his plan to kill the Emperor. "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." Just sayin'. |
Pfft...this in a universe where even the supposed good guys seem to have a penchant for mind rape and play fast and loose with the truth, you know from a certain point of view. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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IMO, anyone who is a Star Wars fan is going to have to accept a certain degree of implausibility. The real question is how much.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Nor did the revised versions stop the demand of the (mostly) original version of the OT |
For those who missed the 2006 DVDs with the original versions of the classic trilogy, I am sure that Disney will be happy to take the money of everyone willing to buy the unrevised versions by making it available again in some form. I'm guessing all of the previous films will have new home video releases in conjunction with the theatrical release of SW VII. Now Lucas' ego has been removed from the picture.
| atgxtg wrote: | Yup, but the problem is he doesn't admit that he's changed his mind and tries to retconn reality and claim that he never said or intended to do something. For instance Episodes VII-IX. He used to say it was a 9 part epic, but after the prequels he tried to claim that the story was about Anakin and over since Anakin was dead. That's what I mean about changing the story.
Lucas doesn't seem to realize or accept the fact that once something is out there, it's out there |
Actually, Lucas did not deny that there had been various ideas for a sequel trilogy (or two) over the years. But the sequel trilogies were always a further expansion of the original story (that started as one movie but became three). In 1980 he somewhat pulled the reigns on his wild delusions of grandeur with 9 or 12 movies when he decided to take the "other" (long-lost sister) and the Emperor's death out the sequel trilogy, and moved them into RotJ thus making the classic trilogy somewhat more conclusive. RotJ was the change to the story of the possible sequel trilogy, and that change occurred back in 1983. And the death of the Emperor also meant the resolution of Anakin's story.
Sure, over the years after RotJ Lucas changed his mind about whether more sequels and even the prequels would be made.
When Lucas did make the prequels, his statement about there being no more story because the PT+OT tells Anakin's story was not a change to the saga story. The backstory to the classic trilogy was always there, but his sequel trilogy ideas were never very developed. Lucas only said there was no more story because he wasn't going to make any more films, not as a denial of there ever had been sequel trilogies considered. Lucas' prior statements about the possible sequels were brought up in interview after interview during the prequel era, and he did not deny their existence.
What sequel trilogy ideas that weren't used in RotJ (and what Lucas may have added to them after the prequels were complete) were sold to Disney.
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 1:09 am Post subject: |
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The other thing to consider is that what Lucas said about his films is not necessarily canon anymore. What is in the films is.
The prophecy of the Chosen One who would bring balance to Force was debated by the prequel Jedi. In RotS, Yoda even said that the prophecy could have been misinterpreted. Obviously Obi-Wan and Yoda no longer believed Anakin was the Chosen One after RotS. Within the context of the prequels, there is evidence in the classic trilogy that supports Obi-Wan thinking Luke may be the Chosen One, with Yoda being more open to it being Luke or Leia. Anakin did return as a Jedi and kill his Sith master, but nowhere does the film exclusively state that Anakin actually fulfilled the prophecy. Lucas said that, but the film itself doesn't. And that suited Lucas well during the time he was trying to present his two trilogies as the complete saga.
I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas even provided his own ideas to Disney about how to possibly reinterpret that prophecy. Maybe Leia's son or daughter will be the Chosen One who will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. They've got to bring the Sith back somehow, right?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 1:37 am Post subject: |
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The sith will always re-emerge.
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Bobmalooga
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Sadly this comes as no real surprise to me, since Lucas has been ignoring the continuity of the novels pretty much since he did the prequels. But then again this doesn't bother me either, the novels (as good as some of them were...) weren't written cohesively with a continued narrative running through them (other than individual trilogies) until much later. Let's be honest here, I myself got tired of reading them when they trotted out super-weapon after super-weapon over and over again.
Would I have liked to have seen Mara Jade or the Solo kids in the movies? Sure. Am I glad that I'm not getting a film version of something that I read, that might not have been my favorite thing in the world? Sure I am.
Don't get me wrong, as a long time Comic Book fan I am very use to the idea that continuity gets wiped out and redone. Yeah it's sad, but those books and stories don't go away and there no less powerful in there telling. They just won't influence the movies or series in anyway, shape or form.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | The other thing to consider is that what Lucas said about his films is not necessarily canon anymore. What is in the films is.
The prophecy of the Chosen One who would bring balance to Force was debated by the prequel Jedi. In RotS, Yoda even said that the prophecy could have been misinterpreted. Obviously Obi-Wan and Yoda no longer believed Anakin was the Chosen One after RotS. Within the context of the prequels, there is evidence in the classic trilogy that supports Obi-Wan thinking Luke may be the Chosen One, with Yoda being more open to it being Luke or Leia. Anakin did return as a Jedi and kill his Sith master, but nowhere does the film exclusively state that Anakin actually fulfilled the prophecy. Lucas said that, but the film itself doesn't. And that suited Lucas well during the time he was trying to present his two trilogies as the complete saga.
I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas even provided his own ideas to Disney about how to possibly reinterpret that prophecy. Maybe Leia's son or daughter will be the Chosen One who will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. They've got to bring the Sith back somehow, right? |
Interesting idea, and you're right, I'd be almost shocked if they don't bring back the Sith.
I always thought (since EI anyway) that Anakin did bring balance to the Force, just not in the way that Yoda or the other Jedi intended.
It will be interesting if they do away with the "Rule of Two", something I think would really open things up and allow for more opportunities; after all, even Palpatine didn't seem to be always following it, nor did others like Vader.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | The sith will always re-emerge. |
I hope not. I makes the whole series pointless. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | They've got to bring the Sith back somehow, right? |
Why? Considering how many Dark Sider Force users we've seen in the EU and even in the Clone Wars TV series, they don't need to bring back the Sith.
All they need is a challenge for the Jedi. |
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The Brain
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | They've got to bring the Sith back somehow, right? |
Why? Considering how many Dark Sider Force users we've seen in the EU and even in the Clone Wars TV series, they don't need to bring back the Sith.
All they need is a challenge for the Jedi. |
Because we need evil force users who are snappy dressers, because nobody in the history of ever has looked cool walking around in public wearing a bathrobe. |
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The Brain
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Bobmalooga wrote: | | Sadly this comes as no real surprise to me, since Lucas has been ignoring the continuity of the novels pretty much since he did the prequels. But then again this doesn't bother me either, the novels (as good as some of them were...) weren't written cohesively with a continued narrative running through them (other than individual trilogies) until much later. Let's be honest here, I myself got tired of reading them when they trotted out super-weapon after super-weapon over and over again. |
Hey thats not fair the latter novels weren't just new super weapon of the week. Some were new no hint of their existence galactic invasion of the week! |
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