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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Welcome to the board, Rimmer. May I ask how long this campaign has ben going on? And how often do you play? I ask because it seems like the PCs in your group are extremely advanced to even get to a point where this becomes a concern. I'm with some of the other posters in this thread that it takes a very long time to get skills that high.
In 22 years of playing the game, I can't remember a single PC who raised a skill above 8D. When they got a signature skill or two up that high, then they would usually move on to other skills to make their characters more well-rounded on their own initiative. I didn't have any caps, but I did strongly urge the PCs in my games to spread the CPs around to not be too focused. In the extremely rare cases players didn't listen, they found themselves separated from their party, out of their element and suffered a couple times. That "gentle nudging" was enough to get them to not over-focus on one skill area and make their PCs a little more well-rounded.
In the RAW, there is a built-in detriment to players raising their skills that super high. The cost goes up for each pip per die level. Raising a skill from 6D to 7D costs a total of 18 CPs, but a skill going from 10D to 11D is going to cost a total of 30 CPs. In my game, even the 18 CPs would take several adventures to earn. If PCs are advancing too rapidly from one high skill level to the next in your game, then I suggest lowering the amount of CPs given out for adventures.
CPs are considered precious commodities in my game. When my players get them, they try to spend them on increasing skills as much as they can. It's a lot cheaper and quicker to round off lower skills then to keep pumping all of your skill points into one or two insanely high skills. They know that and try not to have to save up too much, because CPs just sitting on your character sheet don't help anything. My players usually only use CPs in adventures to increase rolls in emergencies to save themselves, because that is a one-use benefit and then they're gone. Raising skills is the only permanent benefit of CPs.
On the same token, I don't disallow but do stongly discourage PCs putting any CPs into specializations at all. In the RAW, the CP cost is half (rounded up), but you recieve a benefit of less than half of all uses for that skill. I like that they are there for fine-tuning a character concept just in case a player really wants to use them, but they are rarely used in my game. Raising my Starfighter Piloting from 7D to 7D+1 is going to cost 7 CPs, but raising my X-Wing specilization from 7D to 7D+1 is going to cost 4 CPs. Yeah it's half as cheap (rounded up), but I only improve in flying that one starfighter type, not a full one-half of all starfighter types out there.
I admit that the 1E Starship Piloting skill was too all-encompassing for the cost, but I feel that splitting it up into three skills in 2E was good enough. If someone puts 7 CPs into their 7D Starfighter Piloting, that should raise their ability to pilot all starfighters by one pip, and not just one type of fighter. This suites the cinematic reality of Star Wars just fine.
As an alternative for increasing the cost for normal and/or specilizations above a certain die code, you can just sttick with the RAW and divvy out less CPs, making them more valuable and precious. Then most players are less likely to want to super-focus on one skill because it takes so long and they are not improving in any thing else in the mean time. Also, without changing the costs of skill increases as higher levels, you can just put the cap on how high skills and specilizations can go.
But whatever works for you. To each his own.
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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Rimmer wrote: |
Why wouldn't the pilot not focus on piloting ?, he does actually have other skills, his blaster pistol speacialisation is 8D and his Military Bueracracy specialisation is 7D, |
My players wouldt think it was worth it to put 12D into one skill. They would be lacking in other skills, even if one or two of them would be rather high as well.
Most players end up needing at least quite good scores in: Con, Sneak, Search, Climb/Jump, Dodge.
Often I mess with their plan to allways have the best player sneaking first, the smothest talker trying to Con the customs officer, the party Ninja trying to sneak into the Imperial base.
Most of my players tend to do quite specialized characters at start, focusing on one thing (combat, piloting, knowledge, etc). They quickly find that they have to broaden their abilities though.. |
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm not really sure why everyone here is so against playing at a high level, I have never had a problem with it. |
I don't have a problem with it, you mentioned you were trying to fix it.
| Quote: | The problem this was to solve are
1. "Bucket of Dice" After years of playing my PC's are very high level, the main pilot is rolling 12D in his X-Wing, this house rule forces him somewhat, to spread the skill points around a little. |
I was simply making a suggestion to fix the problem, without changing the rules. When it gets too difficult for a game master to challenge his players, it's not a bad thing to roll over the game and start fresh.
I've played several high level games, it's no fun when the GM is frustrated because you can roll 30D to defend yourself with your lightsaber. It is however satisfying to roll that many dice and score up over 100. (I've played that character 2-3 times a week for almost 7 years now. Up until recently of course.) It eventually becomes like Amber Diceless roleplaying, where I just say what I'm going to do, and that's that, however in that game, I'm still waiting for my epic finale to retire him.
I don't have the problem with players raising their skills so massively in my games because character points are a precious commodity, not because I'm giving out less than 10-15 per adventure, even sometimes splitting that up between chapters, it's because I make things difficult enough at times where they need those to save their lives. There are many close calls for my players. So, usually only about half of their points are spent raising skills, the rest are held on to in case of emergency. |
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Rimmer
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Joined: 14 Mar 2010
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Well this is going back way far, but these characters have been going since 91-92 ish, in our hey day being played every day, twice on weekends and three on sundays while public holidays were marathon events.
Yes as a teen I had no life 
Nowadays not so much.
Before this house rule, I never did like the "Specialisations" at all and don't think I had a single player who took one, the complaint was that they were to limiting and narrow focused, when explaining these to my pilot PC the conversation went like this.
PC: so its half cost, only 3 points for my pilot X-Wing to go from 6D to +1 or 6 points for my starship pilot ?
GM: yes thats right
PC: so if I do this we will be flying TIE fighters next week won't we ! I know what you're trying to do and I'm not going to fall for it !!!! |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
In 22 years of playing the game, I can't remember a single PC who raised a skill above 8D. When they got a signature skill or two up that high, then they would usually move on to other skills to make their characters more well-rounded on their own initiative. |
With my PC in sparks, i have several skills over 8d, but only specialties are over 10d, such as (S) vibro dagger combat, (S) assault rifles (firearms), and so on.
In all my gaming, i have only encounted a few select people who have a BASE skill over 10d area...
| Quote: | | In my game, even the 18 CPs would take several adventures to earn. If PCs are advancing too rapidly from one high skill level to the next in your game, then I suggest lowering the amount of CPs given out for adventures. |
And that is not even taking into account the expediture of CP during those games. Lets take a SParks adventure as an example.
Most award between 4 and 7 base, with some of the lower ranked ones having extras for hitting additional plot points (or goals). We have also a player vote for who did best, 2nd best and 3rd best. Winners get 3/2/1 extra. So for a GREAT session, you might get 10, possibily 12 (the highest). So for that 18cp increase of a 6d skill to 7d would take 3 sessions to EARN the cp, with you ONLY improving that skill one pip each.
I have had not that many who went through an entire module that did NOT spend any cp in that module (usually during the final fight), so his available CP drop.
| Quote: | | It's a lot cheaper and quicker to round off lower skills then to keep pumping all of your skill points into one or two insanely high skills. They know that and try not to have to save up too much, because CPs just sitting on your character sheet don't help anything. |
And depending on the Attribute it may even be more worth it, to NOT advance the skill(s) individually, but the Attribute as a whole.
Take my character.
Starting out i had
PER 3D, Sneak 5d, Search 5d, Command 4d, Hide 4d. To improve each one 1 pip cost 18 cp. By the time i had hit 7/7/6/6 and had con 4d, bargain 4d. It was just MORE intelligent to bump up Perception as a whole, rather than just the skills on their own; since every time you improve the Attribute, ALL the skills under it also go the bump up.
| Quote: |
As an alternative for increasing the cost for normal and/or specilizations above a certain die code, you can just sttick with the RAW and divvy out less CPs, making them more valuable and precious. Then most players are less likely to want to super-focus on one skill because it takes so long and they are not improving in any thing else in the mean time. Also, without changing the costs of skill increases as higher levels, you can just put the cap on how high skills and specilizations can go. |
ALternatly, you can start enforcing the Training costs and times associated with them. Which unless you are one of those who allows the house rule of :use those skills each session acts as the training: you need to spend a month per pip of increase to gain it. You can spend more to lessen the time.
| Quote: |
What about dodge? After adventuring enough a player has to specialize in dodge energy weapons or whatever? What about Sneak? Brawling? Intimidation? Willpower? Hide? Climbing/Jumping? Stamina? Swimming? A lot of the tech skills shouldn't necessarily have to be specialized in either, when you're working with engines, an engine is an engine is an engine, there are minor differences between them, but the engine of a BMW isn't going to be that different from the engine of a Honda, it's still an internal combustion engine, just like the engine on a x-wing isn't going to be "that" different from a TIE fighter, only difference is I'm sure, some sort of proprietary parts differences.
But, there are many many skills in this game I do find it appropriate for piloting skills, blasters, melee weapons, some knowledge skills. But making a blanket rule that is applied to everything I think is a little too much. |
Well said Raven. There are many skills that SCREAM to have specialties in use all the time, while there are just as many which see more use as the base skill.. especially FIRST AID and Astrogation.
| Quote: | | I think most game masters should have some idea when characters should be retired, and if you're getting up to 12D-14D range, one might want to consider the huge climax and see about ending that story. Like garhkal said, Sounds like you need to start it over again and retire these guys and gals. (Paraphrasing of course.) |
Thanks for the back up.
| Quote: | | Some of the skills we could not find a suitable specialisation for (eg: Dodge) so we kinda just skipped them and played them RAW. |
Of all the pcs i have seen spec in dodge, most took it in energy weapons, since they always seemed to be in blaster fights. So if you DON't change up the opposition, that is an easy one.
| Quote: | | Before this house rule, I never did like the "Specialisations" at all and don't think I had a single player who took one, the complaint was that they were to limiting and narrow focused, when explaining these to my pilot PC the conversation went like this. |
That is strange. To me specializations are one of the BETTER parts of the game. And i have YET (iirc) to see a pc (whether as a fellow player or as their GM) who did NOT have at least one.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Rimmer wrote: | PC: so its half cost, only 3 points for my pilot X-Wing to go from 6D to +1 or 6 points for my starship pilot ?
GM: yes thats right
PC: so if I do this we will be flying TIE fighters next week won't we ! I know what you're trying to do and I'm not going to fall for it !!!! |
lol, sounds like a convo I may have had with a player in the past way back. 
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Personally as a player, I love specializations, I would take more if character creation didn't seem to limit you to spending 1D for 3. They're cheap, easy to raise, and you can spend more CP to succeed if your rolling is short. Not to mention it makes for having characters that feel a little more real. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | And depending on the Attribute it may even be more worth it, to NOT advance the skill(s) individually, but the Attribute as a whole.
Take my character.
Starting out i had
PER 3D, Sneak 5d, Search 5d, Command 4d, Hide 4d. To improve each one 1 pip cost 18 cp. By the time i had hit 7/7/6/6 and had con 4d, bargain 4d. It was just MORE intelligent to bump up Perception as a whole, rather than just the skills on their own; since every time you improve the Attribute, ALL the skills under it also go the bump up. |
You're quite right. With the RAW, it is more cost efficient to increase attributes instead of skills. I think when they designed the game, they must have thought that the random element of the RAW (possible lose some CPs with no attribute increase) would serve as a deterent to it being over used, and perhaps it does. But the whole rule is seriously broken in the first place. Even with the chance of spending CPs to no avail, there should never be an increase of all skills on an attribute that costs less than the cost of raising all the skills. Like with specialzation cost-to-benefit ratio, it should cost more, not less. And it increases all skills regardless of their level, which takes away the cost for increasing a pip per die code that normal skill and specilization has. Increasing your Dexterity from 2D+2 to 3D at a base cost will also increase your 6D+2 Blaster skill to 7D. Rediculous IMO. So I house-ruled that there is no increasing of attributes in my game.
| Whill wrote: | | As an alternative for increasing the cost for normal and/or specilizations above a certain die code, you can just sttick with the RAW and divvy out less CPs, making them more valuable and precious. Then most players are less likely to want to super-focus on one skill because it takes so long and they are not improving in any thing else in the mean time. Also, without changing the costs of skill increases as higher levels, you can just put the cap on how high skills and specilizations can go. |
| garhkal wrote: | | ALternatly, you can start enforcing the Training costs and times associated with them. Which unless you are one of those who allows the house rule of :use those skills each session acts as the training: you need to spend a month per pip of increase to gain it. You can spend more to lessen the time. |
The CP cost is the same whether the PC used the skill or not in the last adventure. But you may want to brush up on your R&E. It is not a house rule that if a PC uses a skill in the last adventure then there is no training time requirement for normal skills and specializations. It is RAW, p. 34. And you're off about the training times too. Under a teacher, the training time to increase a skill one pip is 1 day per CP spent. Without a teacher, the cost is two days per CP. True that you can spend extra CPs to reduce the training time.
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Last edited by Whill on Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the correction on the time Whill.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| So far no one has ever accumulated enough CPs to raise an attribute, so for me at least its a moot point so to speak. This is the case even though I dont allow players to use CPs for anything else except raising skills (and attributes). |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:12 am Post subject: |
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You don't allow them to spend it on skill rolls, or just str checks in game? man that is harsh.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | You don't allow them to spend it on skill rolls, or just str checks in game? man that is harsh. |
The only thing you can use a CP for is raising your skills and attributes, not manipulating skill/attribute tests in-game. That include STR tests to resist damage, but on the other hand we have no 'wild die' on damage or the resistance test to make them less random. |
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