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Mixing the games..
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:57 pm    Post subject: Mixing the games.. Reply with quote

Brought out of a subject over on Dragon's foot where someone asked about "having a game within a game" (mostly for say card games, to give purpsoe to the Gambling proficiencies), has anyone thought of mixing up all the various board games/Minis games we have for SW??

Like when the party is in space combat, shifting it to the X-wing miniatures game, for running? Then if they get into cap ship combat, using Armada.. Or legion for large scale infantry battles??
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Mixing the games.. Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Like when the party is in space combat, shifting it to the X-wing miniatures game, for running? Then if they get into cap ship combat, using Armada.. Or legion for large scale infantry battles??


Considered it but never implemented. I'd love to see someone who actually tried it and what they thought, though.

I imagine from a narrative perspective it'd be difficult to pull off, plus there's the wildly different rulesets. I do think it could be made to work, though.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Mixing the games.. Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Brought out of a subject over on Dragon's foot where someone asked about "having a game within a game" (mostly for say card games, to give purpsoe to the Gambling proficiencies), has anyone thought of mixing up all the various board games/Minis games we have for SW??

Like when the party is in space combat, shifting it to the X-wing miniatures game, for running? Then if they get into cap ship combat, using Armada.. Or legion for large scale infantry battles??

Star Warriors was a space combat game made by WEG in the 1e years, and the ship stats were completely convertible between the two games. As a bit of cross marketing, some of the early 1e modules included a space combat sequence that was dual-statted in both the RPG's system and Star Warriors, plus the module included chits for the ships involved. It stated you could play it out either/or. I no longer have Space Warriors and don't really remember the system well enough to say whether it would skew the odds any (made space combat more or less deadly, etc.). My group sometimes played the Star Warriors game by itself but never really cared about incorporating it into the RPG, so we never did. Besides, space is 3D and the RPG preserves this by the "game board" being in the theater of the mind. Star Warriors said that if you wanted to add the realism of three dimensional space you could put the ship chits on stacks of pennies to represent the ships' relative heights to each other. What a nightmare that would be to deal with–No thanks. I did however take something from Star Warriors to house rule the RPG system–As a precursor to 2e's four fire/shield arcs system, Star Warriors had a two-arc system (front and back) which I incorporated into the 1e RPG rules. I still have a few ship stat sheets that preserve the memory of that mechanic.

The adventure module of Otherspace II likewise had an Assault on Hoth scenario that could likewise be run with either rules. I still have Assault on Hoth but I have never ran that module. If I ever did, I doubt I would bother with the Assault on Hoth option. I think Assault on Hoth is less related to the RPG than Star Warriors was, so it may skew the odds of the RPG system.

Crisis on Cloud City comes with Sabacc deck and rules, so it can be used in place of the RPG gambling rules. I've played Sabacc several times but IIRC only once as part of an RPG adventure. If the goal is to just interact with NPCs during the gambling game, or there is a plot-mandated interruption of the game like in the module, then the Sabacc game could work fine in an RPG adventure. Otherwise, there probably isn't a strong reason to not use the RPG rules for gambling.

Using other games that weren't designed to work with the RPG to take the place of RPG rules? Yeah it could be made to work but I probably wouldn't bother with it.

I am interested in designing an in-universe dice game that uses the FFG dice, because I have four sets and I am ok with them being used as actionable props for a fictional dice game. For the real world roleplaying, I am loyal to the cubic 'chance cubes' we call d6s.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Mixing the games.. Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I am loyal to the cubic 'chance cubes' we call d6s.


Not to be pedantic...(Oh, who am I kidding?) but "cubic chance cubes" evokes the Department of Redundancy Department trope. Razz Cool

As for the OP's question, I always imagined playing a SWD6 game with the space battles using the Star Wars mod of the FreeSpace space sim video game mission editor. Of course multiplayer missions are even harder to program than single player missions, to say nothing of bandwidth and connectivity issues and the logistics of using multiple computers during a gaming session such an effort would entail. But holy damnation, how awesome would it be to be able to pull that off during a SWD6 campaign?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Mixing the games.. Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Whill wrote:
...I am loyal to the cubic chance cubes we call d6s.

Not to be pedantic...(Oh, who am I kidding?) but "cubic chance cubes" evokes the Department of Redundancy Department trope. Razz Cool

I guess the joke wasn't that obvious. "Chance cubes" are just referring to d6s by an in-universe SW item. The adjective "cubic" was being used here in its "sacred" sense, referring to the "sacrilege" of using dice that are "evil" due to being polyhedral and not having pips or even numbers on them. So not redundant. Intentionally repetitive for emphasis!

Smile
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Inquisitor1138
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Mixing the games.. Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Brought out of a subject over on Dragon's foot where someone asked about "having a game within a game" (mostly for say card games, to give purpsoe to the Gambling proficiencies), has anyone thought of mixing up all the various board games/Minis games we have for SW??

Like when the party is in space combat, shifting it to the X-wing miniatures game, for running? Then if they get into cap ship combat, using Armada.. Or legion for large scale infantry battles??

Star Warriors was a space combat game made by WEG in the 1e years, and the ship stats were completely convertible between the two games. As a bit of cross marketing, some of the early 1e modules included a space combat sequence that was dual-statted in both the RPG's system and Star Warriors, plus the module included chits for the ships involved. It stated you could play it out either/or. I no longer have Space Warriors and don't really remember the system well enough to say whether it would skew the odds any (made space combat more or less deadly, etc.). My group sometimes played the Star Warriors game by itself but never really cared about incorporating it into the RPG, so we never did. Besides, space is 3D and the RPG preserves this by the "game board" being in the theater of the mind. Star Warriors said that if you wanted to add the realism of three dimensional space you could stack the chits on pennies to represent the ships' relative heights to each other. What a nightmare that would be to deal with–No thanks. I did however take something from Star Warriors to house rule the RPG system–As a precursor to 2e's four fire/shield arcs system, Star Warriors had a two-arc system (front and back) which I incorporated into the 1e RPG rules. I still have a few ship stat sheets that preserve that mechanic.

The adventure module of Otherspace II likewise had an Assault on Hoth scenario that could likewise be run with either rules. I still have Assault on Hoth but I have never ran that module. If I ever did, I doubt I would bother with the Assault on Hoth option. I think Assault on Hoth is less related to the RPG than Star Warriors was, so it may skew the odds of the RPG system.

Crisis on Cloud City comes with Sabacc deck and rules, so it can be used in place of the RPG gambling rules. I've played Sabacc several times but IIRC only once as part of an RPG adventure. If the goal is to just interact with NPCs during the gambling game, or there is a plot-mandated interruption of the game like in the module, then the Sabacc game could work fine in an RPG adventure. Otherwise, there probably isn't a strong reason to not use the RPG rules for gambling.

Using other games that weren't designed to work with the RPG to take the place of RPG rules? Yeah it could be made to work but I probably wouldn't bother with it.

I am interested in designing an in-universe dice game that uses the FFG dice, because I have four sets and I am ok with them being used as actionable props for a fictional dice game. For the real world roleplaying, I am loyal to the cubic chance cubes we call d6s.

My D6 group stuck with the main game for starship combat; i did try a few sessions with ground battles using the miniatures' rules, with varying degrees of success...

I have that Sabacc deck, & we used it several times as part of our game, and a few on its own! Much fun!
i have made scenarios with Crystals, Kyber variants, inspired by the FFG Dice.....
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:49 am    Post subject: Re: Mixing the games.. Reply with quote

Inquisitor1138 wrote:
i have made scenarios with Crystals, Kyber variants, inspired by the FFG Dice.....

Oh, do tell!
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:53 am    Post subject: Re: Mixing the games.. Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:

As for the OP's question, I always imagined playing a SWD6 game with the space battles using the Star Wars mod of the FreeSpace space sim video game mission editor. Of course multiplayer missions are even harder to program than single player missions, to say nothing of bandwidth and connectivity issues and the logistics of using multiple computers during a gaming session such an effort would entail. But holy damnation, how awesome would it be to be able to pull that off during a SWD6 campaign?


WIth how some do zooms with 30+ people at once, and they seem to not have much connectivity issues, it IS possible.. Assuming everyone has good internet though.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xwing - Past Attempts
My group had attempted to merge parts of X-wing into D20 starwars with some success - overall we found the following;

* The movement templates were pretty cool, and allowed a grid-less map.
* the simplicity of the range templates were cool too.
* Xwing combat was too deadly for the rpg - a pc ship could go from operational to destroyed - even faster than the rpg - so we used the RPG to hit, damage etc.

We basically just converted certain xwing actions into rpg actions.

Honestly - it worked out fairly well after a few playtesting games.


Xwing - Now on to D6...
Now that we are playing d6 again (d20 had a few nice things, but overall we choose to not play it anymore, preferring a house ruled d6 to be the best of everything).

I am reviewing what we had done previously (action wise, there is a lot of crossover between d20 and d6 - yes, really) and looking at how to incorporate into d6.

One goal is to try and map out the stat blocks for d6 into something compatible - as we have tons of d6 ship stats.

However, this may be a fruitless effort - as proven out by the many discussions and houes rules here - the d6 ship stats are ...messy...and very inconsistent.

One observation - if you convert a ship move into inches - ships in d6 much around a LOT more on a map than x-wing. In some ways this is a positive - but in others - it has obvious logistics considerations (needing a bigger map, flying off the edge).

Anyway, I am slowly working on it - as the xwing minis are really cool, and many of the simplicities work well.

Side note: The goal is to use d6's for everything - not the xwing dice - as they combine both a to hit and damage number into one roll - and it feels difficutl to map certain d6 skills into this - still, not sure.

I will be reviwind movement and combat seperately - then decided where to go from here.

Armada
I love armada, and as a long term wargamer (decades of warhammer, star fleet battles, battletech, starfire, squadleader, second fleet, etc.) I find the rules to be well written, and some exceptionally clever mechanics.

However, my personal feeling - is that captital (bit ships - like SD, not corvettes) - is a scene and story element - not typical RPG battle.

I may be in the minority for this - but I would use abstracted rolls and such a capital ship battle - not an actual space combat.

If I do something for Capital ships however - I will take some inspirations from armada - as I said, it is a pretty good ruleset - for smaller numbers of ships.


Sabacc
My group has a full sbacc (actually more than one) sabacc deck, and tons of metal credits etc. We love to play. We have talked about having the players of my rpg group play in character - but of course, such a think is - how do you best differentiate between PLAYER skill, and character (roll gambling to get another draw?).
(we play a slightly modified version of Cornellian spike, for any sabacc fans out there).



Conclusion
I think a hybrid of xwing with d6 rpg may be the the best of both - is a great idea. Love to see what others have done - as I am embarking on that path myself - just ...time.

I suspect I will end up with something similar to past efforts - something using xwing physical templates for movement and ranges - with d6 mechanics for shooting and damage.

Best of luck to whatever anyone else does, and please share!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played a lot of SW miniatures games*. I own them all except for SW: Imperial Assault, which I used to own but sold for assorted reasons. I would never use Legion with an RPG. Just use West End's miniatures battles rules and if you need cheap readily found minis, use multiple copies of the Legion core game.

Some of the West End adventure modules culminate in ground battles, at which point they switchover from the RPG to a Star Wars Miniatures Battles scenario. Converting PC stats from SW:TRPG to SWMB is easy.

*I refer only to wargames that use typical RPG style minis. Teeny toy spaceships n'at do not interest me. Even BDA is really pushing the envelope on what I'll accept though I do have 5 armies for that.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:

Sabacc
My group has a full sbacc (actually more than one) sabacc deck, and tons of metal credits etc. We love to play. We have talked about having the players of my rpg group play in character - but of course, such a think is - how do you best differentiate between PLAYER skill, and character (roll gambling to get another draw?).
(we play a slightly modified version of Cornellian spike, for any sabacc fans out there).



Where'd you pick up the various credits? I'd love to get some.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out hyperspace props.

They are amazing, and the folks who run it are really nice.
(tell em pak sent you!)

https://hyperspaceprops.com/

As I mentioned - besides playing sabacc - we use them for our credits in the game.

We started using physical props for credits years ago - using the star wars monopoly money, or printed stuff. The players love having something physical and tangible - and it 100% gets around any "did you mark your character sheet". This past game, one of the npcs dropped a bunch of credits - it was fun for me as the gm to throw them out on the gaming table - and hear them clink....and the party scoop them up!

We also use tokens for different expendables - medpacs, grenades etc.
Now, there is not question of "do you have that or is it the locker on the ship - the players disperse equipment in front of them, and can trade credits, blaster packs, medpacs, etc.).

(we have a small storage bin for party stuff - the creds are in there).

now, we use the metal credits - to make remembering values easy - they are written in a sharpie on the back. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
Check out hyperspace props.

They are amazing, and the folks who run it are really nice.
(tell em pak sent you!)

https://hyperspaceprops.com/


Outstanding, thank you.

I love the idea of having physical credits in-game to keep track of things - sadly (from that perspective, at least) we play online.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done literal sabacc games (using two different decks of sabacc cards) at the table amongst my characters.

And in my superhero campaign, I converted a board game called Lord of the Rings: The Confrontation, so that our PCs were the characters, and worked that into one of my games.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Mixing the games.. Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
Whill wrote:
...I am loyal to the cubic chance cubes we call d6s.

Not to be pedantic...(Oh, who am I kidding?) but "cubic chance cubes" evokes the Department of Redundancy Department trope. Razz Cool

I guess the joke wasn't that obvious. "Chance cubes" are just referring to d6s by an in-universe SW item. The adjective "cubic" was being used here in its "sacred" sense, referring to the "sacrilege" of using dice that are "evil" due to being polyhedral and not having pips or even numbers on them. So not redundant. Intentionally repetitive for emphasis!

Smile


Appropriate that - in the canon Star Wars galaxy - their choice of chance cube is essentially a d6!
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