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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Doesn't the same "ZAP-kill" apply to all forms of combat though? OR just for force powers? |
For high level Sith using a Force point the damage totals are much higher than for the vast majority of weapons. If it helps, think of it as dramatically similar to a self destruct with a timer.  |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I always figured that Palpatine was "pulling his punches" and keeping Luke immobilized in pain so that he could monologue before delivering the coup de grace. |
I agree. I think that Palpatine could have killed him sooner but was holding back just because he is evil and he wanted to see him suffer first. So most of the force lightning was just causing pain. Then when Palpatine says, "Now young Skywalker, you will die." He turns on the kill switch and it starts to become lethel. The more dramatic turn of the musical score at that point suggests that as well, plus it is more cinematically dramatic if Luke was actually about to die when he was saved by his father. I'm not saying this reconciles with RAW or anything - Here I'm just commenting more on the movie side of the discussion.
But yeah, it doesn't sense if Palpatine was using a potentially lethel attack and taking the chance of accidently killing Luke in the first 5 seconds and thus lose out on all that gloating. And it also wouldn't make sense to interpret it that Palpatine was just not rolling high enough so kept trying, but then told him he would die when really he might just keep failing to roll high enough. "OK, NOW you will die... OK really, NOW I mean it... Oh, you're toast now, dude... Come one blue lightning, kill this freakin' kid already!... Dammit Vader, don't just stand there, kick him or something until the awesome might of the Dark Side finally kills this punk... Oh hell, where did I put my lightsaber?!...
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Star Wars D6 Damage |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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I don't use the half Alter method for Force Lightning damage. It's supposed to be a pretty formidable power, so I make it full Alter, but the Sith is allowed to inflict normal or stunning damage, and can also choose to reduce the level of damage inflicted. It allows them to do full-on blasts that can take out speeders and some walkers, or to dial it down and toy with a helpless enemy (ala ROTJ).
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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I can't remember which of the books it is, but 1 source lists FL as being Alter damage, but another source lists it as half... IIRC the former is the tales of the jedi, while the latter was the dark empire source book..
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:46 am Post subject: |
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I have been thinking of different ways to make force powers more interesting. Lately it has taken the path of making force powers into skills with separate dice based on the different Force Abilities (ie RAW skills).
I started with a simpler approach that is starting to become more attractive again. Introduce different 'Mastery Levels' for the Force Powers. That would be from Novice to Master, perhaps 4 or 5 steps in total. Novice will start under the RAW force power and highter degrees will give you free 'perks'. This might be higher damage, but given force lightning perhaps being able to target more people. To throw someone/something fast with telekinesis perhaps will require one step above 'standard RAW' (which is at base diff. 10m/round).
The idea is that to aquire novice level should cost slightly less than the RAW cost, and reaching 'Journeyman' (ie force power RAW level) would cost slightly more. This is balanced by the ability to tailor you powers by focusing on some powers, making them more powerful than having to raise the Force Skills to get better at all powers.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
Doesn't the same "ZAP-kill" apply to all forms of combat though? OR just for force powers? |
It would apply to all forms of combat involving major characters. In heroic cinema the major characters are awarded this protection, but minor characters and extras can get "ZAP-killed". The stormtroopers keel over dead when s***, while Princess Leia gets a flesh wound. Biggs goes up in a fireball, while Luke just looses his R2.
Spirit of the Century has some neat game mechanics that mimicked this type of thing, but it wouldn't translate directly into Star Wars D6. Basically character had two options.
The first was to take a complication in order to avoid damage. For instance dropping your lightsaber, or falling into the carbonite pit freezing rather than getting hit (and probably cut in half).
The second was the idea of a concession. A player would do this, and essentially lose the fight rather than get defeated and deal wiith what would most likely be far more severe consequences. For instance, if Luke were fighting Vader on Clud City, got a hand chopped off, disarmed, and being overwhelmed when Vader reveals his identity as Luke father, in SOTC terms Luke would be low on points of his damage track, and rather than continue on and be defeated, when Vader can set the terms of defeat, Luke's player could offer a concession. Like faling down the central shaft and hanging on the underside of the city for dear life.
It's a neat mechanic. It doesn't quite work in D6, nr should it necessarily be ported over. Butt it is interesting, and does illustrate the difference between the RPG and the films.
However, my "beef" with the RAw here is in how Force Lighting and Injure/Kill work in the RPG compared to on screen. In the RPG Vader makes his die rolls and somebody keels over dead from Injure/Kill in the same round. On screen it takes a few rounds. Hence my ide of applying 1 "wound level" per turn. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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So hows about the total damage given in the "Initial" roll IS applied from stun, to wound, to wound twice, to incap, to moral, to dead.. with no chance the victim can stop it. BUT others might get a chance..
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So hows about the total damage given in the "Initial" roll IS applied from stun, to wound, to wound twice, to incap, to moral, to dead.. with no chance the victim can stop it. BUT others might get a chance.. |
That could work. Practically speaking, what do you see differently about how that would work from what atgxtg had proposed? |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So hows about the total damage given in the "Initial" roll IS applied from stun, to wound, to wound twice, to incap, to moral, to dead.. with no chance the victim can stop it. BUT others might get a chance.. |
That is pretty much what I was thinking. You get the damage, but it takes time to apply.
What I was thinking was something like treating the power as being "kept up" and "combined" with itself. So the Sith could roll damage once, and then add 1D to the total each turn, basically raising his damage score. But 1 WL per turn is pretty much the same thing, and a bit dimplier.
I think I'll use that method for my house rule, thanks. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
What I was thinking was something like treating the power as being "kept up" and "combined" with itself. So the Sith could roll damage once, and then add 1D to the total each turn, |
Unless the base damage was low as hell, you still run into the chance of them getting a 'zap-kill' from the get go though.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: |
What I was thinking was something like treating the power as being "kept up" and "combined" with itself. So the Sith could roll damage once, and then add 1D to the total each turn, |
Unless the base damage was low as hell, you still run into the chance of them getting a 'zap-kill' from the get go though. |
Yes. I think we are deciding that we like your proposal (roll damage but apply 1 WL per round) better.  |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Quote: |
What I was thinking was something like treating the power as being "kept up" and "combined" with itself. So the Sith could roll damage once, and then add 1D to the total each turn, |
Unless the base damage was low as hell, you still run into the chance of them getting a 'zap-kill' from the get go though. |
Yes. I think we are deciding that we like your proposal (roll damage but apply 1 WL per round) better. |
Me, three. It is simple and seems to fix the problem. But we do need to make sure that Force Lighting is "kept up" to inflict the full damage. Otherwise we get "ZAP-kill" with a timer).
Or...
Maybe we should just cap the max damage allowed with each "attack". So it would take 4 or 5 attacks to get a kill result. That way we don't end up with a Jedi PC with lots of FPs and Cps getting killed over 5 rounds without being able to do anything about it. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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That kinda of nerfs it then, if you have to either keep it up to get its full result, or it only does 1 wl of damage, each application.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Me, three. It is simple and seems to fix the problem. But we do need to make sure that Force Lighting is "kept up" to inflict the full damage. Otherwise we get "ZAP-kill" with a timer). |
Yes. I assume it has to be kept up or specifically directed against the target. Think about what we see in the movies.
• ANH: Vader force chokes Motti. Tarkin tells him "Vader, release him." Motti survives. So interruption prevents the rest of the (possibly fatal) damage from occuring.
• RotJ: Palpatine force lightnings Luke. Luke is helpless, in agony, and presumably taking some minor damage. Vader picks up Palpatine, distracting him, and throws Palpatine into the shaft. Once distracted, Palpatine is no longer damaging Luke. Luke survives and is able to help his father to the shuttle bay.
An while I agree that we could assume the bad guys in the movies just choose to do less damage, I like the idea that the power just takes longer. That way my villains don't have to act in a tactically suboptimal fashion by choosing to do less damage to their opponents. They just need to choose to use a power that incapacitates their opponent while gradually killing him. That seems like a tactically reasonable option to me and I prefer the villains to act in a somewhat tactically sensible fashion. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | That kinda of nerfs it then, if you have to either keep it up to get its full result, or it only does 1 wl of damage, each application. |
That was my intention. As I stated way back, on screen Force Lightning is not a "ZAP Kill" power. If it were, Palpy would have fired himself when Windu redirected it.
Instead it looks like a fiarly slow, painful death. Nobody seems to get killed from a single zap. More like it hurts like hell, and they are writhing in agony while the Sith lord plays bug zapper.
Same with Injure/Kill. Vader's victims have time to choke to death, they don't suddenly drop like thier necks were snapped.
Now some might say that the bad guys are choosing to use those powers this way. But, according to on screen evidence they all do whenever they use those powers, so we have no evidence that those powers can be used in "zap-kill" mode and so they shouldn't be written up to work as "zap-kills". |
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