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New Martial Arts style: Streetfighting
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: New Martial Arts style: Streetfighting Reply with quote

Had a player who wanted to have sort of a roughneck barfighting style, so I cooked up a new martial art style using the expanded martial arts rules:

Quote:
(A)Martial Arts – Street Fighter
Prerequisite: Brawling 4D, Stamina 4D
Base Ability: Can Take a Hit – Street Fighters are used to getting smacked around, as such they get +1 for every 1D they have in (A)Street fighting to their soak rolls against brawling attacks and melee attacks made with bludgeoning weapons.

Techniques:
Blind Fighting – The Fighter is trained to fight without the use of their sight.
Moderate (Light Smoke) – Very Difficult (Total Darkness): Negates penalties for fighting blind or in the dark.

Disarm – Trained in disarming their opponents, giving them the advantage in melee combat.
Moderate/Opposed: Success indicates the target has been disarmed of one weapon or item they are holding. Item lands 1D meters away.

Elbow Smash – Devastating attack using their elbow.
Easy: Str +2D damage.

Foot Sweep – The Fighter is adept at kicking the legs of their opponent out from under them.
Moderate: Str +2D damage. Stunned result or better, the target is knocked down.

Head Butt – The Fighter has trained to use their head as a weapon, useful especially when bound or held.
Easy: Str +1D+1, can be used without penalty in a grapple.

Hold/Grapple – The fighter knows how to grapple and manipulate held opponents.
Difficult: Success grants a +1D bonus to opposed brawling checks while grappling.

Instant Knockdown – The Fighter knows how to knock their opponents off balance.
Moderate: Stun result or better on an attack, the opponent is knocked down.

Kick – A devastating kick attack.
Easy: Str +2D damage.

Punch – A devastating punch attack.
Very Easy: Str +1D Damage.

Reversal – The Fighter knows how to break and reverse grapples.
Difficult: The fighter gets a +2D bonus to attempt to break a grapple.

Throat Jab – The Fighter is trained to target the breathing tubes in the throats of his opponents.
Difficult: -1D penalty to hit, does Str +2D. Stunned result or better means his opponent may take no other actions that round.

Weapon Block – The Fighter knows how to defend against melee weapons with their bare hands.
No penalty when using Hand to Hand skills against someone armed with a melee weapon.

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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That weapon block one seems a little "advanced" for a bar fighter. What do you think?

I might allow it if the opponent is wielding an improvised weapon (bar stool, broken bottle, etc.), but not a purpose-built weapon.

What's your overall take on the RoE martial arts rules? To me, they seem like WEG was kind of back pedaling trying to come up with something that fits into their rules (which are difficult to manipulate when you want a specific outcome, such as more damage for "special" attacks).

I started working on a system that has various brawling skills (such as Brawling [Teras Kasi]) which are NOT specializations but regular skills in their own right that require a teacher to be able to learn (or else the character can always raise the basic brawling skill on his own). The different styles, like yours, have pros and cons (mostly situation-dependent pros), but in general are "better" than the basic brawling skill.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree. Seeing some large bar fights, some of the better folk WERE able to fight effectively still, vs someone using say a bat, or a pool que.. So i can see it.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That weapon block one seems a little "advanced" for a bar fighter. What do you think?

I might allow it if the opponent is wielding an improvised weapon (bar stool, broken bottle, etc.), but not a purpose-built weapon.


The idea was knives, broken bottles, pool cues, bar stools, mugs. Your typical street fighting expert has likely encountered melee weapons.

Quote:
What's your overall take on the RoE martial arts rules? To me, they seem like WEG was kind of back pedaling trying to come up with something that fits into their rules (which are difficult to manipulate when you want a specific outcome, such as more damage for "special" attacks).

I started working on a system that has various brawling skills (such as Brawling [Teras Kasi]) which are NOT specializations but regular skills in their own right that require a teacher to be able to learn (or else the character can always raise the basic brawling skill on his own). The different styles, like yours, have pros and cons (mostly situation-dependent pros), but in general are "better" than the basic brawling skill.


I... have mixed feelings about the way Martial Arts can be abused using the optional rule as written in RoE. The more I've been thinking about it, the more I've found that I feel brawling damage should be stun damage by default, it takes someone who has really trained their skill up to be able to kill someone with a punch, or it takes a ton of work.

After reading a post by Whill, I decided to start doing Full Strength damage as Stun damage, and if someone is actively trying to kill, they do half strength or lifting for lethal damage. Easier to knock someone out than to kill them.

Also, I've discovered in my games, that a suit of standard military armor (+2D physical) pretty much negates most hand to hand fighters, unless they're a high strength character/race.

With my system, the (A)Martial Arts style augments a characters basic hand to hand knowledge, allowing him to perform maneuvers above and beyond what a basic brawler is capable of, which is how I feel it should be. But, there's no standard (A)Martial Arts skill, each is a "specialized style" which gives it a standard character point cost, but with the training time & requirements of an advanced skill. Also, if a character is trained in more than one combat style, they can only use one at a time, switching styles counts as an action, giving a -1D penalty. I use the same sort of thing with my lightsaber forms.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
After reading a post by Whill, I decided to start doing Full Strength damage as Stun damage, and if someone is actively trying to kill, they do half strength or lifting for lethal damage. Easier to knock someone out than to kill them.

Glad to be of service!
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
Quote:
That weapon block one seems a little "advanced" for a bar fighter. What do you think?

I might allow it if the opponent is wielding an improvised weapon (bar stool, broken bottle, etc.), but not a purpose-built weapon.


The idea was knives, broken bottles, pool cues, bar stools, mugs. Your typical street fighting expert has likely encountered melee weapons.

Quote:
What's your overall take on the RoE martial arts rules? To me, they seem like WEG was kind of back pedaling trying to come up with something that fits into their rules (which are difficult to manipulate when you want a specific outcome, such as more damage for "special" attacks).

I started working on a system that has various brawling skills (such as Brawling [Teras Kasi]) which are NOT specializations but regular skills in their own right that require a teacher to be able to learn (or else the character can always raise the basic brawling skill on his own). The different styles, like yours, have pros and cons (mostly situation-dependent pros), but in general are "better" than the basic brawling skill.


I... have mixed feelings about the way Martial Arts can be abused using the optional rule as written in RoE. The more I've been thinking about it, the more I've found that I feel brawling damage should be stun damage by default, it takes someone who has really trained their skill up to be able to kill someone with a punch, or it takes a ton of work.

After reading a post by Whill, I decided to start doing Full Strength damage as Stun damage, and if someone is actively trying to kill, they do half strength or lifting for lethal damage. Easier to knock someone out than to kill them.

Also, I've discovered in my games, that a suit of standard military armor (+2D physical) pretty much negates most hand to hand fighters, unless they're a high strength character/race.

With my system, the (A)Martial Arts style augments a characters basic hand to hand knowledge, allowing him to perform maneuvers above and beyond what a basic brawler is capable of, which is how I feel it should be. But, there's no standard (A)Martial Arts skill, each is a "specialized style" which gives it a standard character point cost, but with the training time & requirements of an advanced skill. Also, if a character is trained in more than one combat style, they can only use one at a time, switching styles counts as an action, giving a -1D penalty. I use the same sort of thing with my lightsaber forms.


I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the potential lethality of bare hands. I bet if I were to ask you right now how an untrained person could kill with bare hands you could come up with at least one way without a moment's hesitation (for example, strangulation).

Interesting fact I uncovered in my criminal justice statistics studies: more people are killed in the US each year by "hands and feet" attacks than are killed by rifles. Of course, this doesn't mean that hands and feet are more deadly than a rifle, but you could infer that for a civilian without access to a rifle (or handgun... or knife, for that matter), hands and feet can get the job done in a pinch.

I posted something a while back concerning the use of knives (and other little weapons) that allows a character to use the knife with the brawling skill instead of the melee combat skill. I imagine a street fighter would be exactly the type of character who would tend to rely on a rule like this (though I intended it for the SpecForce types, it seems even more applicable here).

The trade-off was that the knife loses it's bonus against unarmed opponents on attack and parry rolls (+10 and +5 respectively) and instead applies the +10 to damage rolled on a successful brawling attack. This makes the street fighter less likely to hit than a "trained" knife fighter (making it "safer" for his opponent in terms of getting hit), but significantly more deadly if a hit is scored (the idea was to simulate the lack of additional reach offered by a knife or vibro knuckles, etc. compared to a sword or axe or whatever, while also allowing for "assassin" types to make very deadly attacks with easily concealable weapons).

Maybe there is something there that you can use, if you see fit.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point. Feet and hands ARE deadly weapons in the right encounter.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the potential lethality of bare hands. I bet if I were to ask you right now how an untrained person could kill with bare hands you could come up with at least one way without a moment's hesitation (for example, strangulation).

Interesting fact I uncovered in my criminal justice statistics studies: more people are killed in the US each year by "hands and feet" attacks than are killed by rifles. Of course, this doesn't mean that hands and feet are more deadly than a rifle, but you could infer that for a civilian without access to a rifle (or handgun... or knife, for that matter), hands and feet can get the job done in a pinch.

I posted something a while back concerning the use of knives (and other little weapons) that allows a character to use the knife with the brawling skill instead of the melee combat skill. I imagine a street fighter would be exactly the type of character who would tend to rely on a rule like this (though I intended it for the SpecForce types, it seems even more applicable here).

The trade-off was that the knife loses it's bonus against unarmed opponents on attack and parry rolls (+10 and +5 respectively) and instead applies the +10 to damage rolled on a successful brawling attack. This makes the street fighter less likely to hit than a "trained" knife fighter (making it "safer" for his opponent in terms of getting hit), but significantly more deadly if a hit is scored (the idea was to simulate the lack of additional reach offered by a knife or vibro knuckles, etc. compared to a sword or axe or whatever, while also allowing for "assassin" types to make very deadly attacks with easily concealable weapons).

Maybe there is something there that you can use, if you see fit.


There is some merit to what you're saying, I'll mull it over a bit and think about what I want to do.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, knocking someone out makes it far easier if you wish to end them.

Also, some attacks, such as arm bars, omoplata, other joint locks or attacks, and so on can break limbs or destroy joints - but takes some time to apply (several combat rounds, usually). I still think it might be cinematically appropriate to allow a trained martial artist to apply this kind of targeted damage if the damage roll was sufficient to knock out or injure the opponent anyways.

A kick or punch to the throat or chest always has the possibility of being lethal when targeting a human. What that means to other physiologies would have to be ruled on by the GM.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
Of course, knocking someone out makes it far easier if you wish to end them.

Also, some attacks, such as arm bars, omoplata, other joint locks or attacks, and so on can break limbs or destroy joints - but takes some time to apply (several combat rounds, usually). I still think it might be cinematically appropriate to allow a trained martial artist to apply this kind of targeted damage if the damage roll was sufficient to knock out or injure the opponent anyways.

A kick or punch to the throat or chest always has the possibility of being lethal when targeting a human. What that means to other physiologies would have to be ruled on by the GM.


Exactly, but I didn't want martial arts to completely supplant melee weapons, especially not vibro weapons, however if you use the martial arts rules as written, a martial artist can use a spinning kick to do equal damage of a vibro-blade (Str+3D), which I don't think should be the case. I do think that a Martial Artist should be able to disable his opponent quickly and efficiently, because that's what they're trained to do. Which is why I started opting for the Full Strength = Stun Damage, Half = Lethal. Also, by making it Stun Damage, a martial artist cannot spin-kick their way through a Blast Door, which I've had someone attempt. You also don't necessarily have a Wookiee martial artist able to punch through a leg of an AT-ST, since a walker would be immune to Stun Damage.
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