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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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Location: Norway
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 Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I've often thought about doing a rework of the various character templates so that they're non-species-specific, and then doing something along the lines of D&D where various races take the form of modifier packages applied to the basic character "type", as it were. For example, rather than having a Wookiee First Mate, just make it a First Mate template, with generic starting stats, to which you can then apply whatever Species modifier you feel like playing. This is a nice step in that direction. |
How about making all templates into something like this
DEX: +1D+2
KNO: +2
MEC: +2D
PER: +1D
STR: +1
TEC: +1
Here we have +6D to attrbutes, what this template would I don't know but it seems to be in the pilot realm with the +2D to MEC.
This is added to the specias average.
this means if a wookie have a minimim 3D/5D in strength, then we add the above tot he wookie, he then have only 3D+1 strength BUT he has maybe a lot higher that his species would normally allow for his dex and his mechanical , again making that cut avove the rest and giving him a unique favour.
I could see a TIE pilot be something like this.
DEX: +1D
KNO: +2
MEC: +2D
PER: +1D
STR: +1D
TEC: +1
THis would give for a human.
DEX 3D
KNO 2D+2
MEC 4D
PER 3D
STR 3D
TEC 2D+1 |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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That’s pretty much my idea, using the average of the Species Min/Max to generate the modifiers. Just as an example from the Sourcebook...
Using Human Min/Max of 2D/4D as a baseline, we get an Average of 9 on all Attributes (2D=6, 4D=12, 6+12=18, 18/2=9).
So, a Wookiee, for example, would have Min/Max’s of:Dex 1D/3D+2
Know 1D/2D+1
Mech 1D/3D+2
Per 1D/2D+1
Str 2D+2/6D
Tech 1D/3D+1 Then convert those values to pips and average them...Dex 3/11 = 7
Know 3/7 = 5
Mech 3/11 = 7
Per 3/7 = 5
Str 8/18 = 13
Tech 3/10 = 7 (6.5 rounded up) Then you compare the difference to the human average (9) and convert back to dice.Dex -2
Know -1D+1
Mech -2
Per -1D+1
Str +1D+1
Tech -2 From there, it’s just a number crunching problem of going through all the Alien Races and converting their Min/Max to a Modifier using the same formula.
Of course, it also presupposes that WEG got all the species Min/Maxes right...
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Mamatried
Commodore
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Reworking Templates for all species
I am going to take one template and break these down, attributes only.
then apply them to one alien and one human.
Templates used
Wookie first mate (Converted to first mate any race)
I choose the species Human and Wookie
Both Human and Wookie will here be given both template showing the system I came up with.
Wookie Human
DEX: 1D DEX 2D
KNO: 2D KNO 2D
MEC: 2D MEC 2D
PER: 2D PER 2D
STR: 3D STR 2D
TEC: 2D TEC 2D
Wookie First Mate
DEX +1D+2
PER +0
KNO +0
MEC +1D
STR +2D
TEC +1D+1
original
DEX 2D+2
KNO 2D
MEC 3D
PER 2D
STR 5D
TEC 3D+1
Human First Mate
DEX +1D+2
PER +0
KNO +0
MEC +1D
STR +2D
TEC +1D+1
becomes
DEX 3D+2
PER 2D
MEC 3D
KNO 2D
STR 4D
TEC 3D+1
I am basing this on all player characters being at 12 base regardles of species.
so any species with a 1D attribute will then get a corresponding 3D attribute.
and this will allow a wookie with 1D dex and 3D strength as their minimum, allowing a wookie character 3D dex and 5D strenght, where a huma will get 4D and 4D in the same attributes |
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dph
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| Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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One thing I've always found interesting is that despite being so vanilla, humans have always been a popular race in my Star Wars games (both ran and played in by me).
In fact one of the things I've always loved about the RPG is that despite the complete lack of balance, players don't always pick one race over another for a certain role or even the more obviously powerful races. We usually have around half human players.
It's interesting to note that any survey of players in tabletop and videogame fantasy RPGs, Human are always the most popular race!
I've been updating D6 myself and have considered changing humans slightly too as others have suggested, something akin to many other RPGs where humans are more 'adaptable'. Again, like others have suggested here, I always thought and extra 2D at creation or even a couple of extra specialties might be more flavoursome.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: Redesigning Humans |
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| Whill wrote: | | It really is a simple solution. |
It's a simple solution if the problem one sees is that species are not equal in attribute dice. Personally I don't mind species being unequal.
If the problem is needing a rationale for why humans predominate in the Empire, I'm fine with the notion that factors unrelated to attribute totals could be responsible for human dominance, e.g. greater adaptability, cultural flexibility, willingness to leave a homeworld en mass to colonize other planets, and highly competitive and warlike behavior combined with the ability to organize into very large structures like the Grand Army of the Republic or the Imperial Military. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| dph wrote: |
It's interesting to note that any survey of players in tabletop and videogame fantasy RPGs, Human are always the most popular race!
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I forget which year it was (2014/15), but one of our council members did a scan through all the 'characters in our database, and it was like 78% human, 15% non-human, 7% near-human.
When i've ran home games, i average 1 to 2 non-humans every dozen characters..
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10300
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | That’s pretty much my idea, using the average of the Species Min/Max to generate the modifiers. Just as an example from the Sourcebook...
Using Human Min/Max of 2D/4D as a baseline, we get an Average of 9 on all Attributes (2D=6, 4D=12, 6+12=18, 18/2=9).
So, a Wookiee, for example, would have Min/Max’s of:Dex 1D/3D+2
Know 1D/2D+1
Mech 1D/3D+2
Per 1D/2D+1
Str 2D+2/6D
Tech 1D/3D+1 Then convert those values to pips and average them...Dex 3/11 = 7
Know 3/7 = 5
Mech 3/11 = 7
Per 3/7 = 5
Str 8/18 = 13
Tech 3/10 = 7 (6.5 rounded up) Then you compare the difference to the human average (9) and convert back to dice.Dex -2
Know -1D+1
Mech -2
Per -1D+1
Str +1D+1
Tech -2 From there, it’s just a number crunching problem of going through all the Alien Races and converting their Min/Max to a Modifier using the same formula. |
I see. Applying attribute modifiers is very d20-ish. I still see a couple issues. This suddenly gives mechanical importance to the numerical average of the species attribute range that does not exist in the current D6 system. There are currently no stats guidelines for the relationship of the "typical" species stats to the min and max of the range, other than the typical stats must fall somewhere within the range. For example, an alien species may have a higher typical attribute value than a human, but a lower max attribute than the human max. The modifiers could generate a PCs of varying attribute values (Your Wookiee modifiers above will generate a PC of less than 18D). And the modifiers could still generate attributes outside of the species ranges. Sure you could eliminate species attribute mins/maxes and replace them with balanced modifiers if you wanted to, but that would make it more like d20 and I do not see that as addressing any problem that exists with D6.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Of course, it also presupposes that WEG got all the species Min/Maxes right... |
Right. In my option, WEG didn't. You know my view that no stats are inviolable canon.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| dph wrote: | | One thing I've always found interesting is that despite being so vanilla, humans have always been a popular race in my Star Wars games (both ran and played in by me). |
| garhkal wrote: | I forget which year it was (2014/15), but one of our council members did a scan through all the 'characters in our database, and it was like 78% human, 15% non-human, 7% near-human.
When i've ran home games, i average 1 to 2 non-humans every dozen characters.. |
I'm jealous of you two. Star Wars just has so many varied alien species and I have been cursed with getting an overwhelming number of players who do not want to play humans. I have ran adventures with all alien PCs, which limits some adventure possibilities. In my 1e days it wasn't much of a problems, but since the 90s players largely just don't want to play humans.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Redesigning Humans |
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| Whill wrote: | In 1987, the game system in the RPG core was designed around typical humans being the galactic standard with 12D total in attributes with an average attribute value of 2D. However the films portray humans as the dominant species of the galaxy, and EU fluff's description of humans in general more explicitly contradicts the game system's original character premise. There is a really simple solution...
Species abilities are based on humanity being the norm so their abilities are not special. Humans have the cultural story factor of being the dominant species of the galaxy. |
| Bren wrote: | | If the problem is needing a rationale for why humans predominate in the Empire, I'm fine with the notion that factors unrelated to attribute totals could be responsible for human dominance, e.g. greater adaptability, cultural flexibility, willingness to leave a homeworld en mass to colonize other planets, and highly competitive and warlike behavior combined with the ability to organize into very large structures like the Grand Army of the Republic or the Imperial Military. |
This story factor exists in my SWU too, but your response disregards an important premise of my position. It isn't just the story factors. In the decades of publication fluff (fiction and resource books), humans are continually described over and over as being superior to most species in manipulating technology, piloting, dexterity, intelligence, etc. These statements directly correspond to attributes values in the game. So if your position for statting humans your game is to completely disregard all of that, then it is your prerogative to do so. If the fluff is to be honored, then that would mean that humans must be above what the game defines as average. I choose to honor those many, many statements. Average galactic attribute value is 2D. Human average in my game is 2D+1, and thus there is a corresponding typical attribute total of 14D instead of 12D. And all the story factors still apply as well.
| Bren wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | It really is a simple solution. |
It's a simple solution if the problem one sees is that species are not equal in attribute dice. Personally I don't mind species being unequal. |
This seems to be an oversimplification that skews my position for others reading this. In my game, species are not equal. Only PCs are equal in my game. Now if what you meant is that you don't mind PCs of different species being unequal, then we'll just agree to disagree. Good day.
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Redesigning Humans |
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| Whill wrote: | | This story factor exists in my SWU too, but your response disregards an important premise of my position. It isn't just the story factors. In the decades of publication fluff (fiction and resource books), humans are continually described over and over as being superior to most species in manipulating technology, piloting, dexterity, intelligence, etc. |
I honestly don't recall ever seeing that or perhaps I just ignored it. Regardless of fluff, humans being superior pilots contradicts the Phantom Menace where a human pod racer was seen as an anomaly not the norm. IIR none of the other pod racers were human.
| Whill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | It really is a simple solution. |
It's a simple solution if the problem one sees is that species are not equal in attribute dice. Personally I don't mind species being unequal. |
This seems to be an oversimplification that skews my position for others reading this. |
I thought the context was clear that you were discussing PCs. Sorry that you took it otherwise. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:06 am Post subject: Re: Redesigning Humans |
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| Bren wrote: | | I honestly don't recall ever seeing that or perhaps I just ignored it. Regardless of fluff, humans being superior pilots contradicts the Phantom Menace where a human pod racer was seen as an anomaly not the norm. IIR none of the other pod racers were human. |
That is not a contradiction. You are conflating species typical stats with species maximums, and misunderstanding what was being said about humans. Fluff never said that maximum human abilities are are superior to all species, or even to all other pod racing species. From my very first post in this thread, the main point has always been that EU fluff by and large indicates that typical humans abilities are superior to the galactic average. This is a shift from the WEG game system was designed on the premise that humans are the average. According to the EU, Humans tend to be slightly better pilots than average galactic citizens, but there are still some species who tend to be better pilots than humans (and there are some species whose best pilots are better than the best human pilots, some of which may be the pod racer species).
RAW: Galactic Standard = Humans
Typical Attribute Value: 2D
Maximum Attribute Value: 4D
Typical Attribute Dice Total: 12D
Whill: Galactic Standard (unchanged from RAW)
Typical Attribute Value: 2D
Maximum Attribute Value: 4D
Typical Attribute Dice Total: 12D
Whill: Humans (changed from RAW)
Typical Attribute Value: 2D+1
Maximum Attribute Value: 4D+1
Typical Attribute Dice Total: 14D
This thread was discussing making humans better in the game. When I propose my changes, a common knee-jerk reaction I've encountered in the past is, "But if the human typical attribute total is increased from 12D to 14D, then the '+6D' formula will make Human PCs have 20D in attributes and that is too OP!" That reaction is based on a dogmatic adherence to some little non-obligatory rule. Remove the '+6D' rule and the basis for the objection is gone. Replacing it with 'All PCs of any species have 18D in attributes' removes the game balance concern of making humans a 14D species. A common knee-jerk reaction to making all PCs of any species have 18D is "Species shouldn't be equal". In my system, they aren't. Typical attribute dice totals of species still vary greatly in ability. It is only the PCs who are equal, and they are less than 1% of 1% of 1% of all sentients in the galaxy.
If you don't care to have PCs be balanced with respect to each other, then you don't have those game balance concerns of increasing typical human stats, even if you use the '+6D rule'. If you don't feel that human stats should be altered from RAW, then you understandably won't have a lot to add to a discussion about "Redesigning Humans". I respect your view that humans should remain unchanged in your game. If your response to "Redesigning Humans" is simply "Don't" then ok, thanks for chiming in.
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:03 am Post subject: |
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I Have to agree whill.
Having a bbetter average/minimum while keeping a maximum is actually making a species that is quite superior.
And yes, maybe it is not the worst thing to look at attribute dice and the like and even if it makes most sense raise the 12D to 13 even 14 for some species
I do however not think Humans warrant the +1 to DEX, PER and STR
making the human I see as most fitting with the fluff and being adaptable.
DEX 2D/4D
KNO 2D+1/4D+1
MEC 2D+1/4D+1
PER 2D/4D
STR 2S/4D
TEC 2D+1/4D+1
total 13D to attributes, increased from 12D |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| dph wrote: | One thing I've always found interesting is that despite being so vanilla, humans have always been a popular race in my Star Wars games (both ran and played in by me).
In fact one of the things I've always loved about the RPG is that despite the complete lack of balance, players don't always pick one race over another for a certain role or even the more obviously powerful races. We usually have around half human players.
It's interesting to note that any survey of players in tabletop and videogame fantasy RPGs, Human are always the most popular race!
I've been updating D6 myself and have considered changing humans slightly too as others have suggested, something akin to many other RPGs where humans are more 'adaptable'. Again, like others have suggested here, I always thought and extra 2D at creation or even a couple of extra specialties might be more flavoursome. |
In my group (typically 4 players) I was ALWAYS the only player to play a human.
Kinda interesting to see that humans are so popular. Most of my group were borderline power gamers, though.... |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I see. Applying attribute modifiers is very d20-ish. |
True. It's definitely not a perfect system by any means, but it would certainly require less mental effort than going through all the Alien Species and generating accurate modifiers based on their write-ups.
| Quote: | | (Your Wookiee modifiers above will generate a PC of less than 18D). |
The offset there would be the Special Abilities and Story Factors, which would (presumably) make up the difference.
| Quote: | | Right. In my option, WEG didn't. You know my view that no stats are inviolable canon. |
Indeed. Which is why I'm not all that motivated to pursue this project; I just wanted to detail a method by which it could be done.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | dph wrote: | | One thing I've always found interesting is that despite being so vanilla, humans have always been a popular race in my Star Wars games (both ran and played in by me). |
| garhkal wrote: | I forget which year it was (2014/15), but one of our council members did a scan through all the 'characters in our database, and it was like 78% human, 15% non-human, 7% near-human.
When i've ran home games, i average 1 to 2 non-humans every dozen characters.. |
I'm jealous of you two. Star Wars just has so many varied alien species and I have been cursed with getting an overwhelming number of players who do not want to play humans. I have ran adventures with all alien PCs, which limits some adventure possibilities. In my 1e days it wasn't much of a problems, but since the 90s players largely just don't want to play humans. |
Well, maybe its cause you have so many alien options, people don't think they've got to be human?
| Naaman wrote: |
In my group (typically 4 players) I was ALWAYS the only player to play a human.
Kinda interesting to see that humans are so popular. Most of my group were borderline power gamers, though.... |
Was your dm's, pushing the "imperials are harsh on non-humans'>?
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