The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Alternate character ages and # of years between films?
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules -> Alternate character ages and # of years between films? Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:25 am    Post subject: Alternate character ages and # of years between films? Reply with quote

Humor me for a moment. If you can, please disregard your experience with the RPG and all the campaigns you ran or played in that filled the three years in between Episodes IV and V. Disregard the established EU. OK...

Has anyone else ever watched the classic trilogy, and felt that TESB isn't really portrayed as taking place 3 years after ANH? Has anyone else besides me feel like it might have originally been intended my Lucas to take place less time after the original fillm?

Let's start with the opening crawl. "Although the Death Star has been destroyed, Imperial troops have driven the Rebel forces from their hidden base and pursued them across the galaxy." That "hidden" base was discovered 3 years ago (by the Death Star right before it was destroyed), so not sure why they are still referring to it as "hidden". Sure, it was hidden until the Empire found it, but its discovery is old news by TESB, so it is an odd choice of words for something that supposedly happened three years ago.

"Evading the dreaded Imperial Starfleet, a group of freedom fighters led by Luke Skywalker has established a new secret base on the remote ice world of Hoth." New? It took 3 years to be driven across the galaxy? No, the crawl doesn't explicitely state there weren't other bases in between, but the crawl and film do clearly establish that the Rebels haven't been at the Hoth base very long. At the beginning of the film they were still having some trouble adpating the speeders to the cold.

And there are a few other things that just make it seem like it's less than three years later than ANH. The "love triangle" (Han and Leia's relationship) seems to just pick up where the first film left off. After Luke, Han and Leia served closely together for three full years, nothing would have happened?

The film does portray that the Emperor could sense that Luke was newly becoming a threat to the Sith when he was about to receive more substantial Jedi training by Yoda, and that could be an explanation as why Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't train one or both of the twins from toddlers like the former Jedi Order. If the Emperor can sense them in training then the Sith may have found them as children and kidnapped or killed them. Yoda and Obi-Wan may have felt that their chances of survival were greater if the twins didn't get any training until adulthood. A radical move by Yoda that still didn't sit to well with him all those years later ("Yes, too old to begin the training"), but still an explanation as to why the events of the first film finally necessitated the beginning of Luke's training.

So my question is, after Luke's training had already begun in ANH, why would the ghost of Obi-Wan wait 3 years to tell Luke to go to Dagobah? After ANH, the young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star would already have become the most wanted outlaw in the Empire, so the added danger of him being sensed by the Emperor as a threat to the Sith doesn't seem like it would be as much of a factor. Why wait so long to train him further?

I'm not at all cracking on the contents of the film themselves, which are all 100% canon for me. But since the films do not overtly indicate how much time passes in between Eps IV and V, I thought that the interpretation (or official edict) that they take place three years apart is what might be debatable, based on the films alone. Maybe when Lucas first made TESB he originally wanted to leave it vague (long before they had to be too concerned with EU publishing continuity). It almost seems to me like they arbitrarily just settled on three years because that was about how much the actors had aged between films? I do take things like the characters' apparent aging into consideration as well.

What do you guys think? The official three years? Why?

Or less? How much time then?
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, with the opening crawl, it doesn't necessarily mean that they were evading the starfleet directly from the retreat from Yavin. Vader was probably hunting them all over the Outer Rim, and they were most likely doing a lot of evading at that point.

Three years does seem like a long wait to get started, but you also have to factor in that there is a lot of EU material to fit into that time frame: the SW classic comics, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, etc. Your have a lot of valid points, and if the movies existed in a vacuum, I would agree that it was probably a lot less than 3 years, but with the EU material involved, three years might be just about right.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Blue Glowie
Ensign
Ensign


Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Three years always seemed pretty long to me too. Especially because of the unchanged love triangle, and the fact that Han still hasn't tried to deal with his death mark. That could be explained away, and was with all the EU adventures, but it comes off as one incident with a bounty hunter on Ord Mantell that changes Han's mind about staying with the Rebellion. Without any extra outside knowledge I would probably think it's around 6 months or so between films.

Although, Mark Hamill does look like he aged 10 years, let alone 3.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say at most from my pov, a year between the 2 has passed..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like less than a year to me, aside from how much older the actors look and any EU material set in the interim.

I am curious, are you going anywhere with this or is this just idle speculation?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys. As discussed in the Star Wars Universe thread, I have already added three years to my timeline (and made some character age changes that I didn't previously mention). I've added two more years between Eps II and III, as well as added one additional year in between Eps III and IV. We can discuss those other changes here too.

But where I'm going with this thread (so far) is that I'm considering changing my timeline further to reduce the amount of time in between Eps IV and V. I didn't know where else to put this thread on this board so I just put it in House Rules because changing the timeline will change it not only in my mind when watching the films but also for my RPG campaigns. I just wanted other Star Wars fan imput.

The films are the only absolute canon for me. I do not feel bound at all by published continuity (including deleted scenes and other media adaptations of the films) because I just disregard anything from the EU that I don't think fits. If something from the EU I want in my canon needs a few tweaks to fit into my Star Wars Universe, it gets them.

Regarding the EU I know about during the time of the classic trilogy... The Marvel comic series is almost entirely non-canon for me (in fact, as a whole it is not even canon in the EU - only parts of it brought in by later EU authors). Splinter of the Minds eye is definitely non-canon for me because it make the most sense to me that TEBS is the first confrontation between Vader and Luke (and that between Luke and Leia, it would be Luke that doesn't know how to swim). That piece-a-crap Zahn novel (Allegiance?) is definitely, definitely not canon for me! With only a couple tweaks, Shadows of the Empire is canon for me (but of course that takes place in between Eps V and VI anyway).

Regarding Luke's face, I disagree that he looks 10 years older, but I agree that he does look significantly different. But that is because of Mark Hamil's face getting plastic surgery after a motorcycle accident that happened in between filming the first two films. Despite the fact that his new face appears at the very beginning of TESB when Luke's on his taun-taun talking to Han, the in-universe explanation for Luke's new face is the Wampa attack. I'll take that.

I see that so far some have gone as low as 6 months. Story-wise, TESB seems to me to be only a couple months after ANH! But for my timeline, I want to salvage the day and months of the year from the in-universe dates that the Star Wars Adventure Journal gives for the events of these two films, so any changes I make will be even on the year. That means that right now I am leaning on changing the three years to one year as garhkal suggested.

Anyone else have any opinions or views regarding these things?
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Has anyone else ever watched the classic trilogy, and felt that TESB isn't really portrayed as taking place 3 years after ANH? Has anyone else besides me feel like it might have originally been intended my Lucas to take place less time after the original film?

You may be giving Lucas too much credit for planning anything Wink

Whill wrote:
Let's start with the opening crawl. "Although the Death Star has been destroyed, Imperial troops have driven the Rebel forces from their hidden base and pursued them across the galaxy." That "hidden" base was discovered 3 years ago (by the Death Star right before it was destroyed), so not sure why they are still referring to it as "hidden". Sure, it was hidden until the Empire found it, but its discovery is old news by TESB, so it is an odd choice of words for something that supposedly happened three years ago.

They're referring to it as the hidden base, because, last anyone saw, that's what it was. The amount of time that has passed in the setting is immaterial to what the viewer had last encountered. In order to bridge between the two, you use the imagery last encountered by the viewer and bring them up to speed. It could be a decade between, a century, you still have to approach the information based on what the audience can relate to. It's really not so odd as it is a standard literary and cinematic device. Take a look through just about any serial, you'll see similar expositions used.

Whill wrote:
"Evading the dreaded Imperial Starfleet, a group of freedom fighters led by Luke Skywalker has established a new secret base on the remote ice world of Hoth." New? It took 3 years to be driven across the galaxy? No, the crawl doesn't explicitely state there weren't other bases in between, but the crawl and film do clearly establish that the Rebels haven't been at the Hoth base very long. At the beginning of the film they were still having some trouble adpating the speeders to the cold.


This, to me, implies that they've been on the run for a long time. They didn't just go from one base to another, they were in a sort of diaspora. It takes time to find new, acceptable hiding places… and even more to get there without being detected while being actively pursued. Three years does seem like a long time, taking the movies as stand alone units without anything in-between (of course, there was supporting material published between, but we'll ignore it), but, the crawl is simply intended to catch the audience up to speed, give them a frame of reference from which to fall into the plot… it's not intended to be an expositive diatribe covering everything that's happened. At best, it's a brief summation before the real story begins. Now, yeah, I agree, it doesn't explicitly feel like 3 years, necessarily, but it doesn't necessarily feel like much less or more, either. At best, it's ambiguous. It falls into the realm of storytelling, inferring that "some time" has passed. I really doubt that the timeline was considered as heavily by the filmmakers as it was by we the micro-fact obsessive fans Smile

Side note - adapting existing hardware to new, harsh environmental conditions isn't easy. We still haven't developed a really good, reliable internal combustion engine to deal with our own Arctic/Antarctic conditions, and we've been at it for decades. That the strapped-for-cash Rebel Alliance is taking a while to adapt their airspeeders would not come as any kind of a surprise, even with lots of resources, it's not a speedy process.

Whill wrote:
The "love triangle" (Han and Leia's relationship) seems to just pick up where the first film left off. After Luke, Han and Leia served closely together for three full years, nothing would have happened?

Hey, you've never been in a weird relationship state that could develop in a different direction but stays relatively static for years at a time? If not based in reality, this is a staple of cinema and television; maintaining sexual tension maintains viewer interest. In almost all cases, once that dynamic is removed (generally through the couple finally hitting it off) the relationships become boring and viewer interest drops dramatically.

Whill wrote:
The film does portray that the Emperor could sense that Luke was newly becoming a threat to the Sith when he was about to receive more substantial Jedi training by Yoda, and that could be an explanation as why Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't train one or both of the twins from toddlers like the former Jedi Order. If the Emperor can sense them in training then the Sith may have found them as children and kidnapped or killed them. Yoda and Obi-Wan may have felt that their chances of survival were greater if the twins didn't get any training until adulthood. A radical move by Yoda that still didn't sit to well with him all those years later ("Yes, too old to begin the training"), but still an explanation as to why the events of the first film finally necessitated the beginning of Luke's training.

I don't thing the Emperor sensed Luke's growing power, exactly. Rather it seems like he had precognitive visions, similar to that Luke experienced prompting him to leave Dagobah. The Force warns him of possible future events in which Luke comes to play a major role… it really doesn't seem like he directly senses the growing power of Luke the Force user. "Sensed a great disturbance in the Force" implies shifting streams of possibility and balances, uncertainty and chaos in the flow of events… I don't think it really means that an individual can be sensed being a disruption. Think of it like tossing a big rock into a stream; everything downstream (to a certain distance) can sense that something has changed upstream, as the currents have changed, but they can't say WHAT has changed.

I always took the "too old to begin training" to be due to the threat of the lure of the Dark Side. He's old enough that he's developed his personality liabilities that would lead towards temptation; impatience, lack of focus, etc. If indoctrination starts early, these traits can be more easily replaced with traits more becoming of a Jedi. Looking at the EU, and even the end of ROTJ, we can see Luke's failings emerge in stints to the Dark Side of varying lengths. In ROTJ, he only gives in for a short period, but later, it lasts much longer. He does find his way back, being a hero and all, but his personality traits had left his susceptible to it more than if he had been indoctrinated early.

Whill wrote:
So my question is, after Luke's training had already begun in ANH, why would the ghost of Obi-Wan wait 3 years to tell Luke to go to Dagobah? After ANH, the young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star would already have become the most wanted outlaw in the Empire, so the added danger of him being sensed by the Emperor as a threat to the Sith doesn't seem like it would be as much of a factor. Why wait so long to train him further?

I'm not at all cracking on the contents of the film themselves, which are all 100% canon for me. But since the films do not overtly indicate how much time passes in between Eps IV and V, I thought that the interpretation (or official edict) that they take place three years apart is what might be debatable, based on the films alone. Maybe when Lucas first made TESB he originally wanted to leave it vague (long before they had to be too concerned with EU publishing continuity). It almost seems to me like they arbitrarily just settled on three years because that was about how much the actors had aged between films? I do take things like the characters' apparent aging into consideration as well.

What do you guys think? The official three years? Why?

Or less? How much time then?


Ya know, except for gaming needs and EU material needs, the exact amount of time between the films is (within a certain margin) almost completely irrelevant. It's ambiguous in the films, and that's just fine, they don't need a cast in stone timeline to tell the story. This is why it's not explicit, it's not important. Three years is almost arbitrary, but, it's also reasonable in-setting.
_________________
Hotaru no Hishou; a messageboard about games, friends and nothing at all.

Donate to Ankhanu Press
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Grimace
Captain
Captain


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also in the camp of "It's as long as it needs to be and not longer" for the time between Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. Speaking from personal experience, the situation between Han and Leia could easily be at a point 3 years after Star Wars just as much as it could be 1 year after Star Wars.

Want to know how long it is for me? Just as long as it needs to be. I've never said "It's X years or Y months after Star Wars" when I picked a time for an adventure or campaign. I say "It's between Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back". If someone asks how long after I would answer "long enough for this to happen...specifics don't matter".

Also, if you consider all of the possible in-universe ramifications, all sorts of things could have happened in the time frame. It could have taken a month or two to move the entire base off the Yavin moon. Then maybe they fall back to a backup moon on some mountainous planet. The Empire, incensed with finding the Rebels who blew up their precious station, finds the mountain base. The Rebels escape and scatter. It takes a couple months or more moving around. Missions are sent to various places to find new base locations. For a period of time, Han and Leia aren't even working together and are in different areas...same with Luke. After a couple more months they find a couple places for bases. The Empire sniffs one out and attacks it while the other stays hidden for a while. This base is on a warm, humid planet, similar to Yavin's moon because of the cover it provides. The rebels gather again over time, Han, Leia and Luke are back together, but then here comes the Empire again. They have to vacate that base as well. The rebels spent more time evading the Empire. Searching takes time. They find Hoth. Rather than plopping down on it right away they check it out and have a small outpost on it at first. Still, for a month or more, no base is established. Really, do you think they could find a native Tauntaun, capture some, break them so they could be saddled and ridden, trained their people to ride them all in a month or two?
After the rebels figure out the tauntauns and the outpost remains undiscovered by the Empire after a lengthier time, the rebel high command decides to set up their base on Hoth. The Rebels, who have been simply planet hopping and staying on ships the whole time, decides to move back to Hoth and set up an actual base.
So they start setting up. During the time of setup the 3 main characters aren't going to be galavanting around the galaxy as they'll be busy setting things up. So the "bounty hunter of Ord Mantell" was probably a month or two or more before the base on Hoth was even started. But setting up generators, defenses (all those defensive turrets don't just sprout out of the ice...and that MASSIVE ion cannon isn't something I see getting finished in only a month. People have time to use tauntauns a lot and become skilled riders and learning when the tauntauns will freeze (which I'm sure takes some doing considering it's a native animal). Riding animals is great for shorter distances, but for longer distances they need speeders. But their speeders were set for more hot temperatures or humid temperatures. So they can handle some cold, but not THAT cold. So they use speeders, but the frigid temps at night still cause problems. That's not something they can fix in a week or two.

All that, to me, strikes me as taking a fair bit of time. If you want to call that a year, you might be rushing things. If you want to call that 2 or 3 years, that could work. If you want to call it 4 years, that could probably even work.

Problems like Obi Wan taking that moment to show up to Luke after all that time...well....that's more like plot device. Maybe it took the chance of Luke actually almost dying for the ghost of Obi Wan to decide he needs to bump Luke back on the path towards the Force.

Really, though....don't worry about too many specifics like exact amounts of time passing. The amount of time passing is "just what it needs to be" to fit in what your idea of happened in the meantime...whether that's with all of EU, without all of EU, with all of your home grown universe or without it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ank and Grim, thanks for your lengthy replies! Thanks for both for your points about the length of time and the factors involved in setting up a base on Hoth. Perhaps two months was a little hasty. But then again, they could have already had a base in the works there before the events of ANH. And of course the Rebels would have multiple bases at various stages all over the galaxy, as indicated in RPG and other EU sources. So Yavin and Hoth were just two of many Rebel bases.

Ank, point well-taken on the crawl. It is out-of-universe and it was the next episode in the serial. It was meant to catch up the viewers since the last episode. But a minor point, the Rebel base at Yavin wasn't left hidden in the last episode. At the end of the episode, the Empire discovered the hidden base (the Empire is who they were hiding from). Its discovery means it is no longer hidden "last anyone saw". And after the Death Star was destroyed, it would only take as long as it took the Empire to send ships with troops to drive the Rebels out. Of course, since the Rebels knew the Empire knew about base, I doubt the Rebels would just wait around to be driven out anyway. I would think they would start their evacuation immediately after the medal-awarding ceromony. So, I'll try not to let the crawl influence my judgement of the passing of time, but I do still think that is odd wording even for out-of-universe viewers of the serial. (See, I'm not just a blind-faith Lucas fanboy afterall).

Regarding cinema using sexual tension of a static relationship state to maintain drama and viewer interest, that seems to be opposite of your first point. That would realy only make sense here if they used that tension in the Marvel comics (which was geered at only the younger end of the viewer spectrum so not likely). In the aforementioned novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Han Solo did not appear so it wasn't used there. So if the relationship was not protrayed much in any media between the two films, then there was nothing to "maintain" over the time in between or viewer interest. Remember, I'm not stating that the relationship should have advanced offscreen, not matter who much time had elapsed. I expect the relationship to pick up exactly where it left off in the last episode of the serial. The question was always how much time had passed in between. The longer the time, the less realistic it is for the relationship to have remained static.

Regarding the Emperor just finally sensing a serious threat in Luke Skywalker in this epsiode, the key word to my interpretation was "new". In all three versions of the film, Palps says, "We have a new enemy." Luke was an enemy the first episode, so that is obviously not literally true. The only thing that was "new" was Luke was about to be trained. I also view it as the Emperor seeing the future, because at the point he stated it, Luke had not yet recieved any new training from Yoda.

But Obi-Wan held off sending Luke to Dagobah for 3 years, and then as soon as Luke goes there Palpatine tells Vader they have a new enemy? And this conversation happens from the Sith Master to his Sith Lord. We have a new enemy. Since Luke has been an enemy of the Empire for destroying the Death Star three years ago, it is obvious to me that the "we" that Luke is now newly an enemy of is specifically the Sith leadership of the Empire, the two people having the conversation. Luke was not a new enemy of the Empire. The context of the rest of the conversation support this. "He could destroy us." "He will join us or die." They agree that the only way Luke would not be a threat to the Sith is for Luke to join the Sith or die.

But the big line is "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi". So either there is some sort of connection between Luke about to be trained as a Jedi and this conversation, or it is just an extreme coincidence that they would suddenly become concerned about this three years later. Star Wars is full of all sorts of meaningful coincidences. "Always in motion is the future", but the possible future of Luke become a Jedi (and thus a threat to the Sith) just became a lot stronger. And my interpretation also explains why they didn't train Luke or Leia from birth - the Emperor could sense them being trained and they had a better chance as adults then children. Not necessarily a better chance at not turning to the Dark Side, but a better chance of not being killed as children or raised by the Sith.

So I never had any problem with the Emperor defining Luke a "new" enemy, and that was never considered as a reason why the film must take place closer to a ANH. No matter how long it has been, the possibility of Luke becoming a Jedi was new as of this episode of the serial. And it was new because Obi-Wan hadn't sent Luke to Dagobah earlier, which takes me back to my original question: Why did Obi-Wan wait 3 years for Yoda to continue Luke's training?

And so I think I'm reading the suggestion that it was Luke's personality traits (such and anger and impatience) that they were waiting for Luke to mature out of? Well, he hadn't matured beyond that as Yoda pointed out, so then my question becomes: Why did Obi-Wan/Yoda choose that particular time? In the previous episode, the imminent threat of the Death Star (which lead to Luke's aunt and uncle being killed) made Luke getting at least some initial training urgent. But in the next episode, this was just yet another new Rebel base over the past three years of the Imps driving the Rebels across the galaxy. What about the Wampa incident made Obi-Wan think, "this is the time" but not during the last three years of adventures that Luke surely had offscreen? Was Vader getting too close to capturing Luke so the Jedi were again pressed by the events that were occuring to advance to the next stage in their plan for Luke?

And yes, Ank, ultimately this is not only for my enjoyment of watching the films, but also for my enjoyment of making new RPG stories that take place in the same continuity of the films I enjoy so much.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grimace, I appreciate your efforts in your simple advice of 'don't worry about how much time has elapsed.' But as indicated above, I'm not just a fact-obsessed film fan. How much time is important for my RPG adventure continuity. And what you suggested is basically what I'm trying to do anyway. I am trying to determine what amount of time works best for me. The difference is, I'm not going to base my view of film continuity around whatever is needed for my RPG campaign. If that works for you and others, then awesome, more power to you!

I'm basing my RPG campaigns around my view of film continuity. That part of the challenge is fun for me now, especially since the prequels have added a lot more continuity to maintain. Once I settle on my view of the films, then I have fun planning around them and filling in the blanks. In the past I have ran so many campaigns that intentionally break film continuity (my groups' own "Infinities"). Almost all of my early campains did. And I have also ran a couple campaigns that started out with the intention of adhering to film canon and then I carelessly screwed up and broke canon. One time I used a retcon and it just didn't sit well with me (it probably bothered me more than the rest of the group). Another time I just said, 'Oh well now we are in divergent reality.' Now with the film saga complete, I personally am no longer interested in infinities that violate film continuity. If any of my players disagree with my view of film continuity and they think we are diverging, then it can be an infinity reality for them. But for the sake of my fun now, I want all the adventure I run to fit in with the films my mind

Since the only Star Wars gaming I was always interested in is the classic trilogy era (even since the prequels), how many years take place between ANH and TESB is a very important consideration for me (and I suspect to a lot of Star Wars D6 gamers here as well). The vast majority of all the adventures I have ever ran and played in took place in between these two films. From a strictly GM point of view, I don't really want to lose any time to set campaigns in! But as I stated, I want my campaigns to confirm to the continuity of my view of the films, because that will ultimately provide me the most satisfaction in the end. I want the satisfaction of Whill's Universe being able to do what the EU has failed to do IMO - be conistent with itself and not contradict the films!

OK, the film heroes may have been split up over time. I now realize that my mind (since my childhood) had always assumed that the "heroes of Yavin" were always put together on assignments. I think that Alliance leadership would have recognized their greatness and wanted to keep some of that magic working. But realistically, yes they could have been split up at various times and had independent missions and assignments. Thanks Grim.

Yes, obviously Luke being told to go to Dagobah in this episode was a plot device to get him to Dagobah. Lucas has stated very clearly that he had always wanted there to be a film Jedi training montage but the plot and production of the first film just reduced it to Luke taking his first step into a larger world on the way to the Alderaan system. And since Obi-Wan was dead and Lucas didn't want the Jedi training to come from a ghost, enter Yoda. Since he wanted the training shown in a movie, that is definitely why it wasn't just offscreen in between movies, just a sentence in the opening crawl. But plot structure is an out-of-universe concept.

I am looking for in-universe explanations why Obi-Wan chose that time to have Luke trained as a Jedi. Yes, maybe Luke's near death with the Wampa may have triggered it, but I imagine Luke to have had many death-defying adventures offscreen, so I don't think that the Wampa attack was anything worse than a lot of other things that could have happened to Luke. And if this happened all the time as I imagine, then the more times it does makes it increasingly unrealistic the Jedi would have as time (between films) went on.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Grimace
Captain
Captain


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A death defying occurence may have occurred in the off-screen time, yes, but the situation with the wampa was likely very different than any of the others.

If you're flying an X-Wing and get a little cookedbut don't die, then you had a near death episode. But is the ghost of Ben going to materialize in Luke's mind while Luke is still flying and say "Go to the Dagobah system"?

But with the wampa, Luke was injured, almost eaten, then escaped into the freezing cold afternoon of Hoth with such a limited chance of success of finding shelter that it may have been one of those "Oh...better tell him now because I might not have a chance later". Appearing and telling of a Jedi Master to train Luke helped stir Luke alive long enough for Han to find him. Luke wasn't going to be distracted by the appearance of Ben and caused to crash or get blown up in an X-Wing. Instead it would give Luke something to live for as well as give just enough life to him to get Han to notice him.

If you're basing your RPG around film continuity, you have to go with the evidence presented. Luke is noticably older. Not 6 months or a year older, but a couple 3 years older. So you have to work that into your explanation. Trying to trim it down based on how Han and Leia act towards each other or the challenge of adapting speeders to the cold basically contradicts the obvious age change. So it becomes easier to explain the way Han and Leia act and easier to explain the speeders with a lot of off-screen material.

However, since you're doing this for your own game universe, do whatever you want and use whatever rationale you want that fits what you want. We're just offering suggestions on what might explain things as seen on the movie screen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just thought of an EU bit of continuity that may actually help me...

It is not established in the movies how Vader and the Emperor find out that the name of the Rebel who destroyed the Death Star is Luke Skywalker. And in the original version of the Vader-Emperor convo, Palps states the name of the new enemy as if they both already know his name and already know that he is the son of Anakin. But that never really jived with ROTJ when Obi-Wan explained, "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. And then on top of that Ep III shows that Padme's body was intentionally made to look pregnant at her funeral, to send the message to Palpatine (and Vader) that the child had died with her, and therefore it was not possible that Anakin's offspring survived. This means that even if Vader discovered the name of the young rebel who destroyed the Death Star in between episodes, Vader would have reason to doubt the possibility that Luke was his son.

I had been upset that they didn't put replace the original Emperor hologram with Ian McDiarmid in the Special Edition of TESB, but I was so happy that for the 2004 DVD they not only put him in there, but slightly changed one line and added some dialogue to address this disconnect. No, it still doesn't completely explain things but that's where the EU point comes in...

In the Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, it explains that not long before TESB, One of Vader's agent had reported the name of the young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star (who the Force was so strong with): Luke Skywalker. Vader was of course intrigued, but he didn't automatically think that Luke was his son. Since he had killed Padme, he didn't think the child survived either. (Also, the ROTS novelization states that Anakin thought their singular baby was a girl.) He did think of the possibility that Luke may be some distant relative of Shmi Skywalker's (and thus himself). He also thought that maybe Luke just assumed the name of "Skywalker" to intentionally evoke the image of the famous Clone Wars Jedi "Hero with no Fear" as a PR point for the Rebellion. Regardless, he did not report this finding to the Emperor because he wanted to find him before the Emperor found out about him. He wanted to discover the true identity of this Rebel using his last name, and whoever he was, he wanted to see if Luke might be a possible candidate for becoming a Sith apprentice who could help him take over Palpatine. Since Vader was already tasked with finding Rebel bases, he focused on the ones where Luke Skywalker might be.

And that brings us to the opening crawl of Ep V which states Vader was obsessed with finding young Skywalker. Then the convo between Palps and Vader in that film takes on a slightly different meaning in the 2004 DVD version. If Palpatine had independently discovered Luke's name, he doesn't reveal that. This time he identifies the new enemy merely as the young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star, and then goes on to state that he has no doubt that this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker. Vader asks him how that is possible, and Palps doesn't answer that question, only addressing Vader's disbelief by telling him to search his feelings and he will know it to be true. With Palps then stating, "He could destroy us" the dialogue continues as it had originally (with Palps only further referring to Luke as "the son of Skywalker"). Vader brings up Kenobi because he immediately assumes that Kenobi was involved in hiding his son from him and providing some training. Vader never reveals that he already knew the Rebel's name to be Luke Skywalker, but that is how Vader finds out that despite how impossible it seems, Luke really is his son. So that conversation with Palps is a revelation for Vader, and then a little later in the movie that same fact becomes a revelation for Luke.

But what does this have to do with why the Jedi waiting 3 years to train Luke?

I was thinking that somehow Yoda sensed Vader's sudden obsession with Luke, which put Luke in more danger than before. Yoda was able to sense across the galaxy (perhaps through Qui-Gon) that Anakin was in terrible pain when his mother died on Tatooine, so maybe Yoda or Obi-Wan was still connected to Anakin's emotions as Vader. Maybe they were originally waiting to see if Luke matured out of his Dark-Side-inclined personality traits, but then Obi-Wan convinced Yoda that now was the time. So maybe it was the events have pushed their hands thing again.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grimace wrote:
If you're basing your RPG around film continuity, you have to go with the evidence presented. Luke is noticably older. Not 6 months or a year older, but a couple 3 years older. So you have to work that into your explanation... So it becomes easier to explain the way Han and Leia act and easier to explain the speeders with a lot of off-screen material.

However, since you're doing this for your own game universe, do whatever you want and use whatever rationale you want that fits what you want. We're just offering suggestions on what might explain things as seen on the movie screen.

This a great discussion! As I stated, I do take apparent character age into consideration, which was actually half the spark of me adding years during and after the prequels in my timeline. Of course I'm going to do whatever works for me, because everyone should always do whatever works for them. But I wasn't sure so I aked for help. Grimace (and everyone), I really appreciate your imput, suggestions and explanations. Cool. Thanks!

OK, so if apparent actor age should be a prime factor in determining the number of years in between episodes, what about the time between Eps V and VI? The ROTJ novelization indicates it is only 6 months after the end of TESB, and according to modern canon, it is only about one year later. Do the actors look three years older in ROTJ? Han appeared to age while in carbonnite hybernation, but perhaps his changes can be explained by being in carbon freeze. But what about the other actors of human characters? Should the time between the two sequels be more than one year?
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Fallon Kell
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just my two cents: a year or two seems like a little bit short a time to go from, hitting a 2 meter target with proton torpedoes to moving objects with your mind, without a teacher.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier

Complete Starship Construction System
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:47 pm    Post subject: TESB to ROTJ = 2 years now! Reply with quote

Five years older than Carrie Fisher, Mark Hamil was 30 when he filmed ROTJ (and it started to show), so playing a character that was 22 and a half was starting to push it. Harrison Ford could get away with playing a younger character but was 6 years older than his character in ROTJ, and Billy Dee Williams was 10 years older than his character was supposed to be! 5 months to a year between the two sequels just doesn't cut it. Now I have decided to go with ROTJ being 2 full years after TESB.

By my adding a little more than 2 years to both before and now after ROTS, that maintains that symmetry of Anakin living the same number of years under the Vader identity that he had as Anakin Skywalker, which was so important to Lucas when he officalized the film saga timeline before TPM came out. In my universe, now it will be 25 years as both identities, and I kinda like that symmetry too as he did end up becoming a Sith to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. And Luke and Leia are now a little over 25 in ROTJ, and the other characters aren't quite as much younger than the actors who play them. Also, by adding a little over 4 years to the whole timeline, that brings it to a full 40 years from Ep I to Ep VI. 40 years just feels more epic and complete for the film saga.

The rescue of Han would seem to be an urgent priority, so if it didn't just take long enough for Lando to assume a guard's identity and infiltrate Jabba's palace, then there must be some reasons. At the end of TESB, Luke and Leia stayed behind while Lando and Chewie took off to begin the search for Solo. I can see Lando and Chewie devoting most of their time to find Han. Despite her desire to rescue Han, Leia would still have responsiblities as a leader in the Rebellion. And if Han's rescue wasn't immediate, I feel Luke would want to go back to Yoda to complete his training which could only help with the rescue efforts. But since he obviously didn't go back to Yoda until we see him do so in ROTJ, there must be some reason for that too. And it seems that Luke's skills have grown tremedously in between the sequels, during a time when there is not supposed to have been any training for Luke, so perhaps there is an explanation for that too.

EU canon has established that Boba Fett didn't take Han strait to Jabba. That certainly does account for some time. And the plot of Shadows of the Empire otherwise explains that the Rebel heroes Luke and Leia get side-tracked by Prince Xizor's plot to kill Luke. Perhaps only needing some slight retcons, Shadows of the Empire is canon in my universe and the explanations it provides work to account for some time, but not quite 2 full years. Shadows seems to fit best towards the end of my 2-year inter-sequel time, in the last half of it for sure.

What if Boba Fett really had a lot of problems getting Solo back to Jabba? There were a lot of ruthless compatitive bounty hunters out there that would also want to collect Jabba's high bounty for Han Solo alive. Maybe Boba Fett was attacked and Han was taken from him? Maybe bounty hunters kept attacking each other and Han changed posession many times. All the time Boba Fett is hunting down the other hunters to stay on the trail of Solo all over the galaxy, while Lando and the rest may eventually even adopt the strategy of attempting to just follow the trail of Boba Fett because they assume that he is their best chance for getting Han back alive! (And that still gives a lot of meaning to Lando's line at the end of TESB about "that bountey hunter".)

What if after TESB, Luke runs into a former Jedi who has been in hiding and on the run since Order 66? What if this Jedi joins the Rebellion and they go on many missions together, so Luke gets some training along the way? That could account for some of the holding-off to go back to Yoda, and also account for some Jedi training and experience Luke seems to have gained by ROTJ. Maybe a prequel film Jedi who isn't shown being killed in ROTS? I don't think this Jedi should be master because Luke should feel it is necessary to eventually return to Yoda complete his training (and I also don't want to marginalize the importance of Obi-Wan and Yoda). Maybe the Jedi could be only be a Knight who was thought to have been killed at the end of the Great Clone War. And maybe the Jedi had a lightsaber he let Luke use, or they went on a quest or otherwised discovered lightsabers. Of course Luke's new second lightsaber would have to eventually be lost so he could make his own that we see in ROTJ. And of course this temporary Jedi would also have to die to explain his absense in Shadows of the Empire and ROTJ, and also to make Yoda's statement true "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be." I thought that maybe Vader was closing in and the Jedi sacrificed himself to Vader so Luke could get away.

So now that I think about it, I feel having more time in between the sequel films actually helps the classic trilogy.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage


Last edited by Whill on Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:42 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0