| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
 Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:36 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Whill wrote: | | Since WEG was way off on the Executor in the first place, I wouldn't put too much stock in the DES. Or DE... I certainly wouldn't cry if you dropped these ships from consideration in your scale system. |
I did some digging on the Sovereign. Turns out that it really was never included in the Dark Empire comics, but was added by WEG so as to have a ship that was like the Eclipse for gaming purposes, since the Eclipse and Eclipse II were both destroyed in that series.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
True, it did seem like the Sovereigns were made for the RPG only.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LegendaryExGamer
Ensign
Joined: 21 Jun 2014
Posts: 34
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: New Scale System |
|
|
| CRMcNeill wrote: | I'd appreciate some commentary on a scale system that I've been considering. I've always thought the WEG Scale had some rather obvious holes and weaknesses.
Here is what I've come up with:
Character 0D
Speeder 4D
Starfighter/Walker 8D*
Starship 12D
Capital Ship 16D
Death Star 24D
*Starfighters receive +2D bonus to avoid damage, and Walkers receive +2D to resist damage
DETAILS ON CHANGES (from top to bottom):
SPEEDER: In the 2nd R&E Rules, the scale difference between Character and Speeder is a measly 2D, which means Heavy Repulsortanks (with a body of 4D+2 or 5D) are within the damage threat range for light and repeating blasters. Bumping the scale difference to 4D gives vehicles a little more durability.
STARFIGHTER / WALKER: Really, when you compare the sizes of Starfighter and Walker-Scale vehicles, there really isn't much of difference. If anything, Walkers are bigger. The differences are in design, as dictated by mission. Starfighters sacrifice armor in trade for speed and maneuverability, and vice versa for Walkers. In this system, Starfighters and Walkers inflict the same scale of damage, but Starfighters receive a +2D bonus to avoid incoming fire, while walkers receive a +2D bonus to resist damage (The +2D may be too much. I am open to suggestions). This has the added effect of increasing the Walker's threat level, making them more dangerous to Starfighters as opposed to merely serving as big, slow moving targets.
STARSHIP: The rules do not reflect the ability of Starfighters to threaten Capital Ships. With a Scale bonus of 6D ( applied to the Capital Ship's Hull Dice AND Shields), even massed torpedo barrages stand little chance of inflicting damage. As such, in this scale system, all Capital Ships rated as Heavy Cruiser or lighter are downgraded to Starship Scale. This is more in line with the real world origin of the term capital ship (which was always applied to heavy vessels like battleships and aircraft carriers). This shift makes most of the lighter vessels (corvettes, frigates, and the like) more vulnerable to massed starfighter attacks (as is presented in much of the fiction, as well as some of the sidebar stories found in various source materials), and also corrects certain inequities found in existing stats. The most glaring example is the Strike Cruiser, with a Hull rating only 1D less than that of an Imperial Star Destroyer (and Shields only one pip less) at a fraction of the size.
Opinions? |
What I ended up doing was taking a page out of D20's Starship rules. We found that Scale and Starship combat wasn't fun. You're looking at resolving damage to your group starship/capital ship like it's no better than your character taking fire in a firefight vs Stormtroopers. Hull or Strength ... too basic.
The scales are about the same, because it should be a bit easier to hit a speeder (not 4D easier), however, anything over Character scale gains a static resistance value that you must deplete prior to actually rolling any dice to determine damage.
My Scales are basically pretty granular:
Character
Speeder
Walker
Starfighter
Corvette
Frigate
Destroyer (The Standard "Capital" Scale)
Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought
Super Capital
Mega Capital
Battlestation
Deathstar
Starship combat has been very functional, and even resolves well enough in fleet actions. There are also multiple hit locations for the size of various vehicles, gm discretion.
We keep the Character stuff as fast resolution, though we played around with resistance points for about a year. It wasn't satisfactory but it works on everything above Character scaling.
I would be happy to share a copy of my "3rd Edition" with you if you're interested. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've been playing with just making everything a flat modifier, rather than dice-scales. Large vehicles get higher scales, and so on.
_________________
"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Like what? If an AT-AT shoots a PC, what is the + to dodge on the PC's part? What's the + to damage if the AT-AT hits?
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LegendaryExGamer
Ensign
Joined: 21 Jun 2014
Posts: 34
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As far as scale vs a Character, it's essentially the same. There's a 4D difference in scale thus the Player gains a 4D Dodge bonus and the Walker gains a 4D damage bonus. At least in the way we run it, Character Scale doesn't change.
If a walker is firing at Characters, think The battle of Hoth... they die  !
However your question might not have been leveled at me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:31 am Post subject: Re: New Scale System |
|
|
| LegendaryExGamer wrote: | | I would be happy to share a copy of my "3rd Edition" with you if you're interested. |
I'd like to see what you have.
As far as this scale system, the version you replied to was version 1.0, and I'm currently on version 7.3 or so. It's taken a lot of refinement to get to the point that I'm satisfied with it.
As far as your proposed scale steps, I'm wondering how some of your scale steps would be useful in a typical game. I mean, "Mega Capital Scale" might as well be called "F that! Run Away!" Scale.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MrNexx wrote: | | I've been playing with just making everything a flat modifier, rather than dice-scales. Large vehicles get higher scales, and so on. |
Hmm. If you're interested in my system, it would be a good fit, since it uses 2D steps (so just use the 2D=7 rule and convert each level in my system to +7, +14, +21 and so on.
For myself, I prefer the randomness of the dice, as it increases the chance of, say, an X-Wing launching a proton torpedo that hits just the right point on a Star Destroyer, or that same Star Destroyer somehow scoring a direct hit on the X-Wing with a turbolaser cannon.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LegendaryExGamer
Ensign
Joined: 21 Jun 2014
Posts: 34
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:57 am Post subject: Re: New Scale System |
|
|
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | LegendaryExGamer wrote: | | I would be happy to share a copy of my "3rd Edition" with you if you're interested. |
I'd like to see what you have.
As far as this scale system, the version you replied to was version 1.0, and I'm currently on version 7.3 or so. It's taken a lot of refinement to get to the point that I'm satisfied with it.
As far as your proposed scale steps, I'm wondering how some of your scale steps would be useful in a typical game. I mean, "Mega Capital Scale" might as well be called "F that! Run Away!" Scale. |
On first mentioning it I understand how the scaling stuff I wrote about could be seen as f'that, flee in terror kinda thing.
Essentially, not much changes after Destroyer Scale (Traditional Capital Scale). At Dreadnought and up warships start taking severe maneuverability penalties. Technically, weapons scaled up to these levels would also deliver more damage at reduced accuracy vs the lower tiers.
We only ever resolve damage with D codes after all the resistance points of a ship section are eaten up. Thus, each scale tier has a certain amount of "Hull points" & "Armor points" per hit location. Capital ships normally have 4 sections. Some ships can have more and things like a death star would have 8-16 hit locations.
So, Mega Capital is a ship like the Eclipse, whereas Super Capital is your run of the mill Super Star Destroyer.
I would love to see what you have!
As for the Starfighter vs the capital ships. Here's one example. My cousin is commanding something like the Corellian Corvette from Darkstryder, save that it's been modified to have a hangar on each side of ship. It's a bit tougher and has a couple more fighters.
So, he's running an op to pillage a mining colony. They launch a wave of older starfighters to intercept him. He, smugly, looks at me and says "they can't hurt me, they're starfighters". (mind you he's read the rule-set but perhaps... not comprehended them). His ship, in this instance is only 2D stronger than a Starfighter, thus starfighter weaponry is only reduced by 2D, and the Corvette is only at a 2D penalty to maneuver (which he wasn't doing). Countering fighters and evasion is important, always.
I ask him "do you launch fighters?" and "are you sure you don't launch fighters?" They cored his super Corvette with a salvo of concussion missiles, blew his shields, ate up almost the entire superstructure of his ship.
Lesson for my games, "You always launch fighters".
Fighters can have good effect against ships of almost any scale, when targeting locations you can cripple weapons, blow the heck out of bridge sections and possibly destroy smaller ships alone. A squadron or two of X-Wings, however, can take the bridge section off a Star Destroyer.
By the same token, Capital weaponry CAN hit starfighters. It's much harder to do, but not impossible. The shots will typically vaporize a starfighter, but with the resistance system it's possible for a fighter to weather a shot and with some advanced skills we built up, possibly more than one shot.
Lets swap notes! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: New Scale System |
|
|
| CRMcNeill wrote: |
As far as your proposed scale steps, I'm wondering how some of your scale steps would be useful in a typical game. I mean, "Mega Capital Scale" might as well be called "F that! Run Away!" Scale. |
Shouldn't that be the same though for most anything battleship and up?
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | I've been playing with just making everything a flat modifier, rather than dice-scales. Large vehicles get higher scales, and so on. |
Hmm. If you're interested in my system, it would be a good fit, since it uses 2D steps (so just use the 2D=7 rule and convert each level in my system to +7, +14, +21 and so on.
For myself, I prefer the randomness of the dice, as it increases the chance of, say, an X-Wing launching a proton torpedo that hits just the right point on a Star Destroyer, or that same Star Destroyer somehow scoring a direct hit on the X-Wing with a turbolaser cannon. |
I also prefer the randomness of the dice, but i can see some players being happier with static #s.. BUT i would rather go 4 per normal D vice 3.5.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I posted a link to my latest version in my earlier reply (look for the blue text), but the bare bones version is:Character - No Change
Speeder - Split into two levels: Swoop at +2D (for Speeder Bikes and the like) and Speeder at +4D for most light vehicles, including the AT-ST.
Walker - Moved from +4D to +8D, putting them 2D above Starfighter. I particularly like this, as it turns Walkers into very tough major players on the battlefield, with the potential to take out smaller capital ships by themselves.
Starfighter - Changed the name to "Starship" to encompass space transports as well as starfighters.
Capital Ship - Split into three levels:Frigate, at +10D (4D above Starship), for the smaller ships (corvettes, Frigates and light to heavy cruisers)
Destroyer, at +12D, for anything from the Victory Star Destroyer and up (basically the original Capital Ship Scale)
Dreadnought, at +16D for the really big ships, like the Executor.
Death Star - No change.
Regarding your example, a +2D split for Starfighter and Corvette makes the Corvette far too vulnerable, IMO.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LegendaryExGamer
Ensign
Joined: 21 Jun 2014
Posts: 34
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CRMcNeill wrote: | Well, I posted a link to my latest version in my earlier reply (look for the blue text), but the bare bones version is:Character - No Change
Speeder - Split into two levels: Swoop at +2D (for Speeder Bikes and the like) and Speeder at +4D for most light vehicles, including the AT-ST.
Walker - Moved from +4D to +8D, putting them 2D above Starfighter. I particularly like this, as it turns Walkers into very tough major players on the battlefield, with the potential to take out smaller capital ships by themselves.
Starfighter - Changed the name to "Starship" to encompass space transports as well as starfighters.
Capital Ship - Split into three levels:Frigate, at +10D (4D above Starship), for the smaller ships (corvettes, Frigates and light to heavy cruisers)
Destroyer, at +12D, for anything from the Victory Star Destroyer and up (basically the original Capital Ship Scale)
Dreadnought, at +16D for the really big ships, like the Executor.
Death Star - No change.
Regarding your example, a +2D split for Starfighter and Corvette makes the Corvette far too vulnerable, IMO. |
The Corvette is vulnerable. It's a fragile ship compared to other more robust warships. It's not meant to take on a squadron of starfighters alone (unless it has excellent point weaponry). However, the soak values I was talking about start to radically distance themselves above starfighter grade.
Send me a PM, I will send you the link then. I don't have a direct link to the file other than on my Google drive atm.
I pulled this right out of my manual to give you an idea of how it works.
I didn't all the pages. But The corvette has 4, equal, hit locations compared to the starfighter's 1.
Scale Chart:
Character = 1 Point per D
Armor = 1 Point per pip
(Character Scale Soak points only apply to objects, like a door
or a blaster)
Speeder = 2 Points per D
Armor = 4 Points per D, 1 per pip
Walker = 3 Points per D
Armor = 6 Points per D, 2 per pip
Starfighter = 4 Points per D, 1 point per pip
Armor = 8 Points per D, 3 points per pip
Corvette = 50 points per D, 17 per pip
Armor = 75 points per D, 25 per pip
Frigate = 75 points per D, 25 per pip
Armor = 100 points per D, 34 points per pip
Destroyer = 100 per D, 34 per pip
Armor = 125 points per D, 44 points per pip
Cruiser = 125 per D, 44 per pip
Armor = 150 points per D, 50 points per pip
Battleship = 150 points per D, 50 points per pip
Armor = 300 points per D, 100 points per pip
Dreadnought = 300 points per D, 100 points per pip
Armor = 600 points per D, 200 per pip
Super Capital = 600 Points per D, 200 points per pip
Armor = 1200 points per D, 400 points per pip
Mega Capital = 1200 points per D, 400 points per pip
Armor = 2400 points per D, 800 points per pip
Battle Station = 1800 points per D, 600 points per pip
Armor = 3600 points per D, 1200 per pip
Death Star = 2400 points per D, 800 Points per pip
Armor = 4800 points per D, 1600 per pip
Armor Assumptions:
Character = None (Character scale Armor is +1 plus the Code)
Speeder = +2
Walker = 1D
Starfighter = 1D
Corvette = 1D
Frigate = 1D+1
Destroyer = 1D+2
Cruiser = 2D
Battleship = 3D
Dreadnought = 3D
Super Capital = 4D
Mega Capital = 5D
Battle Station = 6D
Death Star = 8D
Shields are always considered armor
Size Assumptions:
Character = Anyone up to 5m tall
Speeder = any speeder class vehicle (anything under 5m are
character scale to hit)
Walker = Varies, walkers using legs are walker scale, fast
walkers on repulsors can be speeder to hit
Starfighter = Varies, all starfighters are starfighter scale for a
reason
Corvette = 60M to 199M
Frigate = 200M to 399M
Destroyer = 400M to 599M
Cruiser = 600M to 999M
Battleship = 1000M to 2000M
Dreadnought = 2001M to 4999M
Super Capital = 5000M to 10000M
Mega Capital = 10000M to 20000M
Battle Station = 20000M to 30000M radius
Death Star = 30KM radius+; per 10KM add 1D to Base Hull
code; per 30KM add 1D to base Armor code (Hull and armor
bumps stack only for purposes of soak, not resistance).
Optional Rule:
Like the Death Star soak bonuses you can do something similar with each class of vessel to show a greater, more granular difference between ships. To keep thisn simple, limit the Hull soak to no more than 2D and the Armor Gains for Soak purposes to no more than +1D
Targeting and Damage by Scale:
Scale Climbs in 2D increments for each size category, thus it's
+2D bonus to hit a Speeder if you are character scale, however,
your weapons are reduced in effectiveness by 2D as well. The
reverse of this is that a Speeder scale weapon has a -2D penalty
to hit a Character scale person or object but delivers an
additional +2D damage. Weaponry above Character Scale,
generally, have a blast radius. The more powerful the scale and
the Die code, the bigger the explosion. The +/-2D holds true
until you reach Destroyer Scale. Then it levels off.
Until the really big scales, starting at Dreadnought: Rather than
making these scales easier to hit, these classes of vessels are
much harder to pilot and evade fire less successfully.
Damage per scale:
Damage is always assumed to do the average: 3 points per D
(for fast resolution)
Resistance is always assumed to be average: 3 points per D
(for fast resolution)
-Resistance rolls are typically unnecessary until you deplete
the hull or shield points
Death Star Damage = DS Armor Points, per D |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LegendaryExGamer
Ensign
Joined: 21 Jun 2014
Posts: 34
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I cannot find your link, I will look for it later..
You have to understand how we resolve damage on a Capital Scale, which this barely touches. We have advanced rules for the effects of fire linked weaponry, Batteries of guns, Ultra Heavy Weapon emplacements, Burst Fire point defense guns, etc.
Missiles and Torpedos always do full damage, 6 points on the D. Diminished for blast radius, jamming, evasion and flack only (anti missile fire).
We overhauled the space combat, aside from some prep work involved in calculating resistances and damage outputs of weaponry, the combat resolves rather fast. We've built it so that Command and Tactics skills also play a part in determining damage output and reduction in large scale naval operations. We don't play small . |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
THIS LINK RIGHT HERE
[snip]tl;dr[/snip]
Yes, but not that vulnerable. At +2D, a Corellian Corvette only has a Hull of 6D at Starfighter Scale, which means it's in the threat range of a single starfighter firing fire-linked proton torpedoes, never mind an entire squadron of them.
On a general read through, your system looks far more complicated than anything I would want to include in my game. I'm sure it works for your group, but for a group coming at it cold, it would be like having to learn a whole new system.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: New Scale System |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: |
As far as your proposed scale steps, I'm wondering how some of your scale steps would be useful in a typical game. I mean, "Mega Capital Scale" might as well be called "F that! Run Away!" Scale. |
Shouldn't that be the same though for most anything battleship and up? |
Truth.
| garhkal wrote: | | I also prefer the randomness of the dice, but i can see some players being happier with static #s.. BUT i would rather go 4 per normal D vice 3.5. |
That works, too. There are circumstances where either would be appropriate.
In fact, for the Artillery rules, it might be convenient to use flat damage values for targets to resist damage, for simplicity's sake, if nothing else.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
