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WotC/"New OGL"
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:05 am    Post subject: WotC/"New OGL" Reply with quote

Some of you may have heard the massive teeth-gnashing at the change of the OGL for D&D, and how it unauthorizes 1.0a and turns it into a money grab with version 1.1

Well, it turns out, the D6 OGL uses the 1.0a OGL, it even includes the Wizards of the Coast information. So it, too, would become invalid.

Thus, by default, from a legal standpoint, the OpenD6 OGL will be no longer valid the moment WOTC releases OGL version 1.1

I know there's not a whole ton of material that came out under of OpenD6 OGL, but there are a few out there, including Septimus, the D6System book as well as all of the Eric Gibson WEG material, and Westward & Azamar from Wicked North Games , plus some smaller supplemental products like In Flames, Destiny6 and many others.

Now that obviously won't stop any fan-released stuff for Star Wars, but it has the potential to significantly affect the future development of OpenD6.

Thoughts?



ADMIN EDIT: This post contains misinformation.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The future development of OpenD6? Is OpenD6 developing? My impression was that it was already dead, or at best on life support. But maybe you know more than me. What is currently happening in OpenD6? What upcoming projects are threatened?
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if there was anything for certain, but I had heard of some projects in mind with people from a few years back (right before Covid hit).

But the thing is, it also invalidates anything previously put out under the OGL.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote




EDIT: This is a joke.
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally don't think WotC cares one whit about the OSR, or retro clones of OD&D, B/X, BECMI, AD&D, 3.5 or 5e.

I truly believe the 1.1 OGL license is geared towards those companies that would make virtual products compatable for virtual 1D&D.

It seems that WotC is gearing all their actions into the virtual world and micro transactions for 1D&D. If so, they would want to control who can add to the virtual marketplace, and who can run the virtual marketplace.

I also feel that the language of the OGL, and the FAQ from WotC themselves, shows that the OGL is non-reversable.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a purely legal standpoint, WoTC updating the gaming license can only invalidate the previous license in regards to products WoTC has authority over. Products made by other companies referencing the previous license that are not beholden to WoTC and not for properties controlled by WoTC will not be affected unless the other parties who also used the context of the OGL also state acceptance of the new OGL. As WoTC never owned or had any authority over D6, nor is D6 in any way a supporting product for a WoTC owned property, they can not invalidate the 1.0a license as it pertains to D6.
While they could try to argue the old license is no longer authorized to be used with creating new material, existing products may still be published, sold, or distributed.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't researched it in depth but so far that has my findings as well. The change seems to be focused on those making money off of D&D-compatible games, which would have zero bearing on OpenD6. Also, it is my understanding that they withdrew the license for 4e, only to come out back out with it for 5e and now this altered version. If the 4e removal didn't affect OpenD6 products using the original OGL, then I don't see how this does either.

So unless anyone has a reputable source to share, let's steer away from unfounded conclusions and speculation along the lines of 'This undoes OpenD6.'

And even if this did undo OpenD6, it still has little impact on the movement because OpenD6 is already almost nil as it is. If anything, plans before the pandemic should have been accelerated by the pandemic, as many people found themselves with a lot more time to engage in creative pursuits. March of 2020 is still the all time biggest traffic this site has ever seen.

And even if this did undo OpenD6, it still has very little impact on the primary purpose we are here. Star Wars D6 has been a dead game since 1998, yet we persist. This site has survived the end of the official WEG forums, and its successor. We've survived the demise of the WEG as an active brand. We've survived the OpenD6 movement. We've survived two other official Star Wars RPGs (and the third one is just now started coming out with reprints). Star Wars D6 will be around as long as we are.
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Jerrod Owex
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL;DR - This OGL is a threat to ALL TTRPGs!(potentially and allegedly, since it's all still speculation)

Without going into a lot of fear stuff this OGL 1.1 IS something that we NEED to be worried about! As you said Whill "Star Wars D6 will be AS LONG AS WE ARE"! If WotC/Hasbro wants, they can through C&Ds at the site hosting company, scare them with a lawsuit and if they DO actually fight it they might go into bankruptcy and then we lose this site! Move to a different you say?! Wash, rinse, repeat! Hasbro is TOO BIG for most people to compete with in what I have seen referred to as "lawfare" a few times!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerrod Owex wrote:
TL;DR - This OGL is a threat to ALL TTRPGs!(potentially and allegedly, since it's all still speculation)

Without going into a lot of fear stuff this OGL 1.1 IS something that we NEED to be worried about! As you said Whill "Star Wars D6 will be AS LONG AS WE ARE"! If WotC/Hasbro wants, they can through C&Ds at the site hosting company, scare them with a lawsuit and if they DO actually fight it they might go into bankruptcy and then we lose this site! Move to a different you say?! Wash, rinse, repeat! Hasbro is TOO BIG for most people to compete with in what I have seen referred to as "lawfare" a few times!

That's "without" the "fear stuff"? Perhaps you didn't read all of my posts. Go back and read them slowly. No crazy fear mongering.

And WTH are you even rambling about? WEG Star Wars is not OpenD6. This site pre-existed OpenD6. This site is devoted to a dead RPG that has nothing to do with Hasbro. WotC has no power to issue any C&Ds to my hosting company for any reason. If you think that Hasbro owns the entire history of the D6 system because Eric Gibson used the OGL to open a subset of D6 products, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Since I have no choice but to respond to crazy: If I had to take the Purgatory D6 books down from the Library, I could within minutes. Boom, no OGL. Those books are completely non-essential to this WEG Star Wars fan community. But WotC has no cause to go after OpenD6 anyway. OpenD6 is not a threat to them. OpenD6 is all but dead already.

Hasbro is just protecting their own IP and making sure they get royalties if a company making D&D-compatible products makes over a certain $ amount per year. They are welcome to try. They can make all the money they want off of d20. It's a utterly uncinematic game system for Star Wars and this site will never be involved with making any D&D-based OGL products, for sale or for free.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerrod Owex wrote:
TL;DR

This...this is everything wrong with the internet. Not bothering to read what's already been said and jumping in with posting more speculation and misinformation.

Jerrod Owex wrote:
- This OGL is a threat to ALL TTRPGs!(potentially and allegedly, since it's all still speculation)

Without going into a lot of fear stuff this OGL 1.1 IS something that we NEED to be worried about! As you said Whill "Star Wars D6 will be AS LONG AS WE ARE"! If WotC/Hasbro wants, they can through C&Ds at the site hosting company, scare them with a lawsuit and if they DO actually fight it they might go into bankruptcy and then we lose this site! Move to a different you say?! Wash, rinse, repeat! Hasbro is TOO BIG for most people to compete with in what I have seen referred to as "lawfare" a few times!


Again, no, it is not a threat to anyone or anything that is not published based on a WoTC owned property as WoTC has no legal authority to send C&D or DMCA notices for properties they do not own.
When it comes to frivolous C&D and DMCA notices, well, the OGL was never needed before and will have no impact now. Companies such as Hasbro, Disney, Paramount, Games Workshop, etc... have a long history of C&D and Frivolous litigation to end competitors, and your right, small companies just can't afford the expense (GW killed Target Games, Harlequin Games, and many others because "They are making a miniature wargame therefor they are infringing on Warhammer"). This is nothing new. I have had to defend original fantasy artwork I made that was subject of frivolous claims from GW (because they thought they owned elves and dwarves and orks). It can be done, even by a disabled individual with no income, if you get your ducks in a row and have the facts to back up your claim. There is no need to spread fear based on speculation and the erroneous belief that somehow Hasbro and Wotc own ALL gaming because the OGL exists.

I have since read the OGL 1.0a and I can say legitimately that the language in it prevents 1.1 being a threat even to NEW creations based off of ANY material previously released under OGL 1.0a regardless of what WoTC says - even D&D material. The new license can only apply to NEW material from D&D published under OGL 1.1 as OGL with 1.0a clearly stated as it's terms. All any publisher, author, or creator has to do is dredge up any old D&D OGL published licensed book that has the OGL 1.0a in it listing what is covered under it.

Hasbro/WoTC pushing 1.1 is clearly a knee-jerk response to the fact that the previous OGL combined with their complete mismanagement of the D&D property leading to third parties making more profit on it than they are, and the rise of a competing game (Pathfinder) that is compatible but is becoming more popular.

What some are saying online regarding the impact of ogl 1.1would be no different than if Hasbro/WoTC sent me a C&D letter to stop running AD&D 2nd edition, and immediately hand over my books or prove they were destroyed because they no longer fit with the vision of One D&D. I would laugh in their face and insist they go ahead and take me to court.

Essentially, WoTC are trying to put a Genie back in the bottle and make it retroactive - it will not work. Will it have consequences and ripples throughout the gaming industry? Sure. Will it likely lead to a third party creating an Open Gaming License for NON WoTC companies to voluntarily adapt (in the style or spirit of the Creative Commons licenses popular in various creative fields now)? Likely, and this would be a good thing. Will it lead to court battles in the style of Harmony Gold vs. Fasa? Probably. Will it affect Open D6? That depends on the grit and determination of those publishing books for it and whether they decide to continue or just give up. Legally though, it has no standing or ability to affect anything but products directly tied to or relying on WoTC IP.

As Open D6 was released under OGL 1.0a, with a printed declaration of the terms of OGL 1.0a and what was included under those terms in the game system that could be used in the development of new material, any creator can continue to create content under that license legally and perpetually. The only company that has the legal authority to send a C&D letter to anyone creating content for D6 is the current owner of the IP and the WEG brand (Nocturnal Media). Even in that event, they would not really have a legal standing to override OGL 1.0a regarding using previous material licensed under it unless they could prove some form of breach of it's terms.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 4:52 am    Post subject: Re: New OGL Reply with quote

Since it reared its ugly head here, of all corners of the gaming universe, I begrudgingly took some time to read about this new OGL hubbub...

I had already known about Paizo's Pathfinder, the #2 top selling RPG in the world, but I do not own it. I do own some of the Starfinder game (core). Starfinder is of course a space fantasy game set in the future of the Pathfinder setting. The core book has a lot of nice art and some interesting fluff. I own the entire game line of Dragonstar, an earlier a space fantasy game (FFG/Mystic Eye). Some good art and ideas. And I own DC Adventures, the DC-flavored core book of the Mutants & Mastermind 3e superhero game, and Golden Age, an 2e M&M supplement (Green Ronin). I'm a DC Comics fans. But I've never played any of these games and I never will, outside of maybe a one-shot.

All these are OGL books, and the game mechanics are based on d20, some more modified than others. What I hadn't fully realized until this week is that there are a lot more OGL d20-based games out there by a lot of different publishers. But I'll come back to that...



Grimace wrote:
Some of you may have heard the massive teeth-gnashing at the change of the OGL for D&D

Some here may have, but I actually hadn't until you posted this. But I don't hang out in any D&D/d20 communities. There is one 'dead RPG' group I am a member of on Fb, and one user hysterically exclaimed that all non-D&D 5e games are dead games now. This really speaks to what is really happening...

Quote:
...and how it unauthorizes 1.0a and turns it into a money grab with version 1.1

This was my impression too. But it was WotC trying to grab money from other gamer companies currently using their game mechanics for free. This has zero real significance to this website, so it is nothing more than somewhat interesting news about the general game world out there, which is appropriate for this Miscellanea forum.

Quote:
Well, it turns out, the D6 OGL uses the 1.0a OGL, it even includes the Wizards of the Coast information.

Yes...

Quote:
...So it, too, would become invalid.

Thus, by default, from a legal standpoint, the OpenD6 OGL will be no longer valid the moment WOTC releases OGL version 1.1...

Thoughts?

My thoughts are that you have no way of knowing this, and if you aren't an IP lawyer than I do not believe you are qualified to make these statements so conclusively. We have consistently demonstrated that we do not appreciate unfounded speculation presented as fact here. How many times was Kathleen Kennedy fired over the years?

Quote:
I know there's not a whole ton of material that came out under of OpenD6 OGL, but there are a few out there, including Septimus, the D6System book as well as all of the Eric Gibson WEG material, and Westward & Azamar from Wicked North Games , plus some smaller supplemental products like In Flames, Destiny6 and many others.

Yes.

Quote:
Now that obviously won't stop any fan-released stuff for Star Wars, but it has the potential to significantly affect the future development of OpenD6.

I touched on this in the thread above. The OpenD6 projects in the works before the pandemic had plenty of opportunity to come out as at least digital products by now, more opportunity than they would have without the pandemic. As Magman expressed, the big D6 renaissance that he, Eric Gibson, you, me, and many others had hoped would happen to the RPG industry as a result of OpenD6 has never come to pass. It's looking extremely unlikely that it ever will happen.



Jerrod Owex wrote:
TL;DR - This OGL is a threat to ALL TTRPGs!(potentially and allegedly, since it's all still speculation)

Without going into a lot of fear stuff this OGL 1.1 IS something that we NEED to be worried about! As you said Whill "Star Wars D6 will be AS LONG AS WE ARE"! If WotC/Hasbro wants, they can through C&Ds at the site hosting company, scare them with a lawsuit and if they DO actually fight it they might go into bankruptcy and then we lose this site! Move to a different you say?! Wash, rinse, repeat! Hasbro is TOO BIG for most people to compete with in what I have seen referred to as "lawfare" a few times!

As ThrorII and KageRyu already indicated, my further findings further agree that the leaked OGL would try to get a 25% royalty from game publishers using d20-based game mechanics text and grossing over $750,000 in revenue; so Paizo, Kobold Press, Green Ronin, and maybe others. OpenD6 is not in any way related to d20 mechanics, and OpenD6 isn't grossing anyone six figures anyway.

Even worse than proclaiming this leaked OGL would somehow affect D6 is the mystifying sentiment that this would be a threat to all RPGs. The mental gymnastics it takes to get to that is utterly baffling. But ultimately, your paranoid delusions are your own damn business and none of mine, so my real issue is with them being shared on this website.

This and some previous situations have lead to this: I am 'leaking' that I will be updating the forum posting guidelines to include that it will become explicitly forbidden to induce or attempt to induce hysteria in this community. It will also be forbidden to ever publicly state or imply that this website is, may be, or will be involved in any sort of legal situations. If you have any legal concerns about this site, you will PM them to me. And keep in mind than there is already a guideline against PM harassment of any member of this site, including me. I can very easily remove anyone's ability to PM, so it will probably be best to just keep the batsh!t crazy to yourself.


Arrow An Update on the Open Game License by DND Beyond Staff

WotC finally issued a statement (linked above) in response to the leak. Read it yourself. They are publicly stating that they are removing the royalty structure and the license back provision, the things that caused the uproar in the first place.

The new statement still does not hide the fact that they begrudge (other) corporations making millions off of material they had given them freely, even if they can't do anything about it without a PR debacle. In the past week, game companies had already declared their intention to start getting away from d20 and developing their own truly, irrevocably free game systems for all to use. I think that is wonderful! Maybe it will steer the rest of the RPG industry away from this heavy dependance on d20.

In the early to mid aughts I was running WEG Star Wars campaigns while also a player in another gaming group that played a D&D 3e campaign followed by a 3.5 campaign. The GM was very creative, and the D&D group were good friends of mine, but I truly despised d20 the more I played it. Toward the end, my patience for it ran thin and some occasional complaints about it slipped out. During downtime at game sessions, Star Wars would sometimes come up in discussions (this was the prequel era so everyone had lots of varied opinions). Three of the other players expressed interest in playing WEG Star Wars. I think the GM felt I was trying to steal his players, and I stopped being invited to play D&D. Since then I've only played a d20-based game one time when I played a one-shot adventure of WotC Star Wars Saga Edition.

This week I have realized more than ever how little I have in common with a very large number of other roleplayers in the world. I think d20 sucks, and the only reason I can think of why it is so popular is because WotC gave it away because they thought the OGL would help them by making sure a lot of competing games out there have a similar game system so the other games would be a gateway to D&D, or the transition back to D&D after playing these other games would be easier on players. WotC seems to now be realizing that these other d20-based games are making a lot of money so they are taking a lot of customers away from D&D and maybe keeping them. But WotC is still on top. It is just like a leader of an industry to be greedy and think they deserve an ever bigger piece of the pie than they are already getting.

I used to think that the bulk of RP gamers were a fickle lot whose favorite game was the flavor of the month. Maybe that's true but a lot of games are just different flavors covering up the same damn crappy base game system. Hopefully, even with WotC backing down, this fiasco will still bite them in the @$$. And if any other companies are ruined them by striking out on their own away from d20, that's sad but ultimately it is their own doing. They always had the option to make an original game system or use an existing one, like D6, or something else. Maybe they shouldn't have adopted the business strategy of wheeling the d20 gift-horse from their biggest competitor into their city. (There are soldiers inside just waiting for their "attack of opportunity" with their polyhedral dice.)

From what I've read this week, OpenD6 was always doomed to failure because gamers, by and large, hate arithmetic. Well I don't. Throughout this d20 Era I now realize we have been living in for many years, I'm still just a D6 grognard.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote





Arrow Paizo announces system-neutral Open RPG Creative license (ORC)

There are books already at the printers, and kickstarters in the works that will still be OGL, but many companies have announced that regardless of what WotC does, they are done with OGL as soon as possible. Fans are unsubscribing from WotC services in droves. Social media is flooded with anti-WotC sentiment. Of course, they aren't going out of business and they will still have a solid core of diehards who aren't interested in anything but D&D and maybe other WotC games. But WotC hurt themselves and things will never be the same.

Paizo says that with Pathfinder 2e they relied less on OGL d20 game mechanics text and the OGL was mainly so their works would still be open for others to build off of, the same purpose that OpenD6 used the OGL. Paizo is partnering with Kobold Press, Chaosium, Green Ronin, Legendary Games, Rogue Genius Games, and a growing list of publishers to create and support new Open RPG Creative License, an alternate system-agnostic open game license that will not be owned by any of the companies. It will instead be managed by a non-profit organization. Paizo's law firm will help establish this for the industry at Paizo's expense. A lawyer at Paizo's law firm used to work for WotC and helped create the original OGL. The end result will be that the industry still has an open game license option without any connection to WotC.

And even though WotC seemed to backdown from worst aspects of the leaked draft of the new OGL, Paizo said they firmly believe that the original OGL is irrevocable and they are prepared to do a legal battle over it if need be. But WotC is bleeding loyal customers right now so they would absolutely idiotic to pursue royalties any further.

The sad news is, d20 is deeply intrenched in the game world to a larger degree than I had even realized before this week. Since under copyright law you can only copyright text describing game rules and not game systems themselves, quasi-d20 rules are probably still going to be the norm in the industry. Oh well. At least we still have Star Wars D6.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Paizo is partnering with Kobold Press, Chaosium, Green Ronin, Legendary Games, Rogue Genius Games, and a growing list of publishers to create and support new Open RPG Creative License, an alternate system-agnostic open game license that will not be owned by any of the companies.


I just needed to say - did I call it or what? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know most people will want to stick with something more glitzy like Pathfinder, but The DCC RPG by Goodman Games is really all the D&D I'll ever need again. There's just so much to recommend it over other fantasy roleplaying games. It's an old open-source D20 engine thing, but it's departed enough from that, I can't imagine it being in any way affected by this change. Hasbro gets enough of my money through reissuing Kenner figs, they won't be getting any of my gaming money.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WotC is Thanos...



And virtually all OGL licensees will move away from any OGL by WotC.

KageRyu wrote:
I just needed to say - did I call it or what? Very Happy

You did, early Tuesday.

TauntaunScout wrote:
Hasbro gets enough of my money through reissuing Kenner figs, they won't be getting any of my gaming money.

Just last week I was looking at my figure collection list and looking into a couple characters I don't have. They were only made as part of multi-character sets. Not going to pay for a multi-pack for a character that should be on a single card. So my collection is tentatively complete.
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