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Skills for a Wisdom Attribute
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:21 pm    Post subject: Skills for a Wisdom Attribute Reply with quote

The traditional Wisdom attribute that forms the tripod of Intelligence , Charisma and Wisdom in other games is missing in D6, with the applicable skills parceled out to Knowledge and Perception. Supposing one were to add a Wisdom Attribute to the D6 system, what existing skills would you move under said attribute, and why? Discuss.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to wisdom i peroanlly would make s differnece in siklls and use ery musch aking to the d20 systems.

Knowleged is what tou have chosen to study, widson is life experience

to me the wisdom skill is out of palce and shoudl maybe repalce an attribute or become a 7th one
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pakman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is either simple or complex.

Simple - it is part of perception -as that is a sort of d6's presence/insight/charisma.

Use that.

Slightly more complex;

I use stats from later editions of d6, as it has a specific segeration of the elements of perception, and blends mech and tech back into other stats - which I feel is appropriate - as in my perception - (no pun intended) tech is really knowledge, and mech - if you read the skills, is a type of coordination.

Others may disagree- which is 100% cool - do what works in your game.

My stats, inspired by later versions of d6 are;
(short versions).

• Coordination: Hand-eye and fine motor abilities.
• Intellect: Strength of memory and ability to learn.
• Perception: Mental quickness and attention to detail.
• Physique: Physical power and ability to resist damage.
• Presence: Emotional strength, personality, looks.
• Reflexes: Balance, quickness & full-body motor skills.


This works really well it is covers a well rounded mix of abilities and skills.
Also, later editions of d6 have mappings for most skills, and other terms for attributes etc.

Here are the longer entries, from my house rules document on attributes.
(again, not including force).

Coordination: Measure of hand-eye coordination, manual dexterity and fine motor abilities. Similar in concept to having delicate mechanical skills for working on machinery, or the skill with the hands. This would be like throwing something in a sport accurately.

Intellect: Measure of strength of memory and ability to learn. Understanding the associations and relationships for complex tasks, logic, deducing facts and critical thinking. This would be learning, understanding and remembering the rules of a sport.

Perception: Powers of observation and attention to detail, along with mental quickness and quick problem solving. Paying attention and making quick decisions during a sport.

Physique: Measure of physical power and ability to resist damage. A combination of toughness, endurance and strength and the overall metric of health and physical prowess. This would be lifting and carrying something in a sport.

Presence: Measure of emotional strength, self-discipline, force of will, personality and physical attractiveness. Appearing confident while performing a sport, especially when not.
Reflexes: Measure of balance, limberness, quickness, and full-body motor abilities. Similar to agility, but with an emphasis on reaction time and full body motion capability. This would be like dodging something thrown at the player in a sport.

These have a lot of other benefits that integrated into my overall house rules - but again, some folks may have different opinions on what works for their game.

Whatever works is the best answer for any group.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Skills for a Wisdom Attribute Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The traditional Wisdom attribute that forms the tripod of Intelligence , Charisma and Wisdom in other games is missing in D6, with the applicable skills parceled out to Knowledge and Perception. Supposing one were to add a Wisdom Attribute to the D6 system, what existing skills would you move under said attribute, and why? Discuss.

No, it is not at all missing in D6, Star Wars or otherwise. The 'sum of wisdom' is just parsed out differently. Charisma is clearly a part of Perception (which D6 Adventure and pakman has split up into two attributes, the 'Charisma' one being Presence). Intelligence is all over the place, but mainly in Knowledge, Technical, and Mechanical. Wisdom is mainly in Perception and Knowledge.

If you think that D6 is somehow significantly deficient than I think you are overly influenced by other game systems that have it organized differently, and just can't make sense of D6 according to your own expectations going into it. I would think a problem like that would be more for people new the system. Now if you feel an existing attribute needs slightly expanded to more fully encompass something, I get that. If you just want skills and attribute abilities organized differently in SWD6 you are free to move things around to your liking, but I reject the suggestion that Star Wars D6 is at all inherently lacking anything. Different organization does not mean anything is missing.

I do not define Star Wars D6 by the standards of other game systems. Virtually everything needed is already inherent in the SWD6 game system. I slightly tweak as needed.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you’re reading something into my question that isn’t there. I’m simply posing a hypothetical to the effect of, if one were to add a Wisdom Attribute, how would the skills be divided up. That’s all. I have no strong feelings either way, nor do I have any real desire to design a house rule for a Wisdom Attribute.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 12:44 am    Post subject: Re: Skills for a Wisdom Attribute Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The traditional Wisdom attribute that forms the tripod of Intelligence , Charisma and Wisdom in other games is missing in D6, with the applicable skills parceled out to Knowledge and Perception. Supposing one were to add a Wisdom Attribute to the D6 system, what existing skills would you move under said attribute, and why? Discuss.


Which attribute would you remove to make room for it, or would you make Wisdom a 7th attribute?

As for skills, i see willpower (K), persuasion, maybe intimidation, and Con (knowing when you're being lied to) under it.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Skills for a Wisdom Attribute Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
The traditional Wisdom attribute that forms the tripod of Intelligence , Charisma and Wisdom in other games is missing in D6

No, it is not at all missing in D6, Star Wars or otherwise.
CRMcNeill wrote:
I think you’re reading something into my question that isn’t there. I’m simply posing a hypothetical to the effect of, if one were to add a Wisdom Attribute, how would the skills be divided up. That’s all. I have no strong feelings either way, nor do I have any real desire to design a house rule for a Wisdom Attribute.

No, I'm reading what is there, not reading into what is not there. You literally wrote the word "missing," then you acknowledged the skills are there but organized differently, and you asked for discussion of adding an attribute and moving skills.

If you didn't really intend the word "missing" to mean there is anything deficient with the attribute system we have, then I do not see the point of even asking the hypothetical question. There would be no reason to add a new attribute and move skills around in the first place unless a GM felt there was something insufficient with the system as it is.

Were you part of a discussion elsewhere that brought this question up? I'll bet someone who asked this question doesn't fully understand the system we have so thinks it is deficient or feels more strongly than you do that attributes should be arranged differently, possibly with arguments on why it would be better, probably due to bias from other systems and wanting to alter this one more to their comfort level based on their gamer history. The SWD6 game system may understandably seem alien coming to it from years of D&D.

Tinkering always has a goal to improve something according to the tinkering GM. Most threads proposing changes start with a reason for possibly doing so. Even a GM who is torn between two ways of doing something still has pros and cons for each way of doing it. Sometimes GMs just post a problem they perceive with something and have no idea on how to solve it so they are asking for ideas. This thread is calling for a discussion of a proposed solution, but what is the problem it is proposing to address? It is not logical to consider and discuss a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (or remains unidentified) in the first place. The only purpose for the hypothetical change presented here so far seems to be nothing more than 'other game systems do it this way.'
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pakman
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TLDR:

I merged Tech into Knowledge, and added Presence as a charisma/wisdom/strength of personality type thing.

With guidance from the weg refernece D6 Gamemaster Aid & Screen, I used some of their thoughts to help me move skills around.


LONGER VERSION
As mentioned by others - it is is bit of a mix.

I have played the "where does this skill go when mixing up attributes" - and it is both easier and more difficult than it seems.

However - this is something weg and the minds behind it - have already done a bit of work for us.

There is a reference called the D6 Gamemaster's Aid and Screen (I think our own whill may have created the pdf version out there...).

Besides having a bunch of campaign and game setting info - it has a lengthily section on core concepts around the various attributes of the many versions of our beloved space wizards game.

It even talks about how to move skills between the various nuanced versions of the attributes

This was a key reference (as it has a lot of their design elements to it) for me when I wanted to update some things in my new game.

I removed Tech (as an actual electronics technician and programmer - I consider this more a mental and logic based consideration than an defining attribute ) - most of these moved under either the my knowledge type attribute, or perception (which is paying attention and thinking quickly).

This gave room for my Presence Attribute - which is my "charisma + wisdom" type thing.

best of luck in whatever works for your game.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
I use stats from later editions of d6... These have a lot of other benefits that integrated into my overall house rules...
Quote:
However - this is something weg and the minds behind it - have already done a bit of work for us.

There is a reference called the D6 Gamemaster's Aid and Screen (I think our own Whill may have created the pdf version out there...).

Besides having a bunch of campaign and game setting info - it has a lengthily section on core concepts around the various attributes of the many versions of our beloved space wizards game.

It even talks about how to move skills between the various nuanced versions of the attributes

This was a key reference (as it has a lot of their design elements to it) for me when I wanted to update some things in my new game.

The D6 GM Screen is a cool resource and I'm glad you found it helpful, but it is worth mentioning that the emphasis of the section you refer to is taking an existing D6 attribute system and modifying it for the sake of creating a custom D6 setting/game. But still applicable to the topic here of changing Star Wars D6.

I have no doubt all of your changes were made for reasons, some of which you touch on.

Quote:
I removed Tech (as an actual electronics technician and programmer - I consider this more a mental and logic based consideration than an defining attribute)

Even without being a technician and programmer, I get this view. Since I wanted to keep Technical, I embraced the overlap between Technical and Knowledge, and partition it with "technically-focused" skills and "general" skills. This what lead me to my (surprisingly controversial) movement of First Aid to Knowledge – Yes, there is certainly some technical ability involved in using medpacs but in my mind first aid is more generally encompassing so it fits in Knowledge better, IMO. All the skills remaining in my Technical attribute have a less general (more technical) focus.

Attribute overlap is an inherent quality of virtually every D6 system in existence, which is why the debate of where to put skills is so prevent in D6 communities. Mechanical includes the spatial awareness needed to pilot vehicles without crashing into things, and this spatial awareness could be seen as an aspect of perception (physical awareness). There is some level of "dexterity" involved in climbing or repairing something. There is some aspects of "knowledge" involved in shooting blasters (or doing almost anything that benefits from experience/memory). At the end of the day, your attribute arrangement still had to involve making some skill assignment choices to settle on the best place for a skill.

Quote:
• Coordination: Hand-eye and fine motor abilities.
...
• Reflexes: Balance, quickness & full-body motor skills.

Despite me having multiple mental attributes, I'm not a fan of multiple dexterity attributes. Sure, there definitely is a difference between eye-hand coordination and gross-body coordination, but I'm content with skill allocation alone representing these differences in a character. But I agree that two Dexterity attributes does make more sense when you have no Mechanical attribute.

A side effect of eliminating Mechanical and Technical is the necessary broadening of these skills that go to other attributes (unless you have a long list of skills under certain attributes). D6 systems without those tend to have one generic piloting skill and one generic repair skill. While I agree that SW 2e suffered some unnecessary skill bloat, I feel having so few that to not warrant their own attributes is too far in other direction for me. Despite Star Wars' theme to not overly depend on technology, Star Wars is nonetheless a very technology-oriented setting and genre. Something has to generate the all the pew-pew, and it is tech. Something has to fly characters from planet to planet faster-than-lightspeed, and it is machinery. So to me, D6 for this tone requires me to maintain the Mechanical and Technical attributes. I address the skill bloat by a less extreme option combining some skills (on these attributes and others). But I still like the nuance of having some general tech type specialties being in the base skill system.

While I'm obviously ok with two technology-focused attributes, I never understood any D6 game that has two Strength attributes. There are just so few Strength-type of skills for one attribute as it is. I see you didn't go the route of two Strength attributes.

Quote:
This gave room for my Presence Attribute

In my experience, the number one complaint about Star Wars among general D6 fans is that the combination of physical and social awareness into a single attribute doesn't allow for the nuance of having characters be good at one and bad in other. I feel it is a valid concern. However, I didn't want to split the attribute (because I didn't want to combine any of the other attributes or have seven non-Force attributes), so I instead went the direction of having three possible character advantages available for purchase in char gen that widen the gulf between two aspects of Perception (more than skill allocation alone does). Concern addressed.

Quote:
Presence: Measure of emotional strength, self-discipline, force of will, personality...

As an aside, based on that I suspect you lumped the Willpower skill in with your social awareness skills, and your description is great argument for doing so. Not to mention the fact that the RAW Perception skill (of which Presence is a part) always (since 1e) included the willpower to resist the Force, and the fact that the 2e game designer admitted that the tiebreaker for him putting it in Perception was a "dump stat" motivated reason. Moving Willpower out of Knowledge is a surprisingly controversial fan GM move. But I digress.

Quote:
These have a lot of other benefits that integrated into my overall house rules - but again, some folks may have different opinions on what works for their game.

Indeed, and GMs doing whatever works best for their groups is RAW. But GMs generally make changes for specific reasons, and if that reason is nothing more than a non-D6 game does it differently, then I feel there is a strong possibility that the GM making that change doesn't have a very good grasp of the D6 system. And in this fandom, I've never encountered any motivation to ever just see where a thought-experiment takes them (without any care for the outcome) to determine if they end up making any changes or not.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing more about your specific house rules tied into your attribute changes.
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