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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I am finding them tiresome as well and ultimately pointless. I apologize to others who were bored with the lengthy quotes. Once crmcneill has created a new tech toy, then like Humpty Dumpty, words (and canon) appear to mean whatever crmcneill wants them to mean "neither more nor less" and afterall, Ankhanu far more succinctly captured my response to the ultra-miniaturized supergun. |
Sounds more like a case of sour grapes to me. Every tech or stat disagreement you and I have had has been based on the simple fact that, for your own reasons, you feel that SW tech should be underdeveloped in certain areas, while I do not. Also in this case, I disagree with you on the nature of Palpatine's relationship with his royal guard. As I have been reminded so often, we are all entitled to our own interpretation of the SWU, yet you seem bent on imposing your interpretation on mine, which I find to be very hypocritical considering you are one of the ones who likes to reminds me.
I do not agree with your reasoning that Palpatine is motivated primarily by paranoia in his relationship with the Guard, nor do I believe that the Guard is a serious threat to him, armed with this weapon or otherwise. I do not believe that the Guard exists merely for show, or to act as meat shields in case blaster bolts start flying. I do not believe that the canon evidence supports your interpretation of events, nor do I agree with your opinion on the duties and limitations of the Guard. As evidenced by my posting of an altered version of the stats, I am willing to make changes in response to constructive criticism, but telling me that my idea is unfeasible based solely on personal opinion and tenuous interpretation of in-film and other evidence is not what I consider constructive.
Oh, and when you are done making Humpty Dumpty comparisons, perhaps you can finally give me a cogent response to my question about your contradictory reasoning with regards to stormtrooper and IG loyalty. Your only response was so vague and digressive that you may well have a bright future ahead of you as a politician.
Either way, I'm done with it. I often appreciate your input, but this is not one of those times. If you feel the need to get in the last word, go ahead.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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I still am not seeing it as the needlebeam attachment sounds like a field jury rig..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I'm seeing it as a permanent modification that is too precise for a field jury-rig. I can't see how something done on the fly (with the attendant possibility for mishaps) would be superior to something purpose-built in a armory somewhere.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard Blaster Pistol |
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This thread is making my brain hurt a little, but I think I found a way to contribute.
| crmcneill wrote: | | IIRC, FPs, CPs and DSPs can all be spent after the dice roll to counter a bad result. And its not like Palpatine is lacking in any of those three point values. |
According to my 2E rulebook:
FPs must be declared at the start, Calling on the Dark Side is somewhat ambiguous as far as when it can be done, and CPs can be spent after a roll.
As far as the gun, I think they would want the same thing I would want if I had 7D blaster. Something very accurate, very powerful, and simple to use. If I had those cloaks, I'd make them carbines.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard Blaster Pistol |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | According to my 2E rulebook:
FPs must be declared at the start, Calling on the Dark Side is somewhat ambiguous as far as when it can be done, and CPs can be spent after a roll. |
You're right. For some reason, I was thinking that things were different in 2R&E. There isn't anything specific for how many CPs can be spent on a defensive roll like this, but the rules put a cap of 5 on reaction skills and damage resistance, so I would guess that would be a good cap for spending CPs on Absorb/Dissipate.
| Quote: | | As far as the gun, I think they would want the same thing I would want if I had 7D blaster. Something very accurate, very powerful, and simple to use. If I had those cloaks, I'd make them carbines. |
That would work too, I guess; it just seems a little common to me. I had been batting around the idea of making a multi-function pistol a while ago, as an homage to the Half-Life spin-off game called The Gunman Chronicles, in which the character's primary weapon is a multi-function weapon blaster pistol that could be used in single-shot, rapid fire, charged-up shot or sniper mode. A shotgun was also available as an alternate weapon in the game, so I decided to incorporate a scatterblast function as an optional fire mode and combine with the charged-up shot blaster to make an under-barrel weapon that is essentially a blaster shotgun that can fire either a energy "shot" or an energy slug.
I knew from the beginning that the gun would be over the top, so I decided to make it only available to the one unit in the galaxy most likely to have access to the most advanced blaster tech: the Royal Guard. So here we are...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Sounds more like a case of sour grapes to me. |
| Quote: | | Oh, and when you are done making Humpty Dumpty comparisons, perhaps you can finally give me a cogent response to my question about your contradictory reasoning with regards to stormtrooper and IG loyalty. Your only response was so vague and digressive that you may well have a bright future ahead of you as a politician. |
I have answered this three times now. If you are actually interested in a response, try re-reading the previous post and tell me which words are confusing you. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I have answered this three times now. If you are actually interested in a response, try re-reading the previous post and tell me which words are confusing you. |
Okay, I'll try it one more time.
| Quote: | 2) Some comic book had Palpatine allowing some Grand Moffs to create their own stormtroopers without any loyalty to the Emperor resulting in an attempted coup or assassination.
3) On the other hand other sources state that all stormtroopers are fanatically loyal to the Emperor. (2) and (3) are in conflict.
As I said previously I find (2) highly unlikely and I reject it in favor of (3). |
So, just to be clear, your version of the canon does not accept the Crimson Empire comic series (Carnor Jax), the Star Wars: Empire series (featuring the "faked" stormtroopers), or Colonel Ven Northal (Cracken's Rebel Operatives), because all of these go against the official "canon" line that all Stormtroopers (and by extension the RG, since they are selected exclusively from the Stormtrooper Corps), are fanatically loyal and would never turn against Palpatine.
And then you turn around and try to assert that the Guard (which is selected entirely from the elite of this fanatically loyal stormtrooper corps) is a threat to Palpatine because they could potentially be disloyal and turn this weapon on him.
By arguing that stormtroopers and the IG are completely loyal and would never turn against Palpatine, then turning around and insinuating that the entirely loyal IG is a potential threat, you are arguing two points that contradict each other.
As I said before, pick one. You can't have both. And don't bother trying to tell me you are arguing two independent points, because that is nothing more than evasive bull$hit. If you say that you ascribe to the canon statement that all stormtroopers (including the IG) are fanatically loyal, then there is no way the IG could ever turn traitor and attempt to assassinate Palpatine. However, if you say that the IG is a potential threat, then you must discard the statement that all stormtroopers are fanatically loyal. These two points are fundamentally opposed. Pick one. You can't have both.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | I have answered this three times now. If you are actually interested in a response, try re-reading the previous post and tell me which words are confusing you. |
Okay, I'll try it one more time. |
Well here we go again. I know I hope this is the very last time.
| crmcneil wrote: | | Bren wrote: | 2) Some comic book had Palpatine allowing some Grand Moffs to create their own stormtroopers without any loyalty to the Emperor resulting in an attempted coup or assassination.
3) On the other hand other sources state that all stormtroopers are fanatically loyal to the Emperor. (2) and (3) are in conflict.
As I said previously I find (2) highly unlikely and I reject it in favor of (3). |
So, just to be clear, your version of the canon does not accept the Crimson Empire comic series (Carnor Jax), the Star Wars: Empire series (featuring the "faked" stormtroopers), or Colonel Ven Northal (Cracken's Rebel Operatives), because all of these go against the official "canon" line that all Stormtroopers (and by extension the RG, since they are selected exclusively from the Stormtrooper Corps), are fanatically loyal and would never turn against Palpatine. |
I really wish you would stop trying to put your words into my posts.
(i) I reject the notion that while Palpatine is Emperor he would allow the creation, by Grand Moffs of stormtroopers without indoctrinated loyalty to Emperor Palpatine. I find it highly unlikely Palpatine would allow this and see no reason to include it. It adds nothing to my SWU. I can live without the image of Palpatine's wine glass getting shattered and triggering a force lightning response. While that image may be uber cool to some, it seems childish and silly to me and out of character with my view of Palps.
(ii) I reject the Crimson Empire series with the Carnor Jax traitor Imperial Guard. Based on what I know that segment seems particularly silly. The guard training seems uniquely designed to kill the best candidates, turn one guard against another, and turn out troops lacking any unit cohesion and I'm not surprised that if used it would create traitor(s) for guards. No reason that I can see to include it in my SWU. Again, someone thought the image of the best of the guards being easily murdered by Vader was going to be uber cool.
(iii) Apparently Ven Northal is an IG that defected to the Rebellion. I didn't even recognize his name. Cracken's Rebel Operatives, is not high on my list of source material since our game is more about the players that a bunch of NPCs. I scanned Northal's back story. It's moderately interesting, sort of a stock loyal Imperial does a heel face turn and becomes a Rebel. I would find it more interesting if he remained in CompNor and then switched. I don't really like recruiting normal folks to become stormtroopers. I've long thought cloned stormtroopers made the most sense and since the prequel films came out, I strongly prefer the all clone trooper rationale. Northal could be an ex-Imperial CompForce or Army, but I don't see any reason to make Northal an ex-IG in my SWU. But then I also don't see any reason to adopt wholesale the whole supplement's worth of Operatives, except for Cracken himself. And just to make it very, very clear for you - I reject the idea that Northal was an IG before becoming a Rebel. Please note, I don't reject Northal's background and the comics you listed "because all of these go against the official 'canon.'" Those are your words and rationale. As I have said ad infinitum canon is pretty meaningless to me. I reject (1), (2), and (3) because all three seem implausible, uninteresting, redundant, or silly - to me - as I have stated more than once. You may not like my reasons bacause they don't rely on canon, but that's your problem, not mine. Parenthetically I don't see how you reconcile the canon conflicts of fanatically loyal traitors. But at the end of the day, that too is your problem, not mine.
| Quote: | | And then you turn around and try to assert that the Guard (which is selected entirely from the elite of this fanatically loyal stormtrooper corps) is a threat to Palpatine because they could potentially be disloyal and turn this weapon on him. |
Yes they could be a threat. Just because something hasn't been a threat yet, doesn't mean it may not ever be a threat in the future. "Always in motion the future is." I note that Vader acted like a loyal apprentice until he stopped being one. So Vader could be a threat even though at this time in my SWU he has been an outwardly loyal apprentice for 18 years. Longer, apparently, than any of the surviving cloned stormtroopers or IG troopers have served Palpatine.
The fact that you accept not one, not two, but at least three separate treacheries by stormtroopers or IGs should make it obvious that you have to accept the notion that the guard could be a threat, because in your SWU, based on canon sources, the guards already have been a threat. So I really don't see your point in arguing that they can't be a threat.
| Quote: | | By arguing that stormtroopers and the IG are completely loyal and would never turn against Palpatine, then turning around and insinuating that the entirely loyal IG is a potential threat, you are arguing two points that contradict each other. |
Well I would be if I accepted your reason as the only rationale for rejecting the silly stuff. But I don't actually.
| Quote: | As I said before, pick one. You can't have both.
And don't bother trying to tell me you are arguing two independent points, because that is nothing more than evasive bull$hit. If you say that you ascribe to the canon statement that all stormtroopers (including the IG) are fanatically loyal, then there is no way the IG could ever turn traitor and attempt to assassinate Palpatine. However, if you say that the IG is a potential threat, then you must discard the statement that all stormtroopers are fanatically loyal. These two points are fundamentally opposed. Pick one. You can't have both. |
Your mastery of Logic 101 is disturbingly lacking.
Premises:(P1) In my SWU all stormtroopers are indoctrinated to be fanatically loyal to the Emperor. And all stormtroopers have been loyal ito the Emperor from inception up to the current campaign date 3 months after the Battle of Yavin.
(P2) In the future it is possible that stormtroopers may become disloyal or work against the Emperor. Are P1 and P2 in conflict?
P1 makes a statement about the past, not about the future. P2 makes a statement about a possible future, not about the past. Therefore, P1 and P2 are not in conflict. It's pretty elementary logic.
Since you seem to be having a lot of trouble with this concept, I will provide an unrelated simple example that illlustrates the same logic.
Premises:(C1) Crmcneill has been alive every day of his life from inception to today.
(C2) In the future it is possible that crmcneill may not be alive. C1 and C2 are not contradictory. Neither are P1 and P2. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard Blaster Pistol |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Quote: | | As far as the gun, I think they would want the same thing I would want if I had 7D blaster. Something very accurate, very powerful, and simple to use. If I had those cloaks, I'd make them carbines. |
That would work too, I guess; it just seems a little common to me... |
Well how about an extremely rare long range disruptor carbine? Internals based on the MSD-32 with a longer barrel would provide enough epic to stave off the mundane, especially if somone is hit in the shin and then disintegrates in a blaze of light.
| Bren wrote: | Premises:(C1) Crmcneill has been alive every day of his life from inception to today.
(C2) In the future it is possible that crmcneill may not be alive. |
 Which should not be interpreted as a veiled threat
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard Blaster Pistol |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Bren wrote: | Premises:(C1) Crmcneill has been alive every day of his life from inception to today.
(C2) In the future it is possible that crmcneill may not be alive. |
Which should not be interpreted as a veiled threat |
 It was intended as a homage to one of the most famous Aristotelian syllogisms:Major premise: All men are mortal.
Minor premise: Socrates is a man.
Conclusion: Socrates is mortal. I'm very sorry if anything threatening seemed to be implied. No threat was intended. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:45 am Post subject: |
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So, in your SWU, 20+ years after the Clone Wars, the stormtroopers have never once shown any sign of disloyalty. But that doesn't mean they won't ever be disloyal... Yeah, pretty much the same verbal bob-and-weave I was expecting.
Your premise seems based on the idea of Palpatine being motivated by paranoia, a premise that is not supported by the evidence. Palpatine displayed supreme overconfidence, bordering on megalomania (although if anyone in the SWU was entitled to delusions of wealth, power, and/or omnipotence, it would be him). The Guard was never a threat to him, armed with this weapon or not; not because of any assumption of absolute loyalty, but because even if one or more of them did become disloyal, they were still so far outclassed by Darth Sidious that any assassination attempt by a non-FS would be futile.
Anyways, whatever. I've covered all your objections in that last mega-post, and I'm not going to rehash the whole thing. If you want Palpatine to be a paranoid who is afraid of his own bodyguard in your campaign, you go right ahead, but leave off the hypocrisy and stop trying to tell me to do the same thing in mine.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard Blaster Pistol |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Well how about an extremely rare long range disruptor carbine? Internals based on the MSD-32 with a longer barrel would provide enough epic to stave off the mundane, especially if somone is hit in the shin and then disintegrates in a blaze of light. |
It's a thought. My only objection would be if disruptors don't have a stun setting (which I'm pretty sure they don't), because that then precludes the possibility of taking a target unharmed (or intact).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Just as a friendly reminder/FYI in general. For those who adhere to official canon, an official aspect of it is that NO game states are canon. Not that you have to care about canon, but if you do, then you can't disregard this rule. Game stats should be re-interpreted to match canon if they don't (and IMO, many do not).
According to film canon, Palpatine never was successfully assasinated by IG or anyone because we see his death at the hands of Anakin Skywalker in ROTJ. And as far as I know, even the EU-ressurected Palps was not killed by any IG or super-gun. So with my top point and this one, debating how much energy Palpatine could absorb is an excercise in futility.
In my Star Wars Universe, there may have possibly been assasination attempts on Palpatine because the vast majority of the galaxy didn't even know he was Force-sensative, let alone a powerful Sith Lord. These were all foiled by high security, or if any would-be assasins somehow got through that, then by meeting the full wrath of the Dark Side of the Force (and they wouldn't survive to tell anyone about it).
For my game, it is not necessary to even have stats for Palpatine because any of these possible failed assasination attempts would be pure plot points, all happening off-screen (I won't pit any PCs against Palps and they wouldn't be around for any NPC assasination attempts). I don't even roll dice for NPC vs. NPC unless it somehow involves the PCs.
Paranoia is a natural side-effect of meglomania. There is filmic and EU canonical evidence of both in Palpatine. He tells Anakin that all who posess power are afraid to lose it. Palpatine is portrayed as someone who spreads the power of those underneath around so no one person has too much. And he actively maintains a competitive spirit among them to minimize them conspiring against him. Vader, his #2 Sith-wise doesn't get command of the Death Star - Grand Moff Tarkin (a non-Force-user) gets it and on the Death Star, Tarkin gives the orders. Palps pits his high-ranking military officers, moffs and advisors against each other. Palpatine always stayed holed-away on Coruscant and rarely ever left the planet, but it was said that when necessary, Palpatine travelled among his own fleet by a cloaked shuttle - that's paranoia big-time. And one way to prevent insurrection within the grand stormtrooper corp is for them to programmed to be fanatically loyal.
For my Star Wars Universe, I think it is reasonable that a small percentage of clonetrooper commanders may have not followed Order 66. These clones were personalized and humanized by their Jedi superiors over the course of the war, and just refused to accept that the Jedi Order had rebelled against Palpatine and/or that their direct Jedi superiors were a part of the plot. But obviously some personalized and humanized clones like Commander Cody still blindly followed the order anyway despite his fondness for General Kenobi. So any clones that disobeyed the order also likely had some infrequently occuring imperfections in the cloning or brainwashing process to not follow it. Some of these clones may have fled the conflict and others may even joined the Jedi in an early rebellion against the new Empire (which fits nicely in with my Universe's "Imperial Clone Wars", multiple simultaneous conflicts born out of the Great Clone War in the days of the early Empire that later help explain the change in plurality between Eps III and IV - "this war" singular to "the Clone Wars" plural). If the Empire had analyzed the clones that failed to follow the order and found any patterns or connections between them, it is also extremely likely that Palpatine might even order that other clones from the same batches also be destroyed to not take any chances on disloyalty in the future.
But that effort may not have been perfect and a few Imperial stormtroopers may have also deserted the Empire (which fits nicely in with my desire to have Kaminoan Human Clones, former clone/stormtroopers that are a player character race to choose from). But even with these few and far between exceptions to 100% Imperial loyalty in my SWU, no stormtroopers ever attempted to assasinate Palpatine. IG are supposed to be the best of the best stormtroopers, so there is no way that any disloyal troopers would have made it through the trials and screening process to become OGs. Im my SWU, the very tiny % of troopers that were disloyal to Palps were all killed or left the Empire. None of them stayed in service to the Empire and hopelessly tried to take it down from within. Even a cloned Imperial goon is not that stupid.
But that doesn't mean I think it is OK for IG to have super-guns. Because clone/stormtrooper creation/development/analysis is not 100% perfect and Palpatine's paranoia, Palpatine still wouldn't want to take chances that they might rebel or their identity (and armor/weapons) might be assumed by someone else to get into assasination position. Palpatine could fend for himself, but I think he mostly depended on IG skill and reputation to protect him than silly "super-guns".
Also, it would be pretty-much pointless for me to stat out IGs and their weapons because if my PCs are never going to be the poximity of Palps, then they are not likely to ever encounter IGs either, because they primarily only guard the Emperor. So whether a IG gun was special or not, whether PCs could tell the difference or not, and whether it had some booby trap for non-IG users or sensors to prevent it from being pointed at Palpatine is all irrelevant to my game anyway. My PCs will never find out so it's minutia.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | So, the original equipment for the Imperial Guard lists them as having a heavy blaster pistol. How boring is that? I decided to work up a weapon that is not only very scary for the characters to face (especially in the hands of an Imperial Guardsman), but one that is very difficult for them to take and use for themselves...
Thoughts? |
| crmcneill wrote: | | If you want Palpatine to be a paranoid who is afraid of his own bodyguard in your campaign, you go right ahead, but leave off the hypocrisy and stop trying to tell me to do the same thing in mine. |
crmcneil, I've noticed you have a tendency to ask for input from others, but then reject it when you get it. If you want other thoughts, you are going to get them. It is unrealistic for you to expect all outside opinions and views to agree with yours. Is that why you really ask for "thoughts"? Only to get approval? Do you actually expect a lot of responses that just say, "good work", "nice job", "I love it." If you want praise, you are going to have to take all the criticism that comes with it. It's an open forum. You may not agree with the criticisms and don't have to. Criticisms may make you re-think your idea or they may even reinforce your original position. Take it or leave it.
Some of your responses to Bren come across as sounding like, "Don't disagree with me."
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | So, in your SWU, 20+ years after the Clone Wars, the stormtroopers have never once shown any sign of disloyalty. But that doesn't mean they won't ever be disloyal... Yeah, pretty much the same verbal bob-and-weave I was expecting. |
Well, to be fair, a lot of things that hasnt happened for 20+ years do seem to happen eventually....
Not going into the whole arguement, but Id assume that any paranoid dictator (sith nor not) wouldnt count on absolute loyalty from his troops. Even the hardcore fanatical ones. This would obviously be the case for Palpatine as well....
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