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Obi-Wan Kenobi [Spoilers Allowed]
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CommanderFocs
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:45 pm    Post subject: Kenobi Series Reply with quote

Overall I enjoyed the show but it wasn't anything super special or amazing. I think that all of the actors and actresses did a good job, especially the young Leia actress. I did find a few things about the show to be a bit weird and confusing though.

-The final Obi-Wan and Vader duel
I found the final duel between Vader and Obi-Wan very confusing and weird for Star Wars. It didn't feel like a Star Wars lightsaber duel to me.

-For starters, when Obi-Wan and Vader first start fighting, they somehow end up back-to-back with each other yet they both just continue swinging at each other while their backs are touching. I just found it very weird for a lightsaber duel.

-Later on in their duel, Vader kneels down, puts his hand on the ground, and then the ground just cracks in the direction of Obi-Wan and collapses beneath Obi-Wan's feet leaving Kenobi in a massive hole. In my opinion, this felt very anime for a Star Wars lightsaber duel.

-When Obi-Wan uses the force to throw the rocks off of himself, the camera zooms out and there is this massive explosion from the ground. This just makes this duel between Darth Vader and Obi-Wan Kenobi feel like it's from an anime or a superhero film, not Star Wars.

-I found this part to be the most ridiculous part of the entire final episode. When Obi-Wan lifts up his arms and all of these massive rocks start floating and then Obi-Wan starts launching these rocks at Vader. When I saw this I shouted out "That's so anime!" Once again, this makes me feel like this duel belongs better as an anime or a superhero film, not Star Wars. Why didn't Vader do anything? Vader could have stopped the rocks with the force, or launched them back at Obi-Wan. Instead, Vader just sat there and took every hit.

-Reva as a character
I wasn't a big fan of the character Reva. I think the actor did pretty good, but the character wasn't very enjoyable. I think that Reva was very all over the place or couldn't seem to stick to anything for very long. It felt like she was bad and then good and then back to bad and then good again. She never seemed to stay as an antagonist but wasn't really a protagonist either. Maybe this is just me, but I feel like Reva never stayed as one thing long enough to where you get to truly understand her enough to start liking her character.

I also think that there were some plot holes and other weird things about the series but Whill does a good job explaining and summarizing those few things.

--------------------

One thing I wish we would have gotten was some connection to Cal Kestis in the Kenobi series. Cal Kestis is the main character of the 2019 video game Jedi: Fallen Order. Fallen Order takes place 5 years after Revenge, but the upcoming sequel Jedi: Survivor takes place 10 years after Revenge, just like the Kenobi Series. Maybe it could have been hinted at or confirmed that Cal Kestis founded "the path" as Cal spends most of Fallen Order trying to find force sensitive children around the galaxy to train. If you haven't played Fallen Order I would definitely recommend it. I was a big fan of Fallen Order and I was hoping that in the final episode of Kenobi we would get some connection to Cal Kestis. I made a post about "5 similarities between episode 4 of the Kenobi series and Jedi: Fallen Order" on page 3.

--------------------

In conclusion, I wasn't a super huge fan of Kenobi but it also wasn't terrible. I would only recommend it to a big Star Wars fan or an enjoyer of Obi-Wan Kenobi or Inquisitors. It's definitely not for everybody. I would rate the series around a 6.5 or 7 out of 10.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Commander. I agree with a lot of that.

Darklighter79 wrote:
More lessons on the way....

For sure: rule of -1D per each levitated object once more proved to be in need of updating.

Why? Even if you viewed this show as canon equal to the classic trilogy and you feel that every single action viewed must be translatable to the game, what is deficient about the Telekinesis rules? Obi-Wan doesn't have any Force Points?
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
It remains firmly in the camp of "acceptable entertainment".

Contains a lot of utterly un-suspendable disbelief.

It had a lot of great little gems in it but overall it's somewhere above SOLO and below The Book of Boba Fett.


Honestly, I'd put OWK below Solo. Solo was unnecessary, but competently put together and didn't contradict anything.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThrorII wrote:
ThrorII wrote:
So, I've put off watching OB1K, due to my unhappiness with BOBF.

I finally sat down and watched episode 1 of OB1K last night. This is my thoughts ONLY on the 1st episode.

I thought it was pretty good. It captured Ben's depression and lack of hope. I heard a lot of complaints about 3rd Sister, but as of now, she's interesting. The Leia chase was cringy, making the kidnappers look childrens-show level incompetent. Owen was captured well, and you quickly get his dislike of Ben and totally understand why. I do find it funny that out of a million-million worlds, everyone ends up on Tatooine. It's like, hey Jedi, this planet is taken, move along....

We'll see how episodes 2 and 3 turn out.


OK, the family and I sat down and watched 2, 3, and 4 today. Here are our collective thoughts so far:

First, the show is good, not great. There are a lot of strange directorial or editorial, or story beat decisions being made. Episode 1 and 2 were both fairly strong. My kids did point out that little Leia runs like a toddler with a load in her diaper....

1. As of episode 2 onward, the 3rd Sister is coming off as a cartoon-level villain. Not believable or menacing at all. The fam really liked the Grand Inquisitor....until he was unceremoniously "killed".

2. The show has a problem of people and things appearing or disappearing as the plot needs it. In episode 2, Obi is in a gun fight with 2 bounty hunters on the roof top, then when Leia falls, they suddenly stop existing because the scene doesn't need them anymore.

3. The tunnel scene in part 3 (escaping the mining world) had all of us scratching our heads. Two people go in, one turns back, the 3rd Sis is at the entrance.....then all of a sudden, 3rd Sis is at the other end and Imp Officer didn't run in to her at the entrance.....Very poor scene set up and editing. I'm sure we can CREATE a scenario it works out, but we shouldn't have to.

3. A mole-man on a mining planet? What next a Bird-man on a sky planet? He didn't feel Star-Warsy, he felt comical.

4. There were a host of strange directorial and camera decisions in part 4. Obi Wan jumping to hide in plain sight of stormtroopers in an open hall way. Imp Officer gal (Talia?) talking on a mic right next to other officers. Talia taking out an officer 10 feet from everyone behind a wall of apparently sound proof computer panels. Talia's takedown of the 2 Stormtroopers by open hand slapping their helmets.......dang.....The Snow Speeder rescue looked weird, and your're telling me there are not TIE's on patrol, a "ready 1" TIE, or ANYTHING? NOT even radar????? Plus 3 rescued + 1 pilot in 1 Snow Speeder??? Heck Dak barely fit back there....

5. Did 3rd Sis really think a 10 year old who was exposed to the Jedi Underground Railroad just a day or so ago would have knowledge of the entire organization???? Why didn't Leia say she didn't know anything? Why didn't 3rd Sis actually INTERROGATE her, instead of asking the same vague question over and over (My wife leaned over and said, "She doesn't seem to know what she's doing..."). I could buy she's going to torture Leia to cause "force ripples" to draw Ben in (Like Vader did with Luke at Cloud City), but that is not stated or even hinted. It appears she was going to TORTURE a 10 year old child for information she logically wouldn't have.....

I will say, it is nowhere as bad as some are claiming, but it really feels like a first draft and in need of editing. I'd almost like to see a good Fan Edit of it. The Obi-Vader scenes are real good. I don't like the Neon Bright Light Sabers that they are using now.


We watched episodes 5 and 6 last night....

Wow.....what a mess....

Ep 5:
1. Vader is the kindest Sith boss ever....and 3rd Sister must have abs of steel to tank TWO lightsabers to the gut in 10 years.

2. Vader vs. 3rd Sister was visually satisfying, and we all thought (and hoped) Vader was going to "Count Dooku" 3rd Sister.

3. They tried to make 3rd Sister sympathetic, but after de-handing an old woman, killing Jedi, killing Force Sensitive children and families, etc., and being willing to torture 10-year old girls, how can you have sympathy????

4. Did Kenobi promise to help 3rd Sis, then double crossed her????

5. Leia is now a 10-year old engineering genius????

6. Ice T Jr. told Kenobi they couldn't leave until everyone was safe, but they apparently had TWO ships, and at least one had a shuttle with hyperdrive....

7. Vader was way too OP - taking down a ship and parting it out.

8. Bail sucks at coded messages....("Hey Obi, I'm going to check on Darth Vader's secret son, LUKE, who lives on Tatooine with Owen").

Episode 6:
1. I guess everyone but Qui Gon can walk off a lightsaber to the gut.

2. How did 3rd Sis get to Tatooine??? Did vader leave her ship with her as part of a severance package???

3. That freighter has Millenium Falcon level plot armor!!!!???!!!

4. I still don't like the new lightsabers. Too much glow.

5. Vader vs. OWK was emotionally powerful and the saber fighting was good.

6. Vader vs. OWK Force Combat was WAAAYYYY OP!!!! Like Anime level.

7. So Luke only survives because 3rd Sis had a last minute change of heart???? So OWK failed at his one job post RotS????

8. Why did 3rd Sis want to kill Luke??? She didn't know he was Anakin's kid (I don't think....), she isn't an inquisitor any more......

9. As good as the emotional hit was at the end of Vader vs. OWK, by writing it so Obi chooses not to kill Vader, it ruins Kenobi's personality.

Obi won't kill Vader when he has the chance, but has no qualms about lying to Luke to convince him to kill his father. Also, now, ever Vader murder (including Alderaan, 2nd hand) is on Ben's hands.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is important to know that the premise for MOST Star Wars projects is NOT LORE OR CANON, but how to insert various "of those things", and this is what we get
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Thanks, Commander. I agree with a lot of that.

Darklighter79 wrote:
More lessons on the way....

For sure: rule of -1D per each levitated object once more proved to be in need of updating.

Why? Even if you viewed this show as canon equal to the classic trilogy and you feel that every single action viewed must be translatable to the game, what is deficient about the Telekinesis rules? Obi-Wan doesn't have any Force Points?


The rule is flawed in this way as it allows to lift a starfighter but not 25 sabbacc cards.*
*I do not mean multi-directional separate move trajectories, I mean area mass telekinesis.

so:




These are not -10D by a long shot. Nor FP situation.
Rule needs some small updates not rewriting.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotcha.

ThrorII wrote:
I'd put OWK below Solo. Solo was unnecessary, but competently put together and didn't contradict anything.

Solo was much better than OWK. Some would say Maul contradicts his apparent death in TPM, but other than that Solo syncs with film canon well.

ThrorII wrote:
We watched episodes 5 and 6 last night....

Wow.....what a mess....

Ep 5:
1. Vader is the kindest Sith boss ever....and 3rd Sister must have abs of steel to tank TWO lightsabers to the gut in 10 years.

I guess.

Quote:
3. They tried to make 3rd Sister sympathetic, but after de-handing an old woman, killing Jedi, killing Force Sensitive children and families, etc., and being willing to torture 10-year old girls, how can you have sympathy????

Did they try to make her sympathetic? It's hard for me to tell because I felt no sympathy for her.

I can say that in the CT, they did not try to make Vader sympathetic. It was a total surprise that he turned good and saved Luke in RotJ. In the PT, Anakin is sympathetic until the moment he cut off Mace Windu's lightsaber hand. The tragedy felt is really for everyone else: Padme, Obi-Wan, the Jedi, the Republic. RotS conveys that everything that happened to Anakin was totally deserved.

Quote:
4. Did Kenobi promise to help 3rd Sis, then double crossed her????

Yes, as I commented on the previous page. Pretty clever of him, pretty stupid of Reva to fall for it.

Quote:
5. Leia is now a 10-year old engineering genius????

She is an exceptional child but I wouldn't really say technical genius. She was the only one that could access the job, and it took her a long time to accomplish it.

Quote:
6. Ice T Jr. told Kenobi they couldn't leave until everyone was safe, but they apparently had TWO ships, and at least one had a shuttle with hyperdrive....

Ice Cube Jr., actually. Ice T is an unrelated rapper and Law & Order actor...

Quote:
7. Vader was way too OP - taking down a ship and parting it out.

Yes, they had two ships. A decoy ship that Vader could go all 'Force Unleashed' and tire himself out on, and the real ship with the shuttle that escaped. Then somehow Vader gets up to his star destroyer super quickly and his star destroyer pursues the escaping ship at the same speed.

Quote:
8. Bail sucks at coded messages....("Hey Obi, I'm going to check on Darth Vader's secret son, LUKE, who lives on Tatooine with Owen").

To be fair, it wasn't quite that explicit. It referred to the "children" being protected from Vader, "Owen" and a "boy" on Tatooine. But yeah, a major plot point message. See #8 below.

Quote:
Episode 6:

2. How did 3rd Sis get to Tatooine??? Did vader leave her ship with her as part of a severance package???

She flew on her ship, The Plot Contrivance.

Quote:
3. That freighter has Millenium Falcon level plot armor!!!!???!!!

It survived so many hits for so long that it has even superior armor, 42D level plot armor.

Quote:
4. I still don't like the new lightsabers. Too much glow.

Blame Abrams. He introduced actually-glowing lightsaber props to get the blue and red lighting on Kylo Ben's and Rey's faces in TFA.

Quote:
5. Vader vs. OWK was emotionally powerful and the saber fighting was good.

I wasn't expecting a RotS-level lightsaber duel, but I was still expecting a bit more, so I was disappointed.

Quote:
6. Vader vs. OWK Force Combat was WAAAYYYY OP!!!! Like Anime level.

That's what CommanderFocs said in a post above. I have almost zero experience with anime so I'll take your words for it. I can say I thought it was a bit silly.

Quote:
7. So Luke only survives because 3rd Sis had a last minute change of heart???? So OWK failed at his one job post RotS????

I guess.

Quote:
8. Why did 3rd Sis want to kill Luke??? She didn't know he was Anakin's kid (I don't think....), she isn't an inquisitor any more......

Yeah, I don't really understand what Reva's motivation was at that point. Why did she want to kill Luke? To get revenge on Obi-Wan because he was protecting Luke? Did she somehow divine that Luke and Leia were Anakin's children being hidden from him so she wanted to kill them before Vader could get to them, to get revenge on Vader? Why was she sad and thought she was a failure that she couldn't go through with killing Luke?

Quote:
9. As good as the emotional hit was at the end of Vader vs. OWK, by writing it so Obi chooses not to kill Vader, it ruins Kenobi's personality.

Obi won't kill Vader when he has the chance, but has no qualms about lying to Luke to convince him to kill his father. Also, now, ever Vader murder (including Alderaan, 2nd hand) is on Ben's hands.

Yes. That's what I was getting at on the previous page.
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This back to back in Vader vs Kenobi and hands up while telekinesis was Revenge of the Sith revisiting. Rather unnecessary.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finished Kenobi.
Overall really happy with it.

Sure, lots of little plot holes here and there - but then again, enough good stuff for them to not distract me enough and break immersion into story.

Not at all what I was hoping for, or expected - but what I really liked.



On Mechanics and Story
Too often we as gamers get hung up on details - as long as we a have consistent enough mechanics for predictibility and game balance - the story should be the primary factor.

Sometimes the number of objects in telekinesis matter - sometimes it does not.

Example; when it matters -
GM: There are two troopers on the ledge.
Player: I want to grab them both, and hurl them off the building
GM: Since there are two of them, you will need to make two checks..
Player: ok, that is two actions then...
(player rolls dice and is successful)..
GM: "Reaching out with the force you hurl the two surprised troopers off the ledge ....."


Example when it does not matter;

Player: I can manage about a speeder's worth for telekinesis.
GM: sure, that is 3D speeder scale damage and a Difficult check.
Player: Ok, I will do that. Are there enough rocks for that?
GM: Not any big ones, but enough for a speeder scale attack....
Player: Makes roll...."got it!"
GM: "A storm of rocks streak through the air in a maelstrom of rubble, dirt and debris - buffeting your target ...."

rules wise, he wanted to use tk to do X Damage - and made it.
Fluffy wise, how the scene looked - does not matter - enjoy the narrative and the story.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was it just me or did anyone else have a huge problem with how poorly that launch of the Hyperdrive capable shuttle looked (and it looked far too large to fit inside that freighter and still allow passengers, engines, and armaments on the freighter... unless maybe if was from Galifrey drive yards)?

I was also very disturbed that, even though Vader went to face Kennobi alone, when the fight ends and Kennobi leaves the planet in his shuttle, the Stard Destroyer is no where in sight. Did it just Abandon Vader? Was the crew all like "He's a jerk and keeps strangling us, let's ditch him."?

Also... why didn't Vader choke anyone?

Most of the other issues I have were already mentioned by various people. I really wanted to like this series, but I can't. I found too many problems and too much poor writing in it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:59 am    Post subject: OWK scoring Reply with quote

Obi-Wan vs Vader rescored with Battle of the Heroes and other Williams music

This would have been a step in the right direction. I do not at all agree with the choice to use very little Williams in the scoring of this show.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ll post my thoughts in bullet format.
-Lightsaber battle was AWESOME!
-Vader destroying the ship AWESOME!
-Reva surviving and going to Tatooine? I thought her ark should’ve let her die.
(I just feel that ark has been done to *ahem* death. However other fans maybe haven't seen it done so much so not THAT bad.
-I still never like the Qui-gonn knowing how to be a Force Ghost so him coming back wasn’t a big deal for me.
(Because of that scene my son went and rewatched Phantom Menace).

Overall enjoyable.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you enjoyed it. I enjoyed some aspects of it, but likely not as much as you.

Ninja-Bear wrote:
I still never like the Qui-gonn knowing how to be a Force Ghost so him coming back wasn’t a big deal for me.
(Because of that scene my son went and rewatched Phantom Menace).

Qui-Gon having been discussed in dialogue at the end of RotS as having discovered a way to survive physical death and finally making contact with Yoda served a few purposes for Lucas. It tied TPM in with RotS more. It explained how Vader had no knowledge of the power to become a Force ghost in ANH – If Yoda didn't know of this power before that point, than very few (if any other than Qui-Gon) had discovered this non-Jedi Force power. And in a film with wave after wave of worsening tragedy, it being revealed at the end gives hope when it is dramatically needed, when the two surviving Jedi Masters decide to put all their hope in the next generation of Skywalkers. It is a counterpoint to a couple things Palpatine said earlier in the film (Plagueis couldn't save himself, and Palpatine was looking forward to developing the ability to 'cheat death' revealing he hasn't found it yet). And, by Qui-Gon's death being tied into the drama of RotS, the ability for Jedi to survive death in the CT ties Qui-Gon and therefore his faith in the prophecy of the chosen one into the CT more. Thus drawing another line from 1 to 6, strengthening Lucas' expansion of the original trilogy story into a deeper two-trilogy story. I find it fairly effective.

I guess you would have liked it better if Yoda had just discovered the power along the way on his own and then trained Obi-Wan on the power before they separated in RotS. IMO that wouldn't have worked quite as well as what we got, but YMMV.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:22 pm    Post subject: OWK Score Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Kenobi Composer Explains the Lack of Imperial March in the Series

Quote:
"When I started up on this project, we weren't sure that we were going to be allowed to use the John Williams themes," Holt said. "Deborah [Chow, OWK Director] was saying to me, 'I think we need to score the show as if we're not going to be able to use them.'She was like, "I don't want to find out that we can't, so let's make it work without. Let's do our own thing.'"

She continued, "And she was saying, 'Actually, if we were going to use the Vader theme, I don't think we should use it until episode six, because he's still half Anakin, half Vader at this point. When his mask cracks open at the end, and he says 'You didn't kill Anakin Skywalker. I did,' you realize now he's Vader, now he's earned his 'Imperial March'.

There is so much wrong about this:
    (1) If the director didn't know if they will be "allowed" to use Williams filmic musical themes, then the director urgently needs to find out before the composer starts scoring the film. The plan to assume they won't be able to find out is just plain lazy.
    (2) The director should really dictate the needs of the series instead of wait or ask for approval from on high.
    (3) They act like it's an oversimplification of all or nothing. There is a happy medium between none and a lot. It's called, a little. I agree that the series shouldn't be oversaturated with film themes in the scoring. But it should have referred to the themes more frequently, even if just briefly. Then weave the new themes and scoring around them so it sounds organic. Rogue One and Solo both did this successfully. The Force theme in particular was used way too little in the OWK series – The Force theme IS Obi-Wan's original theme!
    (4) The bit about Anakin/Vader doesn't make any sense. Vader not 'earning' his Imperial March until the end of the series might be more believable if it hadn't appeared a lot in RotS, most of which in scenes with Vader. There is an extremely appropriate appearance of Imperial March with swelling orchestration in Vader's final appearance in RotS. It was earned. OWK is 10 years later.
    (5) Vader was not still "half-Anakin" at any time in OWK. Vader can be dynamic and evolve over time, sure, but he was always Vader in this series. What the series made the point of showing is that Obi-Wan realizing he wasn't responsible for killing Anakin, Vader had (past tense) killed Anakin. That actually jives with Lucas' character arc structure for Anakin/Vader – he spent half his life in each identity. Vader was 10 years into being Vader by the time of this series. This quote from the composer makes me wonder if she or the director ever fully had a grip on that.
    (6) Anakin has a musical theme too. If Vader really had been "half-Anakin", why didn't they play Anakin's Theme at all in this series? "Half-Anakin" just makes no sense.
I'm getting a strong TFA vibe from the quotes. They make it seem like this show is more of a reboot exploring the same themes as the works it is rebooting, and like TFA it only vaguely fits within the same continuity. This is disappointing. At least TFA used a lot of existing Williams themes. I recently read that the project that eventually became this Obi-Wan Kenobi series started development a movie. That likely would have had a different director and composer. It might have turned out better.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill.... regarding...

Quote:
If the director didn't know if they will be "allowed" to use Williams filmic musical themes.....


Just to let you know, as someone who has some fringe experience in filmmaking and other experience in productions dealing with various IP and licensed works - this is absolutely believable to me.

I doubt this was a "lets ask a someone for their subjective feeling allow" vs. "we don't know yet from legal if we can use the specific pieces of music for this specific streaming production at this time".

The licensing of works can get quite sticky and complex at times - and depending on arrangements - even timing, or media type - and even believe it or not - the methods a commercial work is charged to the public - can impact how a work can be used. (had one project almost not happen because an work was going to be part of a general admission and not a pre-paid per seat venue - it changed all the paperwork and permissions).

Sometimes due to timelines, legal delays and other issues - this is NOT known before production begins.

Also regarding the director "dictate" - some productions the director has a lot of control - other times, not. (this is why many actors also get into producing, writing and directing - more control). Not every director is the central figure in a production - there are a lot of variables, personality, contracts and egos involved at times.

Not arguing here - just giving some additional insight as someone with experience in dealing with IP and productions.

I do agree however, with some of the other comments regarding how and when should be used etc.
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