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Bren
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 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| I find the prequel ships frustrating since their performance and WotC stats frequently makes them equal to and often superior in performance to the vessels in the original trilogy. Which makes adoption of ships like the TIE fighter hard to rationalize. Our earthly experience has few instances of replacing effective military technology with less effective technology. I often think that the stats would make more sense and accord with advancing technology if space 10 is a different (and lower) speed in the Clone Wars than space 10 during the Empire. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I find the prequel ships frustrating since their performance and WotC stats frequently makes them equal to and often superior in performance to the vessels in the original trilogy. Which makes adoption of ships like the TIE fighter hard to rationalize. Our earthly experience has few instances of replacing effective military technology with less effective technology. I often think that the stats would make more sense and accord with advancing technology if space 10 is a different (and lower) speed in the Clone Wars than space 10 during the Empire. |
I agree. The one that gets me is the stats for the V-Wing (as listed in the Starship Stats compilation). It has a Speed of 15 and a maneuverability of 4D+1, plus 1D of shields. There might be economic reasons for downgrading from such a fast, maneuverable ship to the TIE fighter, but whoever did up those stats forgot that the A-Wing is supposed to be the fastest starfighter in the galaxy (Speed 12, Maneuver 4D). There is a more realistic version (IMO) on the D6 Holocron Wiki that cuts the speed to 8. I figure that a more reasonable cap on starship speeds for Clone Wars era ships would be a 9 or, at the most, 10.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I figure that a more reasonable cap on starship speeds for Clone Wars era ships would be a 9 or, at the most, 10. |
Yes. It's hard to justify the Alliance using speed 7 and 8 starfighers throughout the first two films if 20 years earlier there were much faster ships available. But I guess we have WotC/SAGA to thank for that. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | It's hard to justify the Alliance using speed 7 and 8 starfighers throughout the first two films if 20 years earlier there were much faster ships available. But I guess we have WotC/SAGA to thank for that. |
Another factor is fans doing stat conversions on the fly without stopping to consider how their D20-converted-to-D6 stat fits in with WEG has already published. The way I play it, the Eta-2 was the fastest of its time, with a Space of 9, the V-Wing and the V-19 Torrent were just behind at 8, and the ARC-170 was at 6.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Much more reasonable.  |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Much more reasonable. |
I have my moments. Next up is a TIE fighter with a Superlaser. Let me know what you think 
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Much more reasonable. |
I have my moments. Next up is a TIE fighter with a Superlaser. Let me know what you think |
Is it called Suncrusher? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Is it called Suncrusher? |
Why? Is that taken?
If so, it must be a KJA invention. Reading his novels was so traumatic that I appear to have blocked out the memory...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | If so, it must be a KJA invention. Reading his novels was so traumatic that I appear to have blocked out the memory... |
Yeah, I'm with you pal. What Jedi Academy Trilogy? 8)
After the Jedi starfighter from AotC, I liked the idea that starfighters never had the capability to go into hyperspace until sometime before the end of the Clone Wars. (And no, I would personally not do the "transmitted" hyperdrive ability or ships carried in a "hyper-bubble" or whatever. I'm into Star Trek but that is even too warp-field trekkie to my Star Wars sensabilities.
The AotC and complete Incredible Cross-Sections books have a diagram of the Naboo cruiser carrying the Naboo fighter escort, attached to the wings. That's how the Naboo fighters that don't have hyperdrives of their own can fly through hyperspace, to disengage and continue to follow their mission of protection when the ship re-enters real space. I'm ok with fighters being accounted for in the design of the cruiser and the capabilities of the ship's navicomputer when the fighers are attached to the hyperdrive ship.
I'm even ok with corrdinates being calculated by one astrogator using one navicomputer and then transmitting them to nearby hyper-capable fighters making nearly-identical jumps at nearly identical times. But each ship not attached to a bigger ship .
As far as WOTC having awful stats, I agree to just change them to something that makes more sense.
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I find the prequel ships frustrating since their performance and WotC stats frequently makes them equal to and often superior in performance to the vessels in the original trilogy. Which makes adoption of ships like the TIE fighter hard to rationalize. Our earthly experience has few instances of replacing effective military technology with less effective technology. I often think that the stats would make more sense and accord with advancing technology if space 10 is a different (and lower) speed in the Clone Wars than space 10 during the Empire. |
I was thinking of a 'scaling' system based on when the ship is constructed..
but it was too much effort to be worthwhile..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Yeah, I'm with you pal. What Jedi Academy Trilogy? 8) |
I once saw this homemade fan film called Crapisode I. It parodied a lot of the stuff that we all hate about the prequels. This one section of dialogue always stood out:
Vader: George never told you about Episodes 7, 8 and 9.
Luke: He told me enough. He said he wasn't going to make them.
Vader: Noo. Kevin Anderson is going to make them
Luke: NOOOOOOOOOO!
| Quote: | | After the Jedi starfighter from AotC, I liked the idea that starfighters never had the capability to go into hyperspace until sometime before the end of the Clone Wars. |
The thing that threw me was that the starfighter was completely inappropriate for the mission they sent Obi-wan on. His instructions were to capture Jango Fett and bring him back to the Jedi temple for questioning. How exactly was Ob-wan supposed to do that; strap him to the bumper? A better fit would've been a combat modified shuttle. Jedi starfighters work fine for straight-up combat missions, but a peacekeeper needs a vessel with a little more versatility (like the ability to transport live prisoners).
Apart from that, I have no problem with the larger Clone Wars era starfighters being hyperspace capable. In my Rebellion-era campaign, I even allow V-Wings and Eta-2's to swap out the astromech slot for a x2 hyperdrive with a 2 jump nav computer.
| Quote: | | I'm even ok with corrdinates being calculated by one astrogator using one navicomputer and then transmitting them to nearby hyper-capable fighters making nearly-identical jumps at nearly identical times. But each ship not attached to a bigger ship . |
What would the rules for that be, I wonder? And what would the chances be of an enemy decoding the transmitted coordinates and following? The Cracken Twist comes to mind... Tactically speaking, it would probably be best to use a Cracken Twist to make a jump of a few lightyears in length, then drop out of hyperspace in interplanetary space and recalculate a regular jump when no one is around to listen in.
| Quote: | | As far as WOTC having awful stats, I agree to just change them to something that makes more sense. |
I agree.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | The thing that threw me was that the starfighter was completely inappropriate for the mission they sent Obi-wan on. His instructions were to capture Jango Fett and bring him back to the Jedi temple for questioning. How exactly was Ob-wan supposed to do that; strap him to the bumper? |
No silly. Just load him in the trunk - I mean the spare parts locker. 
| Quote: | | Whill wrote: | | I'm even ok with corrdinates being calculated by one astrogator using one navicomputer and then transmitting them to nearby hyper-capable fighters making nearly-identical jumps at nearly identical times. But each ship not attached to a bigger ship . |
What would the rules for that be, I wonder? And what would the chances be of an enemy decoding the transmitted coordinates and following? |
Well we just transmit the coordinates. Sort of like how one communicates with other ships normally. It is used very frequently in the Rogue Squadron novels. Unless the GM is looking for a complication we just assume that the coordinates are transmittted and received successfully. If we want to make it a bit harder, we require the other ships navigator or astromech to make a roll, but with a low difficulty due to receiving a set of coordinates.
Intercepting coordinates would be like intercepting any other transmission. Typically I assume most transmissions are broadcast on a secure frequency, in code, scrambled, or sent by tightbeam transmission - minimizing the chance of useful detection. Now if the enemy has broken your code, that could be a problem - but no more so that if the commander ordered everyone to rendezvous at Sullust and they calculated their own coordinates individually.
Also, unless you transmit coordinates you are likely to get a scattered arrival with ships appearing seconds, minutes, or fractions of a lightyear away from each other or worse yet arriving in the same spot at the same time. I assume some type of shared coordinates (with appropriately agreed minor changes to avoid collisions*) is a requiretment for squadron and fleet movement.
*Which would/could require someone to make an additional navigation roll. |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | Also, unless you transmit coordinates you are likely to get a scattered arrival with ships appearing seconds, minutes, or fractions of a lightyear away from each other or worse yet arriving in the same spot at the same time. I assume some type of shared coordinates (with appropriately agreed minor changes to avoid collisions*) is a requiretment for squadron and fleet movement.
*Which would/could require someone to make an additional navigation roll. |
That seems fair. I know the Imperial Navy OOB in the ImpSB includes a Navigation division as part of the support fleet that is responsible for coordinating hyperspace jumps and making sure that groups of ships make coordinated hyperspace jumps.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Yeah, I'm with you pal. What Jedi Academy Trilogy? 8) |
I once saw this homemade fan film called Crapisode I. It parodied a lot of the stuff that we all hate about the prequels. This one section of dialogue always stood out:
Vader: George never told you about Episodes 7, 8 and 9.
Luke: He told me enough. He said he wasn't going to make them.
Vader: Noo. Kevin Anderson is going to make them
Luke: NOOOOOOOOOO! |
That is funny.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | After the Jedi starfighter from AotC, I liked the idea that starfighters never had the capability to go into hyperspace until sometime before the end of the Clone Wars. |
| crmcneill wrote: | | The thing that threw me was that the starfighter was completely inappropriate for the mission they sent Obi-wan on. His instructions were to capture Jango Fett and bring him back to the Jedi temple for questioning. How exactly was Ob-wan supposed to do that; strap him to the bumper? |
| Bren wrote: | | No silly. Just load him in the trunk - I mean the spare parts locker. |
When Obi-Wan left Coruscant in the starfighter, his mission was NOT to capture Jango Fett and bring him back to the Jedi temple for questioning. His mission was to investigate the cloners in the Kamino system (erased from the Jedi archives) towards the end of solving the plot to assasinate Senator Amidala. Taking a fighter was a wise precaution because he didn't know what hostilities he might run into when he got there. He had no idea at the time that he would actually run into the rocket-man that shot the Kamino saberdart. He didn't actually receive the order to capture Fett alive until he was reporting in to the Jedi Council after he had already been on the planet Kamino and encountered Fett. Since Obi-Wan didn't complain to his masters that he didn't have anywhere to put Fett I just assumed that he wasn't worried about it because he was planning on impovising. Jedi Knights do that sometimes. Perhaps Obi-Wan reasoned that at least Fett himself would have a starship in the city somewhere he could use. Obi-Wan could have flown Slave 1!
| crmcneill wrote: | | A better fit would've been a combat modified shuttle. Jedi starfighters work fine for straight-up combat missions, but a peacekeeper needs a vessel with a little more versatility (like the ability to transport live prisoners). |
See above, but also as an out-of-universe response, a shuttle wouldn't have been nearly as convincing in making all those incredible maneuvers through the asteroid field near Geonosis. I'm glad that Obi-Wan didn't capture Fett on Kamino because the Jedi starfighter is just awesome in that.
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