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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | Well, CRFG says that pocket computers have a max total memory capacity of up to 5D while portable computers have a max of 20D. Capital ships go up to 30D.
Think of the file die codes as dice codes of knowledge specialty skills. Tweak the limits how you see fit. Like Charles said, there really isn't any need to "translate" those die codes into real world terms. |
Considering CFRG was a 1E product, predating a lot of 2E/R&E concepts like Specializations, as well as changes in the Coordination rules, it might be worth an update.
One thing that comes to mind is the the x2 = +1D Rule, and whether or not it would be applicable to data storage. Per CRFG, a 10D Data Storage System can be split into, say, two 4D files and a 2D file. But if one were to apply the x2 = +1D method, it could be split into two 9D files, four 8D files, eight 7D files, sixteen 6D files, and so on.
It might also be worthwhile to treat each data file as a droid of sorts, with 0D in all Attributes, and Skill Dice in a single Knowledge Skill Specialization.
There is also precedent in CRFG for expensive computers that provide bonuses to the user's Computer Programming rolls, so I can see Ten-20-Three's Mainframe stat as an expression of that.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | That fits, too. I'd say anything software related (including repair of software-specific hardware like chips or other CPU components) would be under Computer/Droid Programming, while anything involving repair of droid bodies be under Droid/Cyborg Repair (as there is significant technological overlap between droids and cybernetic parts). |
I can see why you's go for those skill groupings. There definitely would be some overlap between droid and cybernetic parts, especially for the repairing the mechanical aspects of humanoid limbs, since so many species and droids are humanoid. But most "cyborgs" aren't mostly machine like Grievous or even Vader. Most are instead mostly organic with some cybernetic implants or body parts. So as a whole there would also be some significant differences between droids and cybernetics, like the artificial organs that droids do not need, cybernetic programing, and bio-integration.
What it boils down to in my mind is what the skills do for character expertise. I personally don't want experts in droid technology to automatically be experts in cybernetics, and vice versa. Droid technology is ubiquitous but skill with cybernetics is much more niche. Anyone who have ever owned a droid may have skill with droids. For the most part, the characters I see as having the cybernetics skill are medical professionals, cybernetic repair professionals, characters with their own cybernetics, and characters who live with or care for those with cybernetics. On the other hand, I am ok for someone who is an expert at repairing (and programing) droids to also be an expert at repairing (and programing) computers, since droids are just computers who are more advanced in programming and physical capabilities.
I sometimes deal with cases of overlap by way of "Skill Synergy." If a character is using a skill and has a higher valued skill with an area of knowledge/ability that is relevant to the lower skill, then I will give the character a bonus, such as one pip for every die of difference. If a droid specialist has to repair a cybernetic leg that is similar to droid legs, then they may get the synergy bonus to their cybernetics skill (or attribute) roll. (I need to add the Skill Synergy rule to my Skills post).
| garhkal wrote: | | I really wish that whole "D" of data, crakens came up with, got expanded on.. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | Well, CRFG says that pocket computers have a max total memory capacity of up to 5D while portable computers have a max of 20D. Capital ships go up to 30D.
Think of the file die codes as dice codes of knowledge specialty skills. Tweak the limits how you see fit. Like Charles said, there really isn't any need to "translate" those die codes into real world terms. |
Considering CFRG was a 1E product, predating a lot of 2E/R&E concepts like Specializations, as well as changes in the Coordination rules, it might be worth an update. |
For sure.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | It might also be worthwhile to treat each data file as a droid of sorts, with 0D in all Attributes, and Skill Dice in a single Knowledge Skill Specialization. |
Exactly!
| garhkal wrote: | | And yea, a suit giving potentially 5d+2 BONUS to computer programming, without even having to be NEAR the computer, is way up there... |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | There is also precedent in CRFG for expensive computers that provide bonuses to the user's Computer Programming rolls, so I can see Ten-20-Three's Mainframe stat as an expression of that. |
Sure, but I'm with garhkal on this that 5D+2 is too much of a bonus.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | So as a whole there would also be some significant differences between droids and cybernetics, like the artificial organs that droids do not need, cybernetic programing, and bio-integration. |
Agreed. I would put the actual implantation and integration under the Medicine skill (either as a Cybernetics Specialization or as an Advanced Skill with Medicine and Droid/Cyborg Repair as Prerequisites), but the actual inner workings of the part itself would be Droid/Cyborg Repair.
| Quote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | There is also precedent in CRFG for expensive computers that provide bonuses to the user's Computer Programming rolls, so I can see Ten-20-Three's Mainframe stat as an expression of that. |
Sure, but I'm with garhkal on this that 5D+2 is too much of a bonus. |
Oh, definitely, but I already made that point earlier, and decided not to belabor it without giving Ten-20-Three a chance to rebut. I was speaking generally in the sense that a device the provided a bonus was appropriate.
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Ten-20-Three
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Location: Poland
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for all your feedback and the discussion.
It seems I have overdone it.
So i would stay with following stats:
+2D bonus to computer programming
+2D+2 security when re-routing any security or similar programming so that a break cannot be detected
+1D Communication using data-link
+1D to physical
+1D to energy
I would like to have some feature which would allow technician to be more mobile and connect to computer systems remotely.
I have the following idea. Technician needs to set connection with every computer terminal in the area where his/her team plans to operate. To do that technician needs to plug into computer terminals small devices (similar to Mocrothrust Computer Spike from CRFG) which send and receive information on distance - it might be 100 m max. The area needs to be densly covered with such send/receive devices, so technician can stay connected. Of course if anyone takes the device from computer terminal then the connection is broken. That would mean the technician has to prepare the opreration area in advance, which not always will be possible. So it might be that technician will have to stay around one computer terminal in range of 100 m.
What do you think?
Still I would like to refer to couple of comments.
| Quote: | | The problem I have here is that non-combat industrial accidents happen, too, so this suit is going to become wildly unpopular to the potential wearers if it quadruples (which is essentially what a -2D modifier is) the chance of taking damage if, say, the electrical main you're working on happens to blow it. This is the sort of gimmick that gets revealed as a major design flaw and is phased out in the subsequent redesign (usually accompanied by a mass recall and lawsuits for wrongful death), with the power cells being moved to a backpack mounted unit or something less hazardous to the wearer. |
All that you wrote is absolutely true, but it is set in some cultural context. In real life, countries that are totalitarian, that are led by dictators, where political needs take over safety, and where life has no value, design flaws are often ignored because there is the political demand for success. That is how Chernobyl disaster happened.
Major design flaw – yes,
known to designers – yes, well in advance,
redesigned – no, due to economic and political reasons,
phased out – not at all,
mass lawsuits – no, not even a chance to do that without being treated as an enemy of the state.
Back to the game. If you start to think about NeuroSaav, which competed for major military contracts with well established corporations, you may imagine that drive to introduce cutting edge solution.
NeuroSaav might had decided that the product served its marketing purpose and did not invest in it any longer, so no upgraded version.
The poor design is something often visible in SW universe. Many of droids in Cynabar’s Fantastic Technology Droid have major flaws. I agree that in general, if the design is poor, things will be redesigned and improved. But the fact that the suit has flaws and limitations makes it interesting, as there is an option to customize it and utilize Technical skills. The same way as is suggested in CRFG for TerexComm DataSearch 9C which destroys data it searches if you do not change power condenser (p.93).
Once again reference to current technology and major design flaws, have a look at hybrid engines, what happens when batteries start to burn, how difficult it is to put out the fire? Even though it is known issue no company has invented yet better and safer batteries. They did not even find an effective way to extinguish burning batteries. And still they sell electric cars as great and completly safe technology. It might be just a question of time when industry resolves the problem or it might be after all a limitation of this technology. Recently hybrid cars caused or at least intensified fire onboard car carrier "Felicity Ace" which finally sunk.
| Quote: | | And frankly, a wearable device that provides a +5D bonus to Computer Programming / Repair is pretty over-the-top. |
As CRMcNeill pointed out the portable computer bonus 5D6 is granted in CRFG, so it exist already in the game. Normally you need to carry the computer unit in your hands or backpack. The suit has it integrated - not a gamechanger yet - technician carries it attached to his body instead of backpack. The big novelty is that the connection is now remote. I have found today that in Dark Empire Sourcebook a technician carries “datapad with remote link into central computer” (page. 40). In such a case it only requires to connect portable computer with datapad equipped with remote link to access central computer. However, the Dark Empire Sourcebook is a kind of Star Wars universe "what if" twist with world devastators.
To balance bonuses of the suit I have added initial requirement to have 5D computer programming to use the suit and the additional 2D damage, which is a risk technician has to take until it is customized by some specialist.
| Quote: | | My thinking is that your mainframe/memory combo is better set up like a wearable miniature droid, something along the lines of Blue Max in the Han Solo Trilogy. That way, you can assign it tasks to perform independent of the wearer (thus offsetting MAP penalties), along with a selection of tools that provide bonuses that are usable by either the droid personality or the wearer. |
The concept of having a droid integrated with the suit is a great idea, but the intention was to utilize the skills of technician to give him something more than being just a supporting character.
Finally, as it goes to datafile D rating. It is also used in cartridges for knowledge and technical skills. You can get 3D, 5D, 6D cartridges which replace user's skill.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | ...So as a whole there would also be some significant differences between droids and cybernetics, like the artificial organs that droids do not need, cybernetic programing, and bio-integration... |
Agreed. I would put the actual implantation and integration under the Medicine skill (either as a Cybernetics Specialization or as an Advanced Skill with Medicine and Droid/Cyborg Repair as Prerequisites), but the actual inner workings of the part itself would be Droid/Cyborg Repair. |
R&E RAW already has the specialization (A) medicine: cyborging, and I'm ok with that. I agree that the medical aspects of cybernetics would be handled by (A) medicine, which of course being advanced, most characters don't have.
I have a young cousin who had to have her left leg amputated below her knee as a result of a car accident. She has no medical training, but just having a prosthetic and going through physical therapy she knew a lot more about them then most people ever will. She now works for a prosthetics company as a patient advocate.
Cybernetics in the Star Wars version of prosthetics. I felt there should a non-advanced skill for cybernetics for the non-medical characters I listed in my previous post who would have it. For the reasons I gave in that post, I wanted this non-advanced cybernetics skill to be separate from droid tech. My Skill Synergy rule addresses the overlap situations.
| Ten-20-Three wrote: | It seems I have overdone it.
So i would stay with following stats:
+2D bonus to computer programming
+2D+2 security when re-routing any security or similar programming so that a break cannot be detected
+1D Communication using data-link
+1D to physical
+1D to energy
I would like to have some feature which would allow technician to be more mobile and connect to computer systems remotely.
I have the following idea. Technician needs to set connection with every computer terminal in the area where his/her team plans to operate. To do that technician needs to plug into computer terminals small devices (similar to Mocrothrust Computer Spike from CRFG) which send and receive information on distance - it might be 100 m max. The area needs to be densly covered with such send/receive devices, so technician can stay connected. Of course if anyone takes the device from computer terminal then the connection is broken. That would mean the technician has to prepare the opreration area in advance, which not always will be possible. So it might be that technician will have to stay around one computer terminal in range of 100 m.
What do you think?... |
That's certainly better. I really love the concept of Shards but I struggle with the ability they have to communicate with computers and droids remotely being too OP for PCs.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Sure, but I'm with garhkal on this that 5D+2 is too much of a bonus. |
Oh, definitely, but I already made that point earlier, and decided not to belabor it without giving Ten-20-Three a chance to rebut. I was speaking generally in the sense that a device the provided a bonus was appropriate. |
I'm thinking that in general, what would be better than just having some computers give a bonus to programming rolls would to move the standard down a bit and shrink the range scale, so some give a small penalty and some give a small bonus. Maybe minimum portable computers are -1, datapads are -2, and pocket computers are -1D. Then have more robust portable computers that are 0D or give a small bonus, and go up in pips from there...
| Ten-20-Three wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | And frankly, a wearable device that provides a +5D bonus to Computer Programming / Repair is pretty over-the-top. |
As CRMcNeill pointed out the portable computer bonus 5D6 is granted in CRFG, so it exist already in the game. Normally you need to carry the computer unit in your hands or backpack. The suit has it integrated - not a gamechanger yet - technician carries it attached to his body instead of backpack. The big novelty is that the connection is now remote. |
Right. (1) That bonus being built-in to the suit is a major advantage and the bonus shouldn't be as powerful as the bonus you can get from carrying around an expensive portable computer. (2) RAW is inconsistent in quality, so sometimes published authors get it wrong and +5D may be too high a bonus to for characters to get from a computer in the first place. Just saying.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | She has no medical training, but just having a prosthetic and going through physical therapy she knew a lot more about them then most people ever will. |
If I were making her an NPC, I'd probably give her an extra +2 or +1D in Droid/Cyborg Repair to represent her familiarity with the devices and allow her to make basic diagnostics based on familiarity. It could also be an aspect of the Know-How skill if one were to port that over from D6 Space.
| Quote: | | Ten-20-Three wrote: | | I have the following idea. |
That's certainly better. |
I would suggest that, in general, limited wireless links are allowed, but that the connection and authentication process is extremely robust, basically two separate AI programs exchanging digital handshakes to establish a link, and that hacking in wirelessly is vastly more difficult without specialized equipment. This allows for localized wireless connections like Lobot's connection to the central computer of Cloud City, but without making wireless connection anything close to what we have now. As such, it's easier to use a MicroThrust or similar device to make a physical connection, essentially bypassing the wireless network via a hardware connection that's part of your own, separate wireless network.
Of course, high security facilities could be set up to detect unauthorized wireless networks (such as might exist between a character's PD and their MicroThrust), so the character would need to use a cabled connection, or an astromech or similar droid that can make a physical connection.
| Quote: | | I really love the concept of Shards but I struggle with the ability they have to communicate with computers and droids remotely being too OP for PCs. |
The Hyperspace Marauder on pg. 104 of the Dark Empire Sourcebook has a custom-made multi-band computer interface antenna that grants a +3D bonus to Computer Programming and Security rolls when attempting to take over an opponent's shipboard computer. It's relatively short-ranged (only 500 meters on a starship-mounted system), but definitely powerful and capable.
Perhaps a Shard could effectively be a naturally occurring version of a multi-band computer interface antenna, as in, able to attempt wireless access without any wireless device, just without the +3D bonus, solely on their own Computer Programming skill dice
| Quote: | | Ten-20-Three wrote: | | As CRMcNeill pointed out the portable computer bonus 5D6 is granted in CRFG, so it exist already in the game. Normally you need to carry the computer unit in your hands or backpack. The suit has it integrated - not a gamechanger yet - technician carries it attached to his body instead of backpack. The big novelty is that the connection is now remote. |
Right. (1) That bonus being built-in to the suit is a major advantage and the bonus shouldn't be as powerful as the bonus you can get from carrying around an expensive portable computer. (2) RAW is inconsistent in quality, so sometimes published authors get it wrong and +5D may be too high a bonus to for characters to get from a computer in the first place. Just saying. |
For context, a 5D unit stacked with a character with 5D in Computer Programming (for a total of 10D) has a fair chance of beating a Heroic Difficulty roll on a regular basis (because of the way the dice bell curve works, a 30+ on 10D is a very likely result). WEG describes Heroic Difficulty on Computer Programming thusly: "Information that only a select few individuals would know. The location of all of Emperor Palpatine's secret weapons vaults." Now, I tend to think WEG oversimplified their Computer Programming rules, but it's not outside the realm of possibility for a starting character to have 4D in Tech, then put 1D in Computer Programming, and if they can get access to one of these suits, they can access the most heavily encrypted and secure data in the galaxy on a regular basis. Illicit access on that level shouldn't just be readily accessible because you found the right piece of tech.
All in all, I'd say that Computer Programming and the Data / Hacking rules from CRFG are in dire need of a re-write.
| Whill wrote: | | I'm thinking that in general, what would be better than just having some computers give a bonus to programming rolls would to move the standard down a bit and shrink the range scale, so some give a small penalty and some give a small bonus. Maybe minimum portable computers are -1, datapads are -2, and pocket computers are -1D. Then have more robust portable computers that are 0D or give a small bonus, and go up in pips from there... |
That sounds more like it; make computer programming much more dependent on the skill level of the character, not the hardware they're using. I can still see room for +5D stuff, but that would be more the area of a dedicated mainframe in a surface installation or major capital ship, and then only if you have the proper access codes.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14031
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Ten-20-Three wrote: | Thank you for all your feedback and the discussion.
It seems I have overdone it.
So i would stay with following stats:
+2D bonus to computer programming
+2D+2 security when re-routing any security or similar programming so that a break cannot be detected
+1D Communication using data-link
+1D to physical
+1D to energy |
Those seem much more reasonable..
| Ten-20-Three wrote: | I would like to have some feature which would allow technician to be more mobile and connect to computer systems remotely.
I have the following idea. Technician needs to set connection with every computer terminal in the area where his/her team plans to operate. To do that technician needs to plug into computer terminals small devices (similar to Mocrothrust Computer Spike from CRFG) which send and receive information on distance - it might be 100 m max. The area needs to be densly covered with such send/receive devices, so technician can stay connected. Of course if anyone takes the device from computer terminal then the connection is broken. That would mean the technician has to prepare the opreration area in advance, which not always will be possible. So it might be that technician will have to stay around one computer terminal in range of 100 m.
What do you think? |
Sounds good.. I could even see the "Distance" being a function of how well he did on a Communications roll, setting up each of those devices..
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I would suggest that, in general, limited wireless links are allowed, but that the connection and authentication process is extremely robust, basically two separate AI programs exchanging digital handshakes to establish a link, and that hacking in wirelessly is vastly more difficult without specialized equipment. This allows for localized wireless connections like Lobot's connection to the central computer of Cloud City, but without making wireless connection anything close to what we have now. As such, it's easier to use a MicroThrust or similar device to make a physical connection, essentially bypassing the wireless network via a hardware connection that's part of your own, separate wireless network. |
So how's about you first, HAVE to make the physical connection, THEN once done you can set up the wifi router like device, to then continue to operate at range?
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | For context, a 5D unit stacked with a character with 5D in Computer Programming (for a total of 10D) has a fair chance of beating a Heroic Difficulty roll on a regular basis (because of the way the dice bell curve works, a 30+ on 10D is a very likely result). WEG describes Heroic Difficulty on Computer Programming thusly: "Information that only a select few individuals would know. The location of all of Emperor Palpatine's secret weapons vaults." Now, I tend to think WEG oversimplified their Computer Programming rules, but it's not outside the realm of possibility for a starting character to have 4D in Tech, then put 1D in Computer Programming, and if they can get access to one of these suits, they can access the most heavily encrypted and secure data in the galaxy on a regular basis. Illicit access on that level shouldn't just be readily accessible because you found the right piece of tech. |
With these suits being 90+ THOUSAND, i can't see a starting character ever getting their hands on one... AND their use, let alone wear, be so retstricted, good luck getting around in one, to USE it that often..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So how's about you first, HAVE to make the physical connection, THEN once done you can set up the wifi router like device, to then continue to operate at range? |
I like it, but there'd need to be a work-around to allow for specialized wireless connection devices like the multi-band interface antenna on the Hyperspace Marauder...
| Quote: | | With these suits being 90+ THOUSAND, i can't see a starting character ever getting their hands on one... AND their use, let alone wear, be so restricted, good luck getting around in one, to USE it that often.. |
Me either; I was just using the example to highlight how powerful one of these suits would be, if it can allow even a beginner PC access to the most secure information in the galaxy.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | The Hyperspace Marauder on pg. 104 of the Dark Empire Sourcebook has a custom-made multi-band computer interface antenna that grants a +3D bonus to Computer Programming and Security rolls when attempting to take over an opponent's shipboard computer. It's relatively short-ranged (only 500 meters on a starship-mounted system), but definitely powerful and capable.
Perhaps a Shard could effectively be a naturally occurring version of a multi-band computer interface antenna, as in, able to attempt wireless access without any wireless device, just without the +3D bonus, solely on their own Computer Programming skill dice |
In RAW, Shards get a +1D bonus for all computer-related skill attempts, including ones they connect with wirelessly. That feels like a fundamental aspect of the species concept to me so I'd be unwilling to remove that bonus...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | I would suggest that, in general, limited wireless links are allowed, but that the connection and authentication process is extremely robust, basically two separate AI programs exchanging digital handshakes to establish a link, and that hacking in wirelessly is vastly more difficult without specialized equipment. This allows for localized wireless connections like Lobot's connection to the central computer of Cloud City, but without making wireless connection anything close to what we have now. As such, it's easier to use a MicroThrust or similar device to make a physical connection, essentially bypassing the wireless network via a hardware connection that's part of your own, separate wireless network.
Of course, high security facilities could be set up to detect unauthorized wireless networks (such as might exist between a character's PD and their MicroThrust), so the character would need to use a cabled connection, or an astromech or similar droid that can make a physical connection. |
I'm more of the mind of your usual MO for this one. Unauthorized wireless connections shouldn't be automatically detected, but they may be more difficult to bypass.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | I'm thinking that in general, what would be better than just having some computers give a bonus to programming rolls would to move the standard down a bit and shrink the range scale, so some give a small penalty and some give a small bonus. Maybe minimum portable computers are -1, datapads are -2, and pocket computers are -1D. Then have more robust portable computers that are 0D or give a small bonus, and go up in pips from there... |
That sounds more like it; make computer programming much more dependent on the skill level of the character, not the hardware they're using. I can still see room for +5D stuff, but that would be more the area of a dedicated mainframe in a surface installation or major capital ship, and then only if you have the proper access codes. |
We're talking about computers that give you a bonus to a character's computer programming skill roll to use them. I'd be very hesitant to have any computer go above a +3D bonus, even a Death Star computer bank or planetary mainframe. If we reduce the range scale from 5D to five pips for portable computers and start the quality at -1, then portable computers would top out at +1D+1 and there is room to go above portable computers without getting too ridiculous. That seems much more reasonable to me. The focus shouldn't come off the character too much.
If this suit existed in my SWU I would probably top it off at +1D to computer rolls, but then again that would still make it equal to Shards.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | In RAW, Shards get a +1D bonus for all computer-related skill attempts, including ones they connect with wirelessly. That feels like a fundamental aspect of the species concept to me so I'd be unwilling to remove that bonus... |
That's fair. The Shard template also offers some interesting tidbits regarding wireless communication, particularly restraining bolts. I hadn't thought of it, but a restraining bolt has a lot of parallels to what we're discussing insofar as a wireless connection device, particularly with restraining bolts. Of course, the question there is whether a restraining bolt will only respond to control wands in its "network" or any control wand at all. I'm partial toward the limited network, as it's a major security hazard to have the droids in your secure facility respond to the control wands the infiltration team brought along with them.
| Quote: | | I'm more of the mind of your usual MO for this one. Unauthorized wireless connections shouldn't be automatically detected, but they may be more difficult to bypass... |
I'm not sure what you mean by "usual MO"; could you clarify?
I agree w/r/t unauthorized wireless connections (in the sense of a character trying to access an enemy network), and that would be best represented as a Computer Programming failure result. However, we're also discussing characters bringing their own networks with them (in the sense of using a remote device to create a hardware connection to an enemy computer, which connect wirelessly to the character's own datapad or portable computer). My point was more that those sorts of networks would be detectable by the installation's own security, simply by dint of the detection of foreign comm signals. However, I think that should be more of a narrative tool in the GM's bag of tricks to explain why the character can't use a remote computer spike and has to physically connect to it to gain access.
| Quote: | | We're talking about computers that give you a bonus to a character's computer programming skill roll to use them. |
Well, that's kinda what I meant; +5D computer systems may exist, but they certainly won't be mobile, wearable ones.
| Quote: | | If we reduce the range scale from 5D to five pips for portable computers and start the quality at -1, then portable computers would top out at +1D+1 and there is room to go above portable computers without getting too ridiculous. |
I could see going even lower, with some devices penalizing down into the -1D or -2D range, either because they're outdated or as a trade-off for other advantages (such as being concealable and able to be snuck in through whatever security procedures the installation has in place).
| Quote: | | If this suit existed in my SWU I would probably top it off at +1D to computer rolls, but then again that would still make it equal to Shards. |
One possibility that occurs to me w/r/t the Mainframe stat in the OP is to rename it Processor and have it stack with the D value of the HDT file being plugged into it, which adds some granularity to the overall ability of the computer in question to extrapolate data from whatever data file is plugged into it. That way, that number is purely about data processing internally, not about the ability to hack external systems.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | In RAW, Shards get a +1D bonus for all computer-related skill attempts, including ones they connect with wirelessly. That feels like a fundamental aspect of the species concept to me so I'd be unwilling to remove that bonus... |
That's fair. The Shard template also offers some interesting tidbits regarding wireless communication, particularly restraining bolts. I hadn't thought of it, but a restraining bolt has a lot of parallels to what we're discussing insofar as a wireless connection device, particularly with restraining bolts. |
Per lore the caller only has three commands: (1) to make the droid come to the caller, (2) to make the droid halt, and (3) to make the droid ready to accept new verbal orders (from the owner holding the caller). Shards can wirelessly imitate caller signals, but they would still be limited to three functions with droids wearing restraining bolts.
| Quote: | | Of course, the question there is whether a restraining bolt will only respond to control wands in its "network" or any control wand at all. I'm partial toward the limited network, as it's a major security hazard to have the droids in your secure facility respond to the control wands the infiltration team brought along with them. |
I completely agree that most secure facilities would not allow their droids to be remotely vulnerable to any caller, so there should indeed be a network. Perhaps those restraining bolts are even tuned to a certain frequency. Shards do have an electromagnetic sense that can sense any operating electronic device within a certain range, so they may be able to sense the frequency, but may still not be able to easily get into a secure network.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | Of course, high security facilities could be set up to detect unauthorized wireless networks (such as might exist between a character's PD and their MicroThrust), so the character would need to use a cabled connection, or an astromech or similar droid that can make a physical connection. |
I'm more of the mind of your usual MO for this one. Unauthorized wireless connections shouldn't be automatically detected, but they may be more difficult to bypass. |
I'm not sure what you mean by "usual MO"; could you clarify? |
I mean, instead of an absolute prohibition against characters being able to do it remotely without detection, give them chance with a higher difficulty.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | We're talking about computers that give you a bonus to a character's computer programming skill roll to use them... |
Well, that's kinda what I meant; +5D computer systems may exist, but they certainly won't be mobile, wearable ones. |
I question if +5D computers should even exist at all.
I definitely don't think "portable computers" (what amounts to a laptop) should even go anywhere near that high. The portable computers in CRFG that was cited in this discussion has six versions, +0D through +5D. That's crazy.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | If we reduce the range scale from 5D to five pips for portable computers and start the quality at -1, then portable computers would top out at +1D+1 and there is room to go above portable computers without getting too ridiculous. |
I could see going even lower, with some devices penalizing down into the -1D or -2D range, either because they're outdated or as a trade-off for other advantages (such as being concealable and able to be snuck in through whatever security procedures the installation has in place). |
As far as concealable computers go, I don't feel anything should be smaller than a pocket computer, which I envision to be about the size of a smart phone or scientific calculator. They could have an extendable scomp link on a wire for physically linking to a system. My suggestion above that pocket computers have a max of -1D was for an up-to-date model. Older pocket computers (or even other computers) certainly could have a penalty down to -2D.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Perhaps those restraining bolts are even tuned to a certain frequency. |
At a minimum, I'd say not only their own frequency, but their own encryption, as well, likely with a rolling sequence to keep it from being copied.
Ah, yes. I can see that applying to the skill roll to penetrate the network in such a way that the security software doesn't detect the intrusion, as that is dependent on the skill level of the character. However, being able to conceal an electromagnetic comm signal in the frequency range used for data-links while still being able to access the system sounds more like a hardware issue than a skill level one, and my usual MO is for characters, not tech. Characters should be capable of anything, so long as they roll high enough; technology should have limits.
Now, if a character knew they were going into a facility that was equipped to detect unauthorized data signals, and tried to get around it by setting up some sort of frequency-agile, low-probability-of-intercept signal link between his datapad and computer spike, I can see requiring a Communications roll at very high Difficulty to make it. That way, it's "possible, but improbable", and most likely easier to just forego it and use a hardware connection, especially since you won't know for sure whether or not it works until you actually try to use it in the field.
| Quote: | I question if +5D computers should even exist at all.
I definitely don't think "portable computers" (what amounts to a laptop) should even go anywhere near that high. The portable computers in CRFG that was cited in this discussion has six versions, +0D through +5D. That's crazy. |
Indeed. That's why I'm saying that a +5D would only be found in the Star Wars equivalent of a supercomputer mainframe in a high-level military or research facility, and certainly not on a portable device.
| Quote: | | As far as concealable computers go, I don't feel anything should be smaller than a pocket computer, which I envision to be about the size of a smart phone or scientific calculator. They could have an extendable scomp link on a wire for physically linking to a system. My suggestion above that pocket computers have a max of -1D was for an up-to-date model. Older pocket computers (or even other computers) certainly could have a penalty down to -2D. |
That size makes sense insofar as user interface; much smaller than a smart phone and you stop being able to manually operate it. I'm mostly thinking in terms of a custom built, "Q Branch" type device specifically designed for espionage work. It may not have all the bells and whistles of a normal pocket computer or datapad, but it has the advantage of being able to be smuggled into a facility that doesn't allow outside computer equipment to be brought inside their security perimeter, or as a way to still be able to slice a computer without obviously carrying around equipment that would allow you to do so.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | I'm more of the mind of your usual MO for this one. Unauthorized wireless connections shouldn't be automatically detected, but they may be more difficult to bypass.
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I could see a facility having it where, certain 'outlying consoles, are wifi, but are themselves, NOT connected to the secure servers or the like.. BUT the more 'up in clearance' you go, the LESS likely there are any wifi accesses..
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | That's fair. The Shard template also offers some interesting tidbits regarding wireless communication, particularly restraining bolts. I hadn't thought of it, but a restraining bolt has a lot of parallels to what we're discussing insofar as a wireless connection device, particularly with restraining bolts. Of course, the question there is whether a restraining bolt will only respond to control wands in its "network" or any control wand at all. I'm partial toward the limited network, as it's a major security hazard to have the droids in your secure facility respond to the control wands the infiltration team brought along with them. |
I'd say in GENERAL, restraining bolts, only work towards their controller.. BUT there are ways to reconfigure controllers to try ad hack other restraining bolts.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I agree w/r/t unauthorized wireless connections (in the sense of a character trying to access an enemy network), and that would be best represented as a Computer Programming failure result. However, we're also discussing characters bringing their own networks with them (in the sense of using a remote device to create a hardware connection to an enemy computer, which connect wirelessly to the character's own datapad or portable computer). My point was more that those sorts of networks would be detectable by the installation's own security, simply by dint of the detection of foreign comm signals. However, I think that should be more of a narrative tool in the GM's bag of tricks to explain why the character can't use a remote computer spike and has to physically connect to it to gain access. |
Exactly. A normal security system would monitor all comms in it, and have 'good flags' for known or regulated comm signals.. BUT if they detect others (such as someone trying to use that suit), that would (or should) Ping, an alert..
| CRMcNeill wrote: | Now, if a character knew they were going into a facility that was equipped to detect unauthorized data signals, and tried to get around it by setting up some sort of frequency-agile, low-probability-of-intercept signal link between his datapad and computer spike, I can see requiring a Communications roll at very high Difficulty to make it. That way, it's "possible, but improbable", and most likely easier to just forego it and use a hardware connection, especially since you won't know for sure whether or not it works until you actually try to use it in the field.
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Sort of hopping frequencies very quickly, so as to try and avoid being detected.. And yea, THAT would be a high as heck Comms roll.. PLUS you'd need to know the freqs the base is already using imo..
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
Ah, yes. I can see that applying to the skill roll to penetrate the network in such a way that the security software doesn't detect the intrusion, as that is dependent on the skill level of the character. However, being able to conceal an electromagnetic comm signal in the frequency range used for data-links while still being able to access the system sounds more like a hardware issue than a skill level one, and my usual MO is for characters, not tech. Characters should be capable of anything, so long as they roll high enough; technology should have limits. |
I'm now not sure if I ever understood that distinction. I'm thinking that some of the times you invoked that sentiment in the past was for cases I felt there should be a technological impossibility, so maybe there was also a disagreement over technological limits that I didn't catch at the time or that I'm not remembering now. But I don't have any examples atm. Anyway, thanks for the clarification.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Perhaps those restraining bolts are even tuned to a certain frequency. |
At a minimum, I'd say not only their own frequency, but their own encryption, as well, likely with a rolling sequence to keep it from being copied. |
That makes sense for secure facility droids. But I don't think encryption would be the norm for everyday civilian droid owners...
| garhkal wrote: | | I'd say in GENERAL, restraining bolts, only work towards their controller.. BUT there are ways to reconfigure controllers to try ad hack other restraining bolts. |
Like how my remote doesn't change my neighbor's TV, or my keyless entry doesn't unlock my neighbor's car? But since it would be inconvenient to have a separate caller for every restraining bolt if you have multiple droids, there must be a way to "pair" a bolt to a caller. And if there is then there should be a way to hack it.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I'm now not sure if I ever understood that distinction. I'm thinking that some of the times you invoked that sentiment in the past was for cases I felt there should be a technological impossibility, so maybe there was also a disagreement over technological limits that I didn't catch at the time or that I'm not remembering now. But I don't have any examples atm. Anyway, thanks for the clarification. |
The big example that comes to mind is, all other things being equal, a stock YT-1300 should not be able to outrun an A-Wing, regardless of how well the pilot rolls. There's room for a rule where either pilot can eke out an extra SU or two if he rolls well, but that shouldn't be enough to make up for the massive disparity in the design of the ships themselves.
W/r/t this particular topic, a character may be computer-savvy enough to finagle his way into a hostile computer network without setting off any alarms, but no matter how high he rolls on Computer Programming, he won't be able to disguise the comm signal from his wireless connection. Now, if he's thinking ahead, he may be able to roll Communications to disguise the signal, but that runs into problems of its own.
| Quote: | | That makes sense for secure facility droids. But I don't think encryption would be the norm for everyday civilian droid owners... |
I think some degree of encryption is appropriate; civilians have a vested interest in making sure that someone else can't just walk off with their droid just because they have a control wand. Civilian-grade restraining bolts would likely be hardwired to accept commands from a police or military-issue control wand. Now, I can see a stranger's wand having limited control, like forcing a strange droid to not approach (perhaps an institutional safety holdover from the droid army days), but they shouldn't be able to issue someone else's droid new commands.
| Quote: | | Like how my remote doesn't change my neighbor's TV, or my keyless entry doesn't unlock my neighbor's car? But since it would be inconvenient to have a separate caller for every restraining bolt if you have multiple droids, there must be a way to "pair" a bolt to a caller. And if there is then there should be a way to hack it. |
Absolutely. Like modern Bluetooth networks, but with a much more robust connection security procedure, which is made easier by the proliferation of AI-grade programming in basically every device, down to data storage. Slicing into such a network will be hugely dependent on both the security level of the network in question (Difficulty) and the skill level of the slicer.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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