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Bigkrieg
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Joined: 20 Jun 2011
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 Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| This is crazy! Good job man and thank you very much for sharing! |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Any chance of the database coordinates being avaible seperately? |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Any chance of the database coordinates being avaible seperately? |
I can make them available, but you do have to realize that it's a very large dataset. Also, it's not currently compiled in such a way as to make it very useful to you. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, to keep the discussion of my tool out of the 'official rules' thread, let me prompt the non-official talk here.
I'll start by responding to atgxtg, who says:
| atgxtg wrote: | | And since most of the travel times in the navicomp were chosen by the programmer, it's not like most of the travel times are offical. In fact a lot of offical RPG travel times were ignored. |
Yes, nearly all of the travel times between systems were assigned by me, given that the number of official system-to-system travel times are small in comparison to those that are necessary to build a network.
I'd challenge you on the second assertion. I did not ignore a lot of travel times. I've adopted all that I was aware of, except those listed in the gazetteer. If I did not adopt those that I was not aware of, then it's not a case of 'ignoring' them. I am anxiously anticipating your list from the adventures, so that I can see if these can still make sense in the post-TEA conception of the galaxy.
Now, I'll admit I omitted many of the Minos Cluster direct routes, but that is because many of those were longer than the indirect routes. If I had included them, the shortest-path calculator would have weeded them out anyway. The indirect routes came straight out of the book and are not assigned by me.
The thing is, you can't reasonably attack me from two angles. You want a galaxy that is significantly quicker to travel around than the WEG RAW has it set down. You're completely entitled to that point of view, and you make a good case for it.
You also tell me that I should have ignored the RAW from the Far Orbit book, and that many of the travel times listed on regional maps from the campaign books should be taken as artificial plot devices in order to keep the PCs in a given area.
However, if that's your position, it's not reasonable for you to also come after me for ignoring certain travel times that are written in the RAW. |
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Mikael Hasselstein"]To which rules upgrade do you refer?
The Rules Upgrade was a series of rule changes that came out after the 1st Edtion rulebook, but before 2nd Edition. Originally, it was a phamplet that came with the 1st edition adventures (Tatooine Manhunt, etc.), but was later expanded into a soft cover supplement.
| Quote: |
Both 2nd Ed. Core (p. 112) and 2nd Ed. R&E (p. 119) guidelines refer to the galaxy being crossed in several weeks to several months. |
The table you quote is also preceded by a note that the times listed \were rough guidelines, and are presented alongside the Gazeteer, which illustates that faster times are possible. In 2R&E the rough guidelines were preceded by the quote I gave earlier about there being faster routes.
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[Right, but the route pictured is between Chandrila and Brntaal - the Perlemian Trade Route - not a roundabout hyperspace bicycle path. |
It might as well be a roundabout hyperspace biycycle path. The jump zones from Brental extend as far out as 3 days travel with a x2 hperdrive (Far Orbit page 47). So it looks like a major factor in the travbel times is the time it takes to get to a jump point and get clearance to leave. So it isn't that the ships are going slow, just that it takes them longer to get started. A ship already in the hyperspace lane doesn't have hat problem.
And of course, the whole point of the Far Obit campaign was for the Pcs to be limited to the Ringali Shell.
[quote]
Awesome! I look forward to it.
| Quote: |
I'm not convinced by that argument. The shipping costs would only become unbearable for travel if the benefits were lower than the costs. However, if travel times are long, we should also presume that the benefits of transporting goods are greater. That simply means that ceteris paribus, domestic goods would be significantly cheaper than imports. If, however, the domestic production en masse of a good is not feasible (such as natural food products on Coruscant), then the prices would rise. |
Whatever the costs of shipping goods are, they would be passed down into the price consumers would have to pay for the product. So it ends up becomming a question of how much you are willing to pay for a "BIC" or "papermate" Pen. Eventually, they will be undercut by more "local" goods.
Now when you have hundreds and thousands of habitable planets in the "local" area (as in the Far orbit campaign) this becomes a virtual certainty-unless travel times are short.
You can see this in the RPG with Tramp Freighters. As the selling price of cargo has an upper cap to it, profit margins are tied to travel times. Low cost goods, like foodstuffs, become unprofitable over shorter distances that more expensive goods.
Buk freighters would be more economical, bt still subect to the same effects.
[quote]
However, the cost of living on Coruscant might be counterbalanced by a higher purchasing power parity (PPP) on Coruscant than elsewhere. In our world, a higher PPP in cities over rural areas, when it comes to foodstuffs is quite common. [/quoute]
PPP has limits. Especially in the area of small traders.
| Quote: |
Also, remember that the Empire is a rapacious dictatorship that benefits the Core over the outer worlds. They probably force the importation of foodstuffs at lower than equitable prices, cutting in on the farmers' wages. |
That's fine for the Empire, but probably doesn't help all the busnesses. I doubt every major company in the Star Wars universe is rapcious and using forced labor. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | To which rules upgrade do you refer? |
The Rules Upgrade was a series of rule changes that came out after the 1st Edtion rulebook, but before 2nd Edition. Originally, it was a phamplet that came with the 1st edition adventures (Tatooine Manhunt, etc.), but was later expanded into a soft cover supplement. |
So, an upgrade that preceded the sources I quoted.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Quote: | | Both 2nd Ed. Core (p. 112) and 2nd Ed. R&E (p. 119) guidelines refer to the galaxy being crossed in several weeks to several months. |
The table you quote is also preceded by a note that the times listed \were rough guidelines, and are presented alongside the Gazeteer, which illustates that faster times are possible. In 2R&E the rough guidelines were preceded by the quote I gave earlier about there being faster routes. |
Yes, but the guidelines are rough in that they give a range. Your suggestion that they might have meant 30 hours, where they literally say several weeks to several months strikes me as extremely far-fetched. I'm sure you're right in that that's what D20 and SAGA say, but to assert that this is what the WEG sources actually meant to say is unfathomable to me.
As to the Gazetteer, I think it's worthwhile to note that those were created before the mapping of the Galaxy in TEA. So, I'm sure they didn't design to have the guidelines and the gazetteer be contradictory to one another. I just don't think they had a well-thought-out conception of where things were in relation to one another.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Quote: | | Right, but the route pictured is between Chandrila and Brntaal - the Perlemian Trade Route - not a roundabout hyperspace bicycle path. |
It might as well be a roundabout hyperspace biycycle path. The jump zones from Brental extend as far out as 3 days travel with a x2 hperdrive (Far Orbit page 47). So it looks like a major factor in the travbel times is the time it takes to get to a jump point and get clearance to leave. So it isn't that the ships are going slow, just that it takes them longer to get started. A ship already in the hyperspace lane doesn't have hat problem. |
I think you're going out on the limb of interpretation here. The map says it takes 18 hours to get from Brentaal to Chandrila in 18 hours with a 1x hyperdrive. point. period. end.
Now the sentence you cite (on Far Orbit, pg. 47), perhaps you can help me with it, because it doesn't appear to make sense. If you can't (legally - which is not a problem for the Far Orbit, being a privateer) get into hyperspace until you get to the jump zone, why does it mention the time it takes to get from orbit to the jump zone with a 2x hyperdrive. If you can't use the hyperdrive, then the speed of the hyperdrive is not a relevant factor. It would be about the speed of the sublight drive instead.
| atgxtg wrote: | | And of course, the whole point of the Far Obit campaign was for the Pcs to be limited to the Ringali Shell. |
I don't think their purpose enters into it. If that's the case, then I could go and second-guess EVERYTHING, and then you'd happily beat me over the head for being arbitrary again.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm not convinced by that argument. The shipping costs would only become unbearable for travel if the benefits were lower than the costs. However, if travel times are long, we should also presume that the benefits of transporting goods are greater. That simply means that ceteris paribus, domestic goods would be significantly cheaper than imports. If, however, the domestic production en masse of a good is not feasible (such as natural food products on Coruscant), then the prices would rise. |
Whatever the costs of shipping goods are, they would be passed down into the price consumers would have to pay for the product. So it ends up becomming a question of how much you are willing to pay for a "BIC" or "papermate" Pen. Eventually, they will be undercut by more "local" goods. |
And I imagine that there is less 'galaxization' (SWU version of globalization) in the SWU than there is in the modern world, globally. Sure, domestic goods have a high advantage. However, in the core, where travel times are short, even in my conception (I mean, in my nav comp, there are several listed systems within 4 hours of Coruscant), that should not be in any way prohibitive. It takes just as long, or longer, to move food trucks around on our world. So, I think you're grasping at straws when it comes to the economic argument.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Quote: | | However, the cost of living on Coruscant might be counterbalanced by a higher purchasing power parity (PPP) on Coruscant than elsewhere. In our world, a higher PPP in cities over rural areas, when it comes to foodstuffs is quite common. |
PPP has limits. Especially in the area of small traders. |
PPP is a definitionally proportional concept. It should not matter much what the size of the vessel is. Besides, we already know that tramp freighters have a hard time competing in the core where the PPP argument would apply. Instead, they can make a handsome living out on the Outer Rim, exactly because they are the ones that can bring rare trade goods; trade being rare because long travel times bring up transaction costs for bulk haulers to operate outside of the context of corporations.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Quote: | | Also, remember that the Empire is a rapacious dictatorship that benefits the Core over the outer worlds. They probably force the importation of foodstuffs at lower than equitable prices, cutting in on the farmers' wages. |
That's fine for the Empire, but probably doesn't help all the busnesses. I doubt every major company in the Star Wars universe is rapcious and using forced labor. |
No, but the Empire can either force the hauling of foodstuffs to Coruscant (which they care about) or they can do the trick by keeping prices artificially high on Coruscant (less likely), or by keeping production costs artificially low on the agricultural worlds (far more their cup of tea, methinks).
By the way, I find it strange that you should cite Tramp Freighters at me, when the travel times listed in Tramp Freighters, black-on-white, are in my scale of travel times. Actually, I shortened the listed travel times of many of them by about half by figuring out the shortest-paths. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | So, an upgrade that preceded the sources I quoted. |
Yup, but keep in mind, most of the travel times that you have been using (such as the Minos Cluster) predate 2nd edition.
| Quote: | | Yes, but the guidelines are rough in that they give a range. |
They were "rought" in that they were never meant to be applied as hard and fast rules. I know you want to ingore the gazeteer, but it is right on the same page as the rough guidelines, and illustrates that you can get from one part of the galaxy to the other faster than on the rough guidelines table.
You idea that this was because the Atlas wasn't made yet, doesn't hold up. The guys who worte the Atlas had done some eailer versions, some of which were printed in 2E books, and the basic layout and locations of most, if not all, the systems in the Gazeteer were the same then as they are in the Atlas.
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Your suggestion that they might have meant 30 hours, where they literally say several weeks to several months strikes me as extremely far-fetched. |
What "suggestion. In the Rules Upgrade the specfically state to use hours instead of days, and the 1st edtion travel time across the galaxy was 30 days. So the change to 30 hours was offical.
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I'm sure you're right in that that's what D20 and SAGA say, but to assert that this is what the WEG sources actually meant to say is unfathomable to me. |
Look, some of the the same people were responsible for all the various SW RPGs to date. As time hasgone by, they have continually updated things to reflect new information Things like YT-1300 (not used in 1E-it was just "stock light freighter"), atmospheric speeds (originally the Speed Codes were the same in Space and in an atomospehere) .and more all got updated as the game went on.
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As to the Gazetteer, I think it's worthwhile to note that those were created before the mapping of the Galaxy in TEA. So, I'm sure they didn't design to have the guidelines and the gazetteer be contradictory to one another. I just don't think they had a well-thought-out conception of where things were in relation to one another. |
No. The map used that became the basis for the Atlas came out before 2nd Edition. The guys who did up the Atleas had the basic layout done years ago. So it's not that the Gazeteer had most of these planets closer togher than then eded up.
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I think you're going out on the limb of interpretation here. The map says it takes 18 hours to get from Brentaal to Chandrila in 18 hours with a 1x hyperdrive. point. period. end. |
Read the Book. The test on the page I quited, does specfically state that the long times to get to a jump point.
The map might say x hours to get from A to B, but you are assuming that this is entirely time spent in hyperspace or that the travel times for multiple system just add together.
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Now the sentence you cite (on Far Orbit, pg. 47), perhaps you can help me with it, because it doesn't appear to make sense. If you can't (legally - which is not a problem for the Far Orbit, being a privateer) get into hyperspace until you get to the jump zone, why does it mention the time it takes to get from orbit to the jump zone with a 2x hyperdrive. If you can't use the hyperdrive, then the speed of the hyperdrive is not a relevant factor. It would be about the speed of the sublight drive instead. |
I7m with you on this. It shouldn't have been a hyperdrive here at all. Even if it has been a sublight drive, the time it takes to get to a jump point doesn't make much sense to me. A ship would probably exist the star system much sooner than the time given.
But it certainly casts doubt on the times and numbers given in the Far orbit book, doesn't it?
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I don't think their purpose enters into it. If that's the case, then I could go and second-guess EVERYTHING, and then you'd happily beat me over the head for being arbitrary again. |
The author7s purpose does enter into it, as the travel times listed were never intened to be used outside of that supplement.
That is the thing about your argument about how GL doesn't need to be consistent but an RPG does. No, an RPG doesn't. And D6 certainly wasn't. That is why there are so many discrepancies.
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And I imagine that there is less 'galaxization' (SWU version of globalization) in the SWU than there is in the modern world, globally. |
What evidence we have goes in the opposite direction. We see more gaxlization. Just look at the ubigousness companies and ships.
Sure, domestic goods have a high advantage. However, in the | Quote: | | core, where travel times are short, even in my conception (I mean, in my nav comp, there are several listed systems within 4 hours of Coruscant), that should not be in any way prohibitive. It takes just as long, or longer, to move food trucks around on our world. So, I think you're grasping at straws when it comes to the economic argument. |
Okay, so manybe there are some systems a short distance for Coruscant. But they will kill off trade from more distant systems.You are also failing to consider the volumes involved and supply and demand. It is a matter of how many planets can supply enough food to feed Coruscant are within an acceptable travel time.
If you actually try playing a merchant campaign, you will see this pretty quickly. The longer a route takes, the lower your profits will be.
And even if the real world, we see this. Go buy something from overseas sometime and you will notice that the shipping costs can be higher than the cost of the product. Unless you are after some sort of specfic thing, it is not worth it.
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PPP is a definitionally proportional concept. It should not matter much what the size of the vessel is.
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Go back and look at ecomonics. Bug bulk containing ships and tankers are more economical than smaller vessels. THat is real life, not just Star Wars. That's why realworld ships keep getting larger. It drives the cost per unit down.
| Quote: |
Besides, we already know that tramp freighters have a hard time competing in the core where the PPP argument would apply. Instead, they can make a handsome living out on the Outer Rim, exactly because they are the ones that can bring rare trade goods; trade being rare because long travel times bring up transaction costs for bulk haulers to operate outside of the context of corporations. |
But that's h\just it. They won7t make a living on the Outer Rim,. The longer travel times will make the Outer Rim less profitable, becuase the travel times are longer.
For example, let's say a ship costs 7000 credits per month to operate. Now, the more cargo runs the ship can make in a month, the more prfotiable it will be. Now a trade route might have planets spaced 5 hours apart, but that doesn't mean that the closest planet is a viable market for a given cargo. As the buying and selling rpices of goods only vary by about 20% by the trade rules, long cargo runs just aren't economical.
I think what your matrix is-doing is making the Setting far more insular and less cosmopolitan than it it.
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No, but the Empire can either force the hauling of foodstuffs to Coruscant (which they care about) or they can do the trick by keeping prices artificially high on Coruscant (less likely), or by keeping production costs artificially low on the agricultural worlds (far more their cup of tea, methinks). |
For how long? And what about trade during the Republic? Robbing the Outer Rim to feed the Core only works as long as the Outer Rim can supply the goods. But if the runs are not profitable, the supply would die off. How long can a company operate with a defecit in the billions?
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By the way, I find it strange that you should cite Tramp Freighters at me, when the travel times listed in Tramp Freighters, black-on-white, are in my scale of travel times. Actually, I shortened the listed travel times of many of them by about half by figuring out the shortest-paths. |
Yeah, but try running a camapign in the Minos Cluster. Since none of he planets have custom trade profiles and the travel times are fairly long, most planets wouldn't trade with each other. At least according to how Tramp Freighter works. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | So, an upgrade that preceded the sources I quoted. |
Yup, but keep in mind, most of the travel times that you have been using (such as the Minos Cluster) predate 2nd edition. |
Actually, I'm using the 2nd ed. Tramp Freighters. Besides, the first edition Tramp Freighters was published after the 1st ed. Rules Companion, so having acknowledged their days-hours mistake, you think they just continued to publish with the earlier scale in mind?
| Quote: | | You idea that this was because the Atlas wasn't made yet, doesn't hold up. The guys who worte the Atlas had done some eailer versions, some of which were printed in 2E books, and the basic layout and locations of most, if not all, the systems in the Gazeteer were the same then as they are in the Atlas. |
To which earlier map do you refer? The only one I can remember is the one of 'the slice', which does not place any systems on it. Now it's totally possible that I missed it.
Modi's list of official maps says that the first galaxy map appeared in Star Wars Gamer, issue 5. That issue was published in 2001, nearly a decade after 2nd edition was published.
Also, according to Dan Wallace, Haden Blackman first made the rough layout. Now consider for a moment on the map on that page where Dantooine and Endor in respect to one another. They are on nearly opposite sides of the Outer Rim, without a major trade route in sight. Now, turn to the gazetteer. See that in the Gazetteer they are only 21 hours removed from one another. Now, look at Coruscant-Dantooine. It says 19 hours, but Coruscant-Endor is 6 days and 12 hours. Is Coruscant that much further away from Endor than Dantooine is? No. Is Dantooine closer to a trade route that will get you to Sullust, which will get you to Endor quicker? No. The gazetteer is simply at complete odds with the TEA-conception of the galaxy.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Quote: | | Your suggestion that they might have meant 30 hours, where they literally say several weeks to several months strikes me as extremely far-fetched. |
What "suggestion. In the Rules Upgrade the specfically state to use hours instead of days, and the 1st edtion travel time across the galaxy was 30 days. So the change to 30 hours was offical. |
I don't have a 1st edition copy on hand, so I suppose I'll have to take your word for it. But you sure are hanging your hat on a single line from something published 22 years ago that offers a blanket conversion of everything. Since everything that I've referenced was published after that, I'm not sure what point that makes.
| Quote: | | I'm sure you're right in that that's what D20 and SAGA say, but to assert that this is what the WEG sources actually meant to say is unfathomable to me. |
Look, some of the the same people were responsible for all the various SW RPGs to date. As time hasgone by, they have continually updated things to reflect new information Things like YT-1300 (not used in 1E-it was just "stock light freighter"), atmospheric speeds (originally the Speed Codes were the same in Space and in an atomospehere) .and more all got updated as the game went on.[/quote]I'm not sure what your point is here. If your point is that the WEG-stuff is defunct because the authors of that stuff have since recanted, then go play the new stuff. Obviously d6WEG is too obsolete to bother with and everyone here on this forum is a grognard luddite who would make the Amish proud.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Quote: | | I think you're going out on the limb of interpretation here. The map says it takes 18 hours to get from Brentaal to Chandrila in 18 hours with a 1x hyperdrive. point. period. end. |
Read the Book. The test on the page I quited, does specfically state that the long times to get to a jump point. |
I did read the book. I don't see where it says that the times-to-jum-point are included in the hours that are listed on the map. Yes, I'm making the assumption that those times are not included. You're making the assumption that they are.
| atgxtg wrote: | | But it certainly casts doubt on the times and numbers given in the Far orbit book, doesn't it? |
Maybe, but the moment I go and ignore that, is the moment you (or someone else) chews my @$$ for doing so.
| atgxtg wrote: | | That is the thing about your argument about how GL doesn't need to be consistent but an RPG does. No, an RPG doesn't. And D6 certainly wasn't. That is why there are so many discrepancies. |
It seems that you pick and choose where there are discrepancies and what needs to be ignored and what does not need to be ignored. All in the name of supporting your theory of ever-decreasing travel times to the point where you can get across the galaxy in 30 hours.
I understand that it isn't consistent. To keep my sense of the galaxy consistent I went with as broad an informational base as I could. So, I came to different conclusions than you did. I'm not sure why that sours your blood so much that you've spent all this time sniping at me.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Quote: | | And I imagine that there is less 'galaxization' (SWU version of globalization) in the SWU than there is in the modern world, globally. |
What evidence we have goes in the opposite direction. We see more gaxlization. Just look at the ubigousness companies and ships. |
That is not evidence of galaxization. You had such developments in the 17th and 18th centuries with the West and East India Companies on three-master ships.
| atgxtg wrote: | Okay, so manybe there are some systems a short distance for Coruscant. But they will kill off trade from more distant systems.You are also failing to consider the volumes involved and supply and demand. It is a matter of how many planets can supply enough food to feed Coruscant are within an acceptable travel time. If you actually try playing a merchant campaign, you will see this pretty quickly. The longer a route takes, the lower your profits will be. And even if the real world, we see this. Go buy something from overseas sometime and you will notice that the shipping costs can be higher than the cost of the product. Unless you are after some sort of specfic thing, it is not worth it.
Go back and look at ecomonics. Bug bulk containing ships and tankers are more economical than smaller vessels. THat is real life, not just Star Wars. That's why realworld ships keep getting larger. It drives the cost per unit down.
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Dude, honestly, I am working on a PhD in international relations. I understand concepts of volume, supply and demand, so there's no need to be pedantic. When I buy nearly anything at the store anymore it's coming off the boat from China. Note that it's a boat and it takes quite a while for that to sail across the Pacific. How is it cheap? Because PPP, lower labor costs, and the manipulated exchange rate of the Chinese currency make it so cheap to produce, and the boats are so big, that they make a healthy profit moving all those goods over long distances with long travel times.
If tramp freighters are going to be economical at all, they're going to have to find a niche market like Spice or old men accompanied by farm boys going to Alderaan. You seem to be fixated on tramp freighters transporting foodstuffs. I don't see why it should be a problem for gameplay that tramp freighter captains have to get inventive to make a living in the SWU. If he could make an easy living hauling wheat, Han Solo would not have been in such a bind with Jabba in the first place.
| atgxtg wrote: | | I think what your matrix is-doing is making the Setting far more insular and less cosmopolitan than it it. |
Yeah, Tatooine, Endor and Hoth are really cosmopolitan places.
| atgxtg wrote: | | For how long? And what about trade during the Republic? Robbing the Outer Rim to feed the Core only works as long as the Outer Rim can supply the goods. But if the runs are not profitable, the supply would die off. How long can a company operate with a defecit in the billions? |
During the Republic, when there was a Trade Federation blockading a world in order to get a preferred trade deal? That's not exactly a model of a liberal galactic market if you ask me. Who says that all agricultural planets are out on the Outer Rim?
Again, you made the point that volume is key. Foodstuffs to Coruscant are not going to be hauled in on stock light freighters. I'm not sure why you insist that a tramp freighter captain should be able to make a living doing so, and that this means that travel times have to be short.
Last edited by Mikael Hasselstein on Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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There are a lot of quotes going on, and I am having trouble following...
But did you also release a trade table Mikael to go with your Astrogation device? |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | There are a lot of quotes going on, and I am having trouble following... |
Sorry about that. It's just that atgxtg is intent on going for the jugular of my project, and I'm intent on avoiding his teeth.
| Azai wrote: | | But did you also release a trade table Mikael to go with your Astrogation device? |
No, sorry. I've only done travel times.
Over the past month, I've been working on expanding the scope of my device, but my energy and interest has significantly diminished. Perhaps atgxtg is right, and nobody will be interested in my system. In which case my efforts to bring it to a wider audience are futile, and I may as well let people live with the flawed version that's currently online. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | There are a lot of quotes going on, and I am having trouble following...
But did you also release a trade table Mikael to go with your Astrogation device? |
I suggested taking the Quote Wars to PM before, but I guess the advice was ignored.. 
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Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Azai wrote: | | There are a lot of quotes going on, and I am having trouble following... |
I suggested taking the Quote Wars to PM before, but I guess the advice was ignored.. |
Actually, your was not ignored - we viciously battled it out on the PM too. However, unless something went awry in transmission, I did not receive a response to my latest salvo at atgxtg from last week. At that point, the war on the forums resurfaced.
I think we may have tried to limit the quotes in the forums, but the range of fronts on which we disagree seems to be so great that if we don't do quote wars, we're not going to manage any clarity between us as to what counterpoint relates to what argument.
I think that it may help if more people weigh in on what they consider to be the best representation of the Star Wars galaxy.
The main argument is about general travel times between the scale of a minimum of 30 hours (atgxtg's contention) to cross the galaxy to a minimum of 18 days (my contention).
The other contention is the density of hyperspace routes and to what degree a well-plotted route is necessary to get from point A to point B. Atgxtg seems to think that the network is denser and that it's easier to travel in relatively uncharted hyperspace, whereas I think that the network is fairly sparse and it is very difficult to chart your own route.
I think if other people weigh in on this, it might break up (to a degree) the quote-wars. At least, the one who the majority of opinion seems to go against might lose the will to persist in the argument. I know that I am getting to the end of my tether in this regard. |
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Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Well, for what it's worth, I agree with you that the travel times should be longer. I think that's already a given, though, considering my support on the thread in the "Official" subforum.
The rules were geared for those travel times. Doesn't matter what the movies infer, what Lucas infers, what "seems" right...the game was created, the travel times were adjusted shortly afterwards, and cargo prices and adventures were geared towards the longer distances/slower travel times. New iterations of Star Wars may have shortened the travel times, but I'm sure those versions of the game (D20, Saga) had their adventures and prices for goods patterned after their estimation of travel times. To change WEG D6 Star Wars travel times to fit shorter times, it messes with any sort of quasi-balance that was calculated for D6.
Plus, if you make it so travel can be from one side of the galaxy to another in a few hours, there's nothing left to strive for in developing faster drives. "Faster? Why? We can already travel from the Outer Rim to the Core Worlds in 5 hours. Why spend money on something faster?" I could see that coming up often. Now if travel took a week or a couple weeks to do that same trip, there would be incentive for players to get faster drives and faster ships, and for more side adventures to occur during such a journey. If a GM didn't want side adventures, then they just do a time jump and say "Okay, you completed the journey with no hassle and only moderate boredom. You've arrived at the Core Worlds after 10 days travel."
Simple, and doesn't throw everything published for D6 out of whack.
So I say keep on trucking with how you've got it. Sure, double and triple check your numbers against published distances/times, but you don't have to (and shouldn't) try to make it "just like the movies". It can be Star Wars without flying from Tatooine to Coruscant in a day.
There's my 2 credits. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | The main argument is about general travel times between the scale of a minimum of 30 hours (atgxtg's contention) to cross the galaxy to a minimum of 18 days (my contention).
The other contention is the density of hyperspace routes and to what degree a well-plotted route is necessary to get from point A to point B. Atgxtg seems to think that the network is denser and that it's easier to travel in relatively uncharted hyperspace, whereas I think that the network is fairly sparse and it is very difficult to chart your own route.
I think if other people weigh in on this, it might break up (to a degree) the quote-wars. At least, the one who the majority of opinion seems to go against might lose the will to persist in the argument. I know that I am getting to the end of my tether in this regard. |
Ok, I have no definite view of the number of hours/days it will take to cross the galaxy. However, I think that 30 hours is way to fast. 18 days? Well, Id say closer to 18 days than 30 hours anyway. I really dont have anything to back me up here, just how I want to run the galaxy.
When it comes to hyperlanes I go for the sparse way. Goint straight out into nowhere is very hard... This way finding secret routes can be a great advantage..
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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I support a cross galaxy minimum travel time of near a month. 18 days even seem a little too short to me. Grimace and ZzaphodD have both posted good reasons to support long travel times, and I defer to them.
I do think that the network of routes is fairly dense, and that it's probably pretty easy to travel uncharted routes. I just think if a route is rarely traveled, there's a chance you could die even if you do everything "right"... The more traveled a route is, the more confidence everyone has in it.
I haven't really crystalized my thoughts on this subject, which is part of why I haven't weighed in as much as I would have liked. I'll think about it and see if I can't read up on it.
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