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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10300
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Quote: | | Dismissing the official stats simply because you think "they just made it up" is a silly idea and the very notion shows disrespect to the people of WEG, who made the game we all love. |
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and mine is such to disagree with this one. In my view, the WEG official stats body of work as a whole is clear evidence that there was absolutely no effort made to make the stats conform to one single guideline or to achieve any level of consistency whatsoever. The stats were submitted by a wide variety of independent authors, and some stats make sense while others are just off the wall. There is a lot of inconsistency and self-contradiction among the stats as a whole.
Some of the WEG contributors were just contract-authors writing something for a paycheck without ever having even played the game, and they had to include stats for NPCs, etc. It is obvious to me some of them got by with minimal understanding of the game mechanics. Just enough to get through an overall text editor (not a devoted line "stats" editor). Indeed, some of the stat contributors “just made it up”! |
| MasterKazur wrote: | | you personally don't view the WEG as official, it does not change that fact that they are, in fact, official. |
You don't like being misquoted, yet you do that to me? I wrote "WEG Official stats" - the words WEG and official are together. I do view WEG stats as official, and said so. That is the definition of "official" in the official vs. homebrew. Official stats published by WEG.
| MasterKazur wrote: | | I would take all of this seriously if it wasn't guess-work... your just guessing what that thing is... Please don't talk about these things if you're not gonna get your facts straight... Your comment on this makes no sense, and is based on incorrect information. |
Guessing? You haven't read very many of my posts, have you? I own the entire line of Star Wars WEG products. Every... Single... One. I've owned the WEG Star Wars RPG since the very week it came out in the Fall of 1987. I've been a GM for the game since 1988.
And what advantage could I possibly hope to gain by guessing? To what end would that serve? Why would I even bother guessing about something if I had to guess? Why would I have even posted in this thread? I don't need to guess. I, like many here, qualify as having an educated opinion. The use of the words guessing and guess-work is what makes no sense.
| MasterKazur wrote: | | personal opinions poorly disguised as fact. Sorry, man. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but thats not what you wrote. |
See the first bolded section in my post you quoted. I very clearly prefaced my post with the qualification of personal opinion/view. How accurate stats are is a subjective subject. A sentence you didn't quote from the end of my post was "All game stats are subjective interpretations of characters and things that exist in a fictional cinematic universe." Subjective means it is opinion based on our own personal view. I also wrote "If individual gamers want to put the whole body of WEG-published stats high on a pedestal of perfection despite their incongruity, fine. It’s your right to do so." That is further recognizing your right to your opinion in the last paragraph too.
| MasterKazur wrote: | | I think it's safe to say that there was a considerable effort put into the stats. Thats at least the way I look at it. |
You even use subjective-sounding language. "I think..." and "Thats at least the way I look at it". Good job there. However, by expecting me to present examples of official WEG stats being inconsistent, you seem to expect an argument instead of mere sharing of opinion. And I validated your opinion and all opinions with my post. Again, it is a subjective subject, and that was my main point.
| MasterKazur wrote: | | You make comments that WEG "obviously didn't have resources" to do this and that, but HOW is that obvious? ...I think we've all heard your views on this topic now |
"this and that" means more than one thing. That would be mis-quoting me. In my post, I only wrote one thing that WEG didn't have the resources to do: edit the stats.
You seem to take isue with my use of the world "obviously". I also said, "It is obvious to me some of them got by with minimal understanding of the game mechanics." I even italicized "to me" for emphasis. The word obvious refers to perception, so goes right along with use of the words "my view". By stating it is obvious to me, I am not stating it is obvious to everyone and I am not even stating that it should be obvious to everyone. Don't read into what I wrote. It is obvious to me, and that makes perfect sense to everyone else that also finds it obvious.
And HOW is that obvious? I'm sorry that my post didn't fill in all the answers and just begged a question from you. It was stating what my view was, and why. I had and still have no intention of presenting an argument with evidence that proves my point. If I had any interest in presenting an argument with examples that prove a point, then I wouldn't have worded my statements as subjective opinion. I would have worded it as a fact and presented all the evidence. The purpose of my post was not to convince you of anything. I was stating my opinion which just happened to contradict yours.
And since you asked for it, Bren posted a good example.
| MasterKazur wrote: | | the matter was closed before you posted. |
I started typing my post before your post stating you had let the matter go was posted, but for someone that has let it go you seem to have gotten worked up about the issue very easily...
| MasterKazur wrote: | | I seriously don't understand what you mean about getting nasty and criticizing other people's homebrew stats! ...and I'll just ignore the harsh, hostile tone |
Like the OP, I was mostly referring your behavior in the other thread in which a heated discussion errupted over something as silly as Obi-Wan Kenobi's stats. But in that thread and this one, you have shown that you are antagonistic and argumentative. MisterKasur, you the single most" harsh and hostile" person I have ever encountered on the Rancor Pit. Sadly, you do exhibit the classic behavior of a troll.
Look , I never said that your interpretation of Obi-Wan's stats was wrong. I merely stated that it is silly to argue over stat interpretations of characters. Not just silly for you. Silly for anyone, including those who argued with you about it. I wasn't only referring to you.
I would take you seriously if you stopped acting like a troll, apologized to the board for your negative behavior, and published your own stats of prequel Obi-Wan or whatever you guys were arguing about. There is no need have heated arguments about NPC stats. There is no need to even question someone's logic. Each GM should feel free to stat things however it works for you. And every GM is free to share his interpretation. There is room here for everyone's Obi-Wan stats, and none of them are incorrect for the GM who created them.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Whill, you and people like you are one of the main reasons we don't get many trolls on these forums. Your arguments are levelheaded and well reasoned. I find myself realizing how much re-statting I actually do (the ISD's armament, for one) and changing my position. Thank you.
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4834
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | MasterKazur
When everyone responding to your comments are taking offense, it may not be that they are overly sensitive, it may be your comments.
Whether you are right or wrong you come off HIGHLY insulting, and belittling to anyone that may disagree or think differently then you. You have constantly talk down to Bren, Whill, ZzaphodD, and Crmcneill in just this thread alone.
Honestly my question is why? I just don't understand the need to do that. Do you want to "win"? What is the prize?
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I've seen several examples in this thread that remind me very much of a close friend of mine. The general trend is to read MasterKazur's posts as insulting, demeaning, and patronizing from the very start. When we respond to him in turn, he is surprised and doesn't understand why we are attacking him. Generally, the person responding to him thinks, "How dare you accuse me of throwing the first punch!"
My assessment of this situation is that MasterKazur doesn't mean to be as insulting as he is. He isn't attacking, his turns of phrase are more abrasive and more pointed than is acceptable in the general acculturation of this board. We tend to read that as aggression. My friend does the same thing. He'll go into internet forums and "just raise questions" but he doesn't realize his tone projects an arrogant attack that he honestly doesn't mean. Then he's surprised when no one seems to like him on that forum.
I'd like to encourage us to take twofold action here. First, long term members, don't respond from a point of anger. It's easy to be emotional about the posts. They upset me, because his verbiage is a real turn off. If you want to kindly instruct him on the way we are used to speaking on this forum, please do. But don't make this a pissing contest. If you're upset, write your post in a word processor, wait 30 minutes, read it again, and then if the tone still seems appropriate, then post it.
Second, MasterKazur, I see your genuine surprise at the reactions of the people of this forum. Please take a moment to consider a few things. You are a person who seems to prize logic. I can assume that you've been trained to think critically and think outside the standard paradigms to which you are accustomed. I'd encourage you to examine this thread (and "that discussion") from another angle. Perhaps our rejection of you hasn't been that we don't like to hear different ideas. In fact, I can think of many times where we rationally have peaceable discussions where we absolutely do not agree with one another, but still we can get some benefit from each other's perspective. Perhaps it is because you are perceived as more aggressive than you feel. Though this may seem to be "our problem," you must understand that if you want to have a rational discussion, part of it is presentation. If you wish to have the discussions you seem to want, you will have to look at your posts and examine them from a different point of view. Once you've crafted them, please look through and ask, "Is this something that people are likely to take offense at reading?"
I think if we can cool down, be nice, and think about our word choices, then we can all have good discussion on this topic.[/i]
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | Was this about bears? |
Yes. I knew that they weren't true hibernators and mentioned that to the teacher. I'm not sure now that this was new information for her, but I'm pretty certain she didn't intend to present it to a bunch of first graders. 
Nice advice Cheshire. |
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Bren I did the same exact thing. We had animal specialist come into our school in 1st grade and tell us that Bear's aren't true hibernators. And then the next month our teacher is preaching that they were. Obviously she did not pay attention to our guest speaker.
Which I informed her of.
And which I didn't win any points for 
Sorry to detract the thread, but I thought it was pretty interesting we did the same correction.
And, I also agree with Cheshire. Sometimes I guess live and let live, if everyone is trying willing to do that. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | Sorry to detract the thread, but I thought it was pretty interesting we did the same correction. |
How funny. Yeah, I had heard that from an animal expert on a kids TV show. I was lucky, my teacher handled it pretty well.
And I think this thread is ready for a tangent or better still a quiet end.
Last edited by Bren on Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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It's funny, because I think there are several nuances that can be explored in the question, though I think that this thread thus far has become a bit too fraught with presupposition, accusation, and (rightly or wrongly) an assumption of negativity.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | It's funny, because I think there are several nuances that can be explored in the question, though I think that this thread thus far has become a bit too fraught with presupposition, accusation, and (rightly or wrongly) an assumption of negativity. |
Coincidentally I happened to look at the stats for some of the original characters from the Movie Trilogy Sourcebook along with the stat conversions to D6 in the fan made AotC sourcebook as I have been working through some ideas for revamping lightsaber dueling. Having a bunch of Jedi stats was useful in evaluating how different potential duelists might fair under revised rules. |
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MasterKazur
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Azai wrote: | MasterKazur
When everyone responding to your comments are taking offense, it may not be that they are overly sensitive, it may be your comments.
Whether you are right or wrong you come off HIGHLY insulting, and belittling to anyone that may disagree or think differently then you. You have constantly talk down to Bren, Whill, ZzaphodD, and Crmcneill in just this thread alone.
Honestly my question is why? I just don't understand the need to do that. Do you want to "win"? What is the prize?
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I've seen several examples in this thread that remind me very much of a close friend of mine. The general trend is to read MasterKazur's posts as insulting, demeaning, and patronizing from the very start. When we respond to him in turn, he is surprised and doesn't understand why we are attacking him. Generally, the person responding to him thinks, "How dare you accuse me of throwing the first punch!"
My assessment of this situation is that MasterKazur doesn't mean to be as insulting as he is. He isn't attacking, his turns of phrase are more abrasive and more pointed than is acceptable in the general acculturation of this board. We tend to read that as aggression. My friend does the same thing. He'll go into internet forums and "just raise questions" but he doesn't realize his tone projects an arrogant attack that he honestly doesn't mean. Then he's surprised when no one seems to like him on that forum.
I'd like to encourage us to take twofold action here. First, long term members, don't respond from a point of anger. It's easy to be emotional about the posts. They upset me, because his verbiage is a real turn off. If you want to kindly instruct him on the way we are used to speaking on this forum, please do. But don't make this a pissing contest. If you're upset, write your post in a word processor, wait 30 minutes, read it again, and then if the tone still seems appropriate, then post it.
Second, MasterKazur, I see your genuine surprise at the reactions of the people of this forum. Please take a moment to consider a few things. You are a person who seems to prize logic. I can assume that you've been trained to think critically and think outside the standard paradigms to which you are accustomed. I'd encourage you to examine this thread (and "that discussion") from another angle. Perhaps our rejection of you hasn't been that we don't like to hear different ideas. In fact, I can think of many times where we rationally have peaceable discussions where we absolutely do not agree with one another, but still we can get some benefit from each other's perspective. Perhaps it is because you are perceived as more aggressive than you feel. Though this may seem to be "our problem," you must understand that if you want to have a rational discussion, part of it is presentation. If you wish to have the discussions you seem to want, you will have to look at your posts and examine them from a different point of view. Once you've crafted them, please look through and ask, "Is this something that people are likely to take offense at reading?"
I think if we can cool down, be nice, and think about our word choices, then we can all have good discussion on this topic.[/i] |
I will certainly take this to heart. I think you're more right in what you say, that I probably realize right now.
I didn't read the responses directed at me, since my last post. I felt like I was talking to people who simply couldn't understand me (not just wouldn't). Or at the very least wouldn't allow themselves to undertand me and I wasn't gonna waste my time trying to reason with them anymore.
Because let's face it: Arguing over the internet is like running in the special olympics... Even if you win you're still retarded!
I appreciate that you at least try to understand where I'm coming from with my posts and questions. I'm simply fed with up the people on this board (and yes I know, I know: "we don't care"), and will probably take a break from posting comments here. It's a shame because I really like the idea of discussing the WEG game with other people here, but arguing with these people frustates me and ruins the fun of exploring the rules of the game.
It's like a person who loves music but he only has 5 year olds to discuss it with. I'm sorry if thats an arrogant statement but it's truly how I feel.
I'm not saying that ALL the people on these boards have limited intelligence, but some come off that way when questioned or challenged.
And again I must stress that if anyone wishes to discuss this matter further I will gladly respond to PM's. I will not respond to posts in this thread anymore, and anybody who posts a reply here will still be talking to themselves. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16180
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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How fortunate that we five-year-olds enjoy talking to ourselves.
| Cheshire wrote: | | It's funny, because I think there are several nuances that can be explored in the question, though I think that this thread thus far has become a bit too fraught with presupposition, accusation, and (rightly or wrongly) an assumption of negativity. |
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that most of the nuances of the discussion have been pretty well covered in various other topics of the forum. IMO, the main issue was (and is) that none of us are bound by what anyone else thinks should or should not be included in our SWU. If you see something you don't like, change it, and if you think the change is a good fit in general, tell others about it. That doesn't mean that they have to accept your changes if they don't want to. And it certainly doesn't give people the right to bully other forum members just for having a different perspective.
| Bren wrote: | | Coincidentally I happened to look at the stats for some of the original characters from the Movie Trilogy Sourcebook along with the stat conversions to D6 in the fan made AotC sourcebook as I have been working through some ideas for revamping lightsaber dueling. Having a bunch of Jedi stats was useful in evaluating how different potential duelists might fair under revised rules. |
I'd be interested in hearing those results...
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:10 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I'd be interested in hearing those results... |
Still working through the ideas. We will post when there is something that looks good enough to share. I fully expect the usual result for house rules - some will like it, some will hate it, some will feel 'meh' about it and ignore it.  |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| MasterKazur wrote: | I felt like I was talking to people who simply couldn't understand me (not just wouldn't). Or at the very least wouldn't allow themselves to undertand me and I wasn't gonna waste my time trying to reason with them anymore.
Because let's face it: Arguing over the internet is like running in the special olympics... Even if you win you're still retarded!
I appreciate that you at least try to understand where I'm coming from with my posts and questions. I'm simply fed with up the people on this board (and yes I know, I know: "we don't care"), and will probably take a break from posting comments here. It's a shame because I really like the idea of discussing the WEG game with other people here, but arguing with these people frustates me and ruins the fun of exploring the rules of the game.
It's like a person who loves music but he only has 5 year olds to discuss it with. I'm sorry if thats an arrogant statement but it's truly how I feel.
I'm not saying that ALL the people on these boards have limited intelligence, but some come off that way when questioned or challenged.
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No Chesire, youre wrong... 
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16180
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | No Chesire, youre wrong... |
Indeed. Cheshire, I respect your heartfelt attempt at moderation, but some people just refuse to be moderated.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4834
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Call me naive, but I don't think he sincerely meant to come out and call us all retarded 5-year olds.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16180
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Call me naive, but I don't think he sincerely meant to come out and call us all retarded 5-year olds. |
Well, speaking for myself, I will stand up and fight for your right to be naive (even if I don't entirely agree with it).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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