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The Str 7D Esoomian
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:46 pm    Post subject: The Str 7D Esoomian Reply with quote

I once played an esoomian named Koroq ("Rocco" with the eye rolling tagline of "Rocco smash!") who I statted out at the maximum 7D Strength and minimum 1D Knowledge. I did think intentionally knowing it would both help and hurt me. Sure, I was not too afraid of small arms fire, but I was by no means blaster proof. Also, if I acted like I had not a care for the law, then I would have to answer to imperials or planetary police who could bring to bear speeder scale weapons or heavy repeaters if needed. Even though I had massive strength, it did not make me invincible or make the game less fun.

So my question is: have you as a GM (or player) every really had a problem with high attributes or stats that could not be mitigated by a good GM? I know the math behind the 6D STR blaster proof wookie, but I can tell you that actually playing a 7D STR esoomian was not a problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I have never had that problem in my game, but that may be because I have never allowed that level of min-maxing in my game. Part of being a good GM is knowing your weaknesses. For examples, one of my weaknesses is dealing with grenades.

Another weakness I have is an extreme intolerance for power gaming. It is the epitome of selfish roleplaying, where a player's personal enjoyment of dominating enemies outweighs any interest in collaborative story making. I've only experienced it with other co-players (as a player under other GMs), which is thankfully rare in my life since I much rather be the GM. It was really challenging for me to suppress my face's expression of disgust and contempt for the players and GMs (and convention groups) who allow it.

Min-maxing is the path to powergaming. In Star Wars, I have several character creation rules to stymie it. One is, regardless of species attribute ranges, no PC may have less than 2D in any non-Force attribute, or greater than 5D in any attribute. So only NPCs can have normal attributes below 2D and above 5D, for species with such attribute ranges. Furthermore, no PC may have more than one attribute with a value of 4D or higher. The exception is if it is a predesigned PC template of mine that breaks the rule. I'm pretty sure there is only a single one that slightly does (a Shard astromech droid that has a 5D TEC and a 4D MEC).

The rules do also have another practical purpose. Shrinking players groups and normal player attrition over the course of a campaign generally mean fewer PCs have to cover the total PC group skill set needed. Overspecialized PCs tend to be a problem for their group's success, and their own survival. PCs inevitably end up on their own at some points in some adventures of the campaign. But also necessary for the group's success and survival are unselfish players.

In my life, I have only had a couple players I hadn't previously played with who decided not to play in my game after learning about my character creation rules. They never explicitly stated it was because they couldn't create munchkins, but others players told me they thought that was why. If so, then the preventative measures worked as intended, and no one had to see my "ugly face."

If you say you made a 7D STR and 1D KNO character only to create a challenging roleplaying experience for yourself and it was never a problem in the game, then I believe you. But that PC could still never exist in my game because then it wouldn't be fair to any wannabe powergamers who I wouldn't let do it.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can certainly understand that and know there are quite a few power gamers out there. This was my first and only extreme character, as I usually pick mundane and average characters. While Rocco was a brute, he didn't really spend much time busting skulls and more often found himself in situations where he just did not fit - both socially and physically. The GM also ran this character solo, so character composition was not a factor - I was ill equipped to deal with a lot of situations, so had to make friends in the criminal underground for support. Eventually I threw this character as an NPC opponent at the person who GMed for me in a pit fight!

Incidentally, my worst experience with min/max power gamers were all humans or aliens with attributes comparable with humans. I never got the appeal - what fun is it to even think you are always going to succeed at everything?

I recall a friend of a friend who was all about power gaming with Warhammer Fantasy Battles. My friend I are travelled from Arizona to California to play a massive battle with this guy. He spend hours talking about how his Bretonnian army was statistically unbeatable and X and Y and blah blah blah. He had every scenario figured out and foiled. My friend and I were playing a massive undead army that was purchased for theme and fun rather than to win. However, after hearing this blow hard go on and on, I reconfigured the army using a cheap tactic creating tiny units of zombies to act as speed bumps. The rules were there and could be exploited, so I dud- not because I thought it would be fun, but to take him and his attitude down a peg. He ended up having to charge one of the speed bump zombie units with his big bad unit of ultra knights, so he was stopped and the next turn I bogged him down with a massive zombie horde. In a turn or two his army was crumbling and his elite super win unit was tied up in a hopeless battle with an constantly replenishing horde of 120 or so zombies. He ended up rage quitting, making all kinds of excuses and saying hiw the game rules were broken because I found a way to exploit them to his detriment. He never got the point, unfortunately and we spent the rest of the weekend hearing him talk about how he could reconfigure his army to beat my army with 98% certainty...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:04 am    Post subject: Re: The Str 7D Esoomian Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I once played an esoomian named Koroq ("Rocco" with the eye rolling tagline of "Rocco smash!") who I statted out at the maximum 7D Strength and minimum 1D Knowledge. I did think intentionally knowing it would both help and hurt me. Sure, I was not too afraid of small arms fire, but I was by no means blaster proof. Also, if I acted like I had not a care for the law, then I would have to answer to imperials or planetary police who could bring to bear speeder scale weapons or heavy repeaters if needed. Even though I had massive strength, it did not make me invincible or make the game less fun.

So my question is: have you as a GM (or player) every really had a problem with high attributes or stats that could not be mitigated by a good GM? I know the math behind the 6D STR blaster proof wookie, but I can tell you that actually playing a 7D STR esoomian was not a problem.


Add in armor, and that 7d can become easily 9d to resist blaster fire.. You'd need either paired E-webs firelinked, to challenge that guy, AND THAT level of firepower, is overly deadly to anyone else in a group..
So while it may NOT seem like you, have a problem, i can honestly say, YES it will be, to others.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did play this character solo, so problem fir others wasn't an issue. I was never faced with E-WEBs but I was in real danger plenty of times.

I have noticed a tendency that people assume the span of a couple dice in defence over attack damage makes the defender invulnerable. That is the type of thinking my friend's friend in California had - how his army was unbeatable. It was not. When I attacked him and won when ststistically I should not have (never telm me the odds!), he was mad that I even tried (and succeeded) because I should have known I was supposed to fail. I have several examples of this with other players too come to think of it. Power games tend to get mad when their calculated probabilities do not play out. To me, the fun is knowing "There's a chance!"

In Star Wars I have seen more times than I can remember a horrible defence roll with a lot of dice paired against a wonderful damage roll with fewer dice and a few 6's on wild dice.

No one is safe from damage. Less likely to get hurt, yes, but blaster-proof, no. That is decades on Star Wars and thousands of rolls for my support. However, as commercials say "individual results may vary". Aside from stats and odds, do you have experiences as a player or GM to share when a player with a high attribute worked well? Secondarily, an example where it did not work well (those are probably more abundant).
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: The Str 7D Esoomian Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
This was my first and only extreme character, as I usually pick mundane and average characters.

The average PC attribute is 3D, so PCs are far from mundane and average characters, by design. I'm presuming you mean your PCs usually have attributes close to the average for PCs.

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
Incidentally, my worst experience with min/max power gamers were all humans or aliens with attributes comparable with humans. I never got the appeal - what fun is it to even think you are always going to succeed at everything?

Yes, Star Wars power gamers will min-max attributes, which can be for humans or any species. But in my experience they are also fond of choosing species with game-breaking special abilities in RAW. Like species with +2D to all of one attribute's skill and attribute rolls (Verpine PCs are effectively 20D character in RAW). Or species with the PC creation rules of 2-for-1 in skill dice allocation, which variably multiply their skill dice.

In my game, I have replaced these broken mechanics with flat bonus skill dice for allocation to certain skills during char gen or flat skill roll bonuses to a skill or short list of skills in play. All PCs in my game get exactly 18D in attributes regardless of typical species stats, and all these species have special abilities packages equalling approximately 4D in skill dice (but game balance is an art not a science). Including humans, whose versatility allows them to get 4D in extra skill dice that can be allocated to any skills in char gen. But humans are still a bit superior due to story factor, because all aliens are subject to some degree of species discrimination in the Empire.

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I did play this character solo, so problem fir others wasn't an issue.

Being a solo PC does eliminate the game balance aspect with other PCs, but I have ran solo campaigns before and in my experience it is is even more important for the PC to be a well balanced character, because they have no one else in their group to depend on for deficient skills. The solo campaigns I have ran in the past are sequel campaigns to group campaigns, so the PCs were built up well beyond beginning characters, with raised skills on every attribute.

garhkal wrote:
Dr. Bidlo wrote:
So my question is: have you as a GM (or player) every really had a problem with high attributes or stats that could not be mitigated by a good GM? I know the math behind the 6D STR blaster proof wookie, but I can tell you that actually playing a 7D STR esoomian was not a problem.

Add in armor, and that 7d can become easily 9d to resist blaster fire.. You'd need either paired E-webs firelinked, to challenge that guy, AND THAT level of firepower, is overly deadly to anyone else in a group..
So while it may NOT seem like you, have a problem, i can honestly say, YES it will be, to others.

Right. This may not be a problem for a solo campaign, but the thread ask is in general. It very likely will be a problem in a player group campaign.

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I have noticed a tendency that people assume the span of a couple dice in defence over attack damage makes the defender invulnerable... In Star Wars I have seen more times than I can remember a horrible defence roll with a lot of dice paired against a wonderful damage roll with fewer dice and a few 6's on wild dice.

No one is safe from damage. Less likely to get hurt, yes, but blaster-proof, no. That is decades on Star Wars and thousands of rolls for my support. However, as commercials say "individual results may vary". Aside from stats and odds...

Funny. You have "noticed a tendency" which is a statistical based observation, about others' observation of dice rolls. Yes, any character, no matter how strong, can still be wounded, but that is actually based on a very small and cherry-picked subset of damage resistance rolls out of all of them. The laws of probability, even with the wild die factored in, indicate that over the long run (considering all resistance rolls), a character with STR 7D will soak a lot more damage rolls than all characters with more usual STR stats. That is what "the blaster-proof Wookiee" phenomenon criticism is all about. It was never that they are literally blaster-proof. Arguing that it is not impossible for high STR characters to ever get wounded is a deflection from addressing the reality of the overall averages.

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
Aside from stats and odds, do you have experiences as a player or GM to share when a player with a high attribute worked well?

I expressed that I gave you the benefit of the doubt in the first post above, but some of your statements and questions in this thread are triggering my knee-jerk response to power gamers and munchkin characters. By your own words, you want to dismiss the statistics that support the main argument against "blaster-proof" Wookiees, which makes this sound like an apologist trojan horse for these characters.

Perhaps I should just bow out of this discussion, and only intervene when it inevitably gets heated and blows up.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope it doesn't blow out or get heated - that is not my intent at all. My intent was really to see if anyone else has had experiences (particularly good) with characters with some of the more extreme attributes and abilities. Thete is always a lot of talk about how things ate broken and I just have not noticed that on my end. An extra couple of dice is certainly a nice edge, but not broken in my own opinion and experiences. However, if you don't think this is a wise topic to discuss due to the potential for it to break down into chaos, we can cut it short. If we had the opportunity to play or GM for me, you would see that I am not a power gamers and play for story and theme over winning at all costs. I also like to test out rules at the extreme ends too, so that may have been the desire to create this character.

To answer one of your questions, yes, most NPCs do actually have the 6D above their base species attribute dice in my games. Only the lowest and most disposable NPCs have the base. That is just how my groups have typically played. Instead of a default of all Attributes are assumed to be 2D, I set the default at 3D.

One more factor I forgot to mention is the power of combined actions. Even the lowly blaster Pistol goes from 4D to 6D damage when four people coordinate a shot. If you use a blaster rifle that goes to 7D. As for my Esoomian, he was large enough that if he caused too much of a stir the locals would send out even more - 8 to 16 enforcers to get me in line. That kind of combined damage it very dangerous even with 7D Strength. Finally, based on the esomian's size, no armor of any kind was an option and frankly I did not even think about getting any...

I have seen powerful characters easily mitigated enough times I haven't personally seen this as a problem and MOST of the people I have played with over the years have not been power gamers. Those that were not only maxed stats, they also frequently cheater on dice rolls because it was never enough...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I did play this character solo, so problem fir others wasn't an issue. I was never faced with E-WEBs but I was in real danger plenty of times.


Then how can you really claim it was "balanced", or not a problem, if since you WERE solo, you never had to worry about any issues with other characters, potentially getting overshadowed...

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I did play this character solo, so problem fir others wasn't an issue. I was never faced with E-WEBs but I was in real danger plenty of times.

I have noticed a tendency that people assume the span of a couple dice in defence over attack damage makes the defender invulnerable. That is the type of thinking my friend's friend in California had - how his army was unbeatable. It was not. When I attacked him and won when ststistically I should not have (never telm me the odds!), he was mad that I even tried (and succeeded) because I should have known I was supposed to fail. I have several examples of this with other players too come to think of it. Power games tend to get mad when their calculated probabilities do not play out. To me, the fun is knowing "There's a chance!"


YES you may hav rare cases, where the dice go BAD for the high str/armor character, while the damage roll expands like crazy. BUT that's not to say that in GENERAL Someone who's Str/Armor roll averages HIGHER than the damage, even for those sporting light repeaters etc, can often see himself as invulnerable...

I have been in games, where i've seen someone who only had 3d, soaking the full damage of a light repeater, while the wookie, getting hit, seemed to always take a wound.
HOWEVER those are 'outliers'....

Whill wrote:
Yes, Star Wars power gamers will min-max attributes, which can be for humans or any species. But in my experience they are also fond of choosing species with game-breaking special abilities in RAW. Like species with +2D to all of one attribute's skill and attribute rolls (Verpine PCs are effectively 20D character in RAW). Or species with the PC creation rules of 2-for-1 in skill dice allocation, which variably multiple their skill dice.


YEa, a verpine can essentially start with the ability to toss almost 9d in any tech skill, all because of their bonuses, and other stuff... AS a starting character, to ME, that is just gross as heck.

Whill wrote:
Being a solo PC does eliminate the game balance aspect with other PCs, but I have ran solo campaigns before and in my experience it is is even more important for the PC to be a well balanced character, because they have no one else in their group to depend on for deficient skills. The solo campaigns I have ran in the past are sequel campaigns to group campaigns, so the PCs were built up well beyond beginning characters, with raised skills on every attribute.


Exactly. Imagine an adnd game with no thief, priest or mage.. THEY ARE a lot harder to slog through, because of those lack of 'skills'...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can claim it was balanced because my character couldn't do whatever he wanted, couldn't fight off dozens of squads of stormtroopers and come out of it without a scratch. Even though he was tough, he was still vulnerable to damage and to the law (or rival criminal elements). The GM never had any problem creating fun and challenging scenarios for the character. That was my experience, so that is how I can say it was balanced.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much of what I would say in response has been said time and again in so many similar threads, and also in this one by fellow pit dwellers. There are even posts by OP targeting some of the criticism that are well known to deflect or discredit them based on personal observation, so clearly the answers are well known and the problems are well known. While I have not role played in a very long time, regrettably, I did role play from around 1984 through 2007 in a variety of games and groups and environments, and seen all manner of power gaming, munchkinism, min-maxing, etc.. I have played a version of the D6 system almost since its inception at conventions or in home groups, and run Star Wars (mainly 1e with house rules and addendums from 2e and 2R&E and Metabarons, and D6 core) from somewhere in the 80's until 2007 (when my last gaming group was torn apart by infighting...real life not in game). I feel I can say with some weight and authority that Excessive High attributes are a problem and it is not relevent how good the GM is because by Mitigate you mean either GM jumping through hoops to address that one aspect (more work for GM) or GM especially targetting the weaker areas (something I always disliked). The math does not changed by perspective, and it has been hashed to death, 6D is essentially blaster proof in practical d^ as to have a good chance of damage you need to bring heavy weapons not commonly used in a firefight. The majority of personal weapons up to and including rifles cap out at 5D and these will most often not wound, and not even stun under 2R&E rules = blasterproof. When the GM is forced to bring in vehicle scale weapons and support weapons like repeaters to pose a threat to one character, it places any and all other players in the crossfire and makes things very un-fun for them after having to create their third and fourth character because the weapon hits are almost certainly fatal to them now. This of course means that either the players rely on this personal tank they have to be able to walk through combat, or combat gets over the top. The only fall back is a game focusing on non-combat which is hard to do with a Knowledge of 1D and likely low scores in other attributes as well.

Trying to counter with "I played solo" actually hurts the attempt to claim this was not a problem character.

I have in past, and still would, allow a Wookie to have max strength, but I am very selective on who I allow to play such a character as it can be unbalancing, and can very easily disrupt a whole group.

If you can find a copy of the Champions 3rd Edition rules, I suggest reading the chapter on Game and Character Balance and power gaming, I find it informative and hilarious the examples of min-maxing presented there.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
Much of what I would say in response has been said time and again in so many similar threads, and also in this one by fellow pit dwellers. There are even posts by OP targeting some of the criticism that are well known to deflect or discredit them based on personal observation, so clearly the answers are well known and the problems are well known.


Clearly I am not in the majority on my opinion and may even be a lone voice, which is fine, but could you explain this statement? I am not sure of your meaning. I am tracking when you write "There are even posts by OP targeting some of the criticism that are well known to..." and them I get lost from this point on. Would you please explain a different way perhaps?

I haven't gone through the thread to which you are referring and hadn't intended to rehash old dead topics from a few years ago. It seems this is a sour subject, so perhaps we can end it. But I do still want to understand KageRyu's comment, though.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I am tracking when you write "There are even posts by OP targeting some of the criticism that are well known to..." and them I get lost from this point on. Would you please explain a different way perhaps?

By OP I am refering to Original Poster or author of this thread. In several of your subsequent posts you address specific issues regarding high die codes and especially the "Blaster Proof Wookie" phenomenon with direct criticisms and points based on your observations or opinions to discredit or cast doubt on them being true - which I am pointing out suggests you are aware of the problems and nature of the "Blaster Proof Wookie" concept and debate. I did not mean to imply you had specifically gone to any old threads to dredge this up, so I am sorry if this is how it came across. The discussion of 6D+ Strength characters then stacked with armor or etc is a very, very old topic that has collectively come to be known as "the Blaster Proof Wookie" though it does not apply just to Wookies - Wookies were most commonly the species used in such discussions. These sorts of topics have come up in one form or another on almost every D6 or especially Star Wars D6 forum since almost the dawn of the internet. In fact, this was revisited time and again almost on a weekly basis on the old West End Game forums, even long after they lost the Star Wars License. Perhaps it has left some of the older SWD6 members here a bit jaded (I will definitely include myself, though I cannot speak for Whill I suspect maybe). I can say, fairly with 100% certainty, I have read and heard every possible variation, justification, and argument as to why it is not a problem and if it is it must be the Game Masters fault, and it is almost always by those who want to play that 6D+ Strength caracter with another 2D in Armor and reference graphs, charts, and Bell Curves showing that there is still a 0.00001% chance a 6D blaster might wound them and it being balanced (I know I am exaggerating the numbers a tad). I have also had players push to create such characters, and then try to bully the rest of the group through being the best and strongest fighter - it always ends badly in my experiences.

For me this, and a certain topic involving dark side points I will not bring up, are sour issues as they are a form of power gaming that tries to manipulate the games core mechanics.

It is not anything personal against you. I will concede I have power gamed myself. Sometimes it can be fun. If you have a GM and Group willing to allow it, and all players are on board for it, then great, have at it.

In any sort of D6 super or Cyberbrat type campaign 6D+ would be far less of an issue for me, due to the over the top nature of such a campaign.

I hope this helped explain my points of view better?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you KageRyu, that clears up your intent perfectly. Thanks for taking the extra time and effort to explain. I was not taking offense, but was also not privy to the full dark and belabored history of the topic. Though I have played this game for many years, I have not been involved in discussing it outside of my very small corner of gamers until joining the Pit a year ago.

Consider the topic dropped! Whill, can we put a lock on this turd and flush it?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
Thank you KageRyu, that clears up your intent perfectly. Thanks for taking the extra time and effort to explain. I was not taking offense, but was also not privy to the full dark and belabored history of the topic. Though I have played this game for many years, I have not been involved in discussing it outside of my very small corner of gamers until joining the Pit a year ago.

Consider the topic dropped! Whill, can we put a lock on this turd and flush it?
Smile

I see no issue in discussing the idea, even and especially if we elaborate on ways to handle such characters, when and how to allow them, types of games they would fit it. I just feel, as a general rule, it should be acknowledged any exceptionally high attribute can be balance and immersion breaking, especially when in groups. It rarely comes up or is discussed about the character with 5D+ Knowledge or 5D+ perception it seems, but those bring up issues all of their own. When setting up adventures, and the GM has to tailor challenges of a certain sort to characters with High stats, that means if other players need to attempt it they are more likely than not to fail. I have most often seen the discussion involving characters with high Strength die codes, then second most commonly Dexterity. I did, once, have a player want an Alien species that allowed up to 6D tech, and that immediately made me wonder what he was up to (never did really find out though, except he was always fixing things for the group).
As Whill has mentioned, I have often seen players try to exploit species that give double dice in certain skills, and such and then dump all their skill dice into those areas...
Do not be too hard on yourself, I am convinced now your intent was not to dredge up sore topics, but honest curiosity. Somewhere along the years I have just become a grumpy old man.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo, I get what you are saying. I have a buddy who has the classic (6D) Blaster-proof wookiee. It can be challenge but then any game can be a challenge. My buddy thinks that I don’t like his character, it more that I can’t seem to hit and if I do damage his character. My dice fail me! And its banter about it can be slightly irritating. I would like to point out though that you said that typically you use 3D instead 2D stats. That means your are mitigating some of the 7D character. And as mentioned Solo play can change some of the dynamics the game. But I too have statistic anomalies. Same friend different game system he had a mentalist (Super hero genre) and tried to Mind Control and the lowly agent rolled 3 ones on 3D6. Friend was annoyed because that shouldn’t have happen but well here you go. Another friend was mad cause every battle of W40k he would throw max amount of Orks against against one Space Marine and then my dice get hit and I’ll make Save after Save after After Save. And while I don’t doubt people when they say over the long run X or Y happens and maybe be broken, I know that I never get to play that long with any game so in the short term it isn’t a problem.
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