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Jedi Ace pilot Force powers ?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Mamatried wrote:

I like this, maybe make a prerqisite for the power that you must know starship focus first.

then you can learn starship coordination, and split the bonus between weapons and shield equally given despite bing fighter pilots, the jedi are not supposed to be focusing on combat over all else, and as such sharing the bonus there to boost the shileds a little and the weapons a little with the added moost to piloting from the focus I think is more a fit to the jedi.

I can see maybe choosing the split between shilds and weapons, with a darker minded jedi/force user maybe applying the entire bonus to his weapons.


What is starship focus, and starship coordination???


It is basically the suggestions metioned in the tread posts.
names and mechanics also suggested in regards to the powers.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting points in here - and yes, the existing rules are messy - hence all the house rules.


On the Force Power part -

In my game, I have changed "lightsaber combat" to "Force Combat". I have simplified it quite a bit, but it works for any type of combat situation - the force user feels the force flowing through them... etc. etc. So, it could work in space combat.

Basically, in a nutshell.
Control gives a bonus to offensive skill checks, sense to defensive checks.

That is for parry, dodge, shooting, melee swings, what ever.

All other action rules apply.


(yes, one could get into the details and argue about control and sense - on how maybe that should be different - but I was wanting a simplified version that did NOT give a boost to damage - if you want a boost to damage, use a called shot to the head, or a weak spot in the armor).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the Piloting topic

However - as part of my advanced skill overhaul (adding more things for non-force users) I am working on a piloting advanced skill.
Basically, it is modeled like martial arts - you need a certain number of ranks in a normal skill, then can buy the advanced skill.
As the advanced skill improves, it unlocks abilities.

It would be something like: Starship Ace
Requires: Piloting of at least 5D specialized in a specific type of craft.
Starts at 1D: Can pick from a series of abilities (could call them maneuvers).

it would be a mix of offensive and defensive things. like making a called shot with a bonus to target a specific part of a ship. or maneuvering your ship in such a way that makes called shots more difficult, or giving a bonus to dodge tractor beams etc.

I had considered making two - one for fighter jock types, and one for smugglers and tramp freighter captains - but not sure I there would be enough diverse abilities that I could come up with that had actual merit, as opposed to just coming up with stuff - after all - don't like rules bloat.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another idea is an "Instinctive INSERT SKILL HERE" or "INSERT SKILL HERE Sense" Force power that is "kept up" like Lightsaber Combat, but is just a Sense power that adds the character's Sense dice to one specific non-Strength skill. The equivalent for any Strength skill be be a Control power like "INSERT STRENGTH SKILL HERE Control". I would suggest if used it be for one specific skill to avoid force users from being about to just add these dice to any skill at whim and this allows force users to be specialists- ace pilots, Crack mechanics, master negotiators, etc. Just an initial thought.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
Interesting points in here - and yes, the existing rules are messy - hence all the house rules.


On the Force Power part -

In my game, I have changed "lightsaber combat" to "Force Combat". I have simplified it quite a bit, but it works for any type of combat situation - the force user feels the force flowing through them... etc. etc. So, it could work in space combat.

Basically, in a nutshell.
Control gives a bonus to offensive skill checks, sense to defensive checks.

That is for parry, dodge, shooting, melee swings, what ever.

All other action rules apply.


(yes, one could get into the details and argue about control and sense - on how maybe that should be different - but I was wanting a simplified version that did NOT give a boost to damage - if you want a boost to damage, use a called shot to the head, or a weak spot in the armor).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the Piloting topic

However - as part of my advanced skill overhaul (adding more things for non-force users) I am working on a piloting advanced skill.
Basically, it is modeled like martial arts - you need a certain number of ranks in a normal skill, then can buy the advanced skill.
As the advanced skill improves, it unlocks abilities.

It would be something like: Starship Ace
Requires: Piloting of at least 5D specialized in a specific type of craft.
Starts at 1D: Can pick from a series of abilities (could call them maneuvers).

it would be a mix of offensive and defensive things. like making a called shot with a bonus to target a specific part of a ship. or maneuvering your ship in such a way that makes called shots more difficult, or giving a bonus to dodge tractor beams etc.

I had considered making two - one for fighter jock types, and one for smugglers and tramp freighter captains - but not sure I there would be enough diverse abilities that I could come up with that had actual merit, as opposed to just coming up with stuff - after all - don't like rules bloat.



I ike this.

I was however thinking maybe some adjustments. I was thinking basically changing the effects of lightsaber/force combat to starfigher only. being basically a starship or starfither focus/combat power

Then have at the cost of a force point (temporary used to imbue the starfigher) you can now use the power to DEVIDE among shileds and gunnery skills .

The force point can be invested to gain the coordination effect of mutliple skills gunnery/piloting/shileds maybe even sensors and more. this make the jedi operate at -1 FP outside his starfighter.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
In my game, I have changed "lightsaber combat" to "Force Combat". I have simplified it quite a bit, but it works for any type of combat situation - the force user feels the force flowing through them... etc. etc. So, it could work in space combat.

This somewhat parallels my line of thinking, but the bonuses almost certainly need to be reduced. Allowing a Force user to add their Control or Sense Dice to all their combat skills would be extremely unbalancing.

My current line of thinking folds Combat Sense into what you suggest above. What I'm picturing is:
    -When the character rolls to bring the power up, they get a bonus equal to 1 pip for every 2 points by which the roll beat the base Difficulty (depending on how this plays out, I may lower the bonus to 1 pip for every 3 points of success).

    -However, if that bonus is less than +2D (the bonus from Combat Sense), the character gets +2D instead.

    -The "lasts for 10 rounds" aspect of Combat Sense is dropped, in favor of Lightsaber Combat's requirement of keeping the power up.

    -The character may drop the power and attempt to re-roll and bring it up again in the hopes of generating a better bonus, but this is best done in conjunction with spending CP or FPs (which also nicely represents the cinematic effect of a dramatic shift in the flow of combat).

    -Deflecting blaster bolts would revert to the 1E rules where the character rolls their Sense dice to block them, but this can be done with any solid object. However, unless specifically noted as being immune to blaster fire, the object takes damage as normal, and only a few weapons are capable of redirecting blaster bolts back at the shooter.
Frankly, Combat Sense shouldn't exist; the entire basis for the power is Zahn's narrative description of Lightsaber Combat in Dark Force Rising. Better to fold it into an updated and expanded rule that better encompasses the connection of the individual to the Force.

Quote:
Basically, in a nutshell.
Control gives a bonus to offensive skill checks, sense to defensive checks.

That is for parry, dodge, shooting, melee swings, what ever.

All other action rules apply.

Same. MAPs would still be applicable, but this mainly hurts Force users at lower levels, and is offset by the Force Attribute house rule that moves starting characters several steps up the rung.

Quote:
(yes, one could get into the details and argue about control and sense - on how maybe that should be different - but I was wanting a simplified version that did NOT give a boost to damage - if you want a boost to damage, use a called shot to the head, or a weak spot in the armor).

Yes. Strictly speaking, Sense and Control would both provide advantages to offense and defense, but the problem becomes how you would cross-apply them. Sense = Defense / Control = Offense may not get the details right, but it's simple enough for tabletop purposes.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
pakman wrote:
Interesting points in here - and yes, the existing rules are messy - hence all the house rules.


On the Force Power part -

In my game, I have changed "lightsaber combat" to "Force Combat". I have simplified it quite a bit, but it works for any type of combat situation - the force user feels the force flowing through them... etc. etc. So, it could work in space combat.
This somewhat parallels my line of thinking, but the bonuses almost certainly need to be reduced. Allowing a Force user to add their Control or Sense Dice to all their combat skills would be extremely unbalancing.


I agree with C.. IF i could see allowing it, i'd have it where EACH player picked WHICH form of combat that force combat applied too.. Blaster, Brawl, Melee, Vehicle, or fighter. NOT All, as to me that makes it a lot MORE overpowering than just having it be LS combat is...
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I agree with C.. IF i could see allowing it, i'd have it where EACH player picked WHICH form of combat that force combat applied too.. Blaster, Brawl, Melee, Vehicle, or fighter. NOT All, as to me that makes it a lot MORE overpowering than just having it be LS combat is...

Technically, we already have a system for that: skills. Write up a Force Combat power that provides middling-to-low bonuses, then allow characters to put their skill dice where they want their character to specialize. A traditional Jedi will put their dice into Lightsaber, whereas a Pilot specialist will lean more toward Mechanical skills, at the expense of personal combat ones. This gets mentioned as part of the write-up for Form VI, that it's a relatively low-effort lightsaber form that allows its practitioners more time to focus on other skills, such as diplomacy or piloting.
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windshare
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow ! Thanks for all the answers, that a lot of material to work from Smile
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Forceally
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading all this is making me reconsider what's been posted on the old Rebellion website - both of those abilities were converted to concentration in d6 status. Reconsider it and make my own conversion to add to my work. A final decision on that is still pending.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Dr. Bidlo wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
The problem with Enhance Attribute to Mech is that any meaningful bonus will be completely overcome by MAPs.

Enhance Attribute is not "Kept up" but instead is rolled once and afterwards provides a bonus for a set number of rounds and can be kept in effect additional rounds at the cost of 1 CP per extra round, but it is not "kept up" so there is no MAP for keeping the force power up. The other MAPS you mentioned would apply, but they apply to any starfighter pilot, so a max +3D bonus still helps significantly. I confirmed this to be the case with the power description in Dark Force Rising. Unless it was later changed in another source, this is how it should be.

But to get the +3D Bonus, you're still having to either roll once per round or burn CP to keep it up.

The way it is in RAW and the way it should be are two different things, but we should be clear on RAW before moving on to discuss modifying it.

http://d6holocron.com/wiki/index.php/Enhance_Attribute

You do not necessarily "roll once per round" without CPs. How well you roll control determines both the duration and amount of the bonus (inversely to each other). +3D lasts for one round, +2D lasts for 2 rounds, and +1D lasts for three rounds, and as others have stated, that is without MAPs. One thing unclear about the rule is when the bonus and duration clock starts (the round rolled or the following round are the two most logical options). If it starts the same round, there would be a MAP from the control roll which would cancel out a +1D bonus for that round, but that bonus would last for 2 more rounds after that without a MAP.

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I have played and GMed a lot of jedi over the years and the rules for the Force are so messy, I would rather just avoid it entirely these days rather than try to completely overhaul a broken system. But that is just me.

I've ran entire campaigns without Force users, but the Force is too fundamental to Star Wars for me to chuck it completely from the game. To me, it's worth the effort to fix it.

CRMcNeill wrote:
This doesn't fit the flavor of how the Jedi use the Force in combat, allowing it to guide their actions / obey their commands. A Control-only power would just enhance the character's normal, physical senses (improved eyesight, hand-eye coordination, situational awareness, data processing, etc). It may provide a bonus, but not in the way it should.

I agree. Enhancing attributes seems to be a thing the Force could do, but I don't care for the power as written. Since some skills enhanced would seem to involve sense, maybe the power should be control+sense for starters.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Allowing Enhance Attribute to substitute for a more general, Sense-based combat power is a sop to the overall problem of poorly written rules that only allow a Jedi's connection to the Force to come into play in combat if they're holding a lightsaber.

I agree that a Jedi's connection in the Force shouldn't only come into play when they're holding a lightsaber, but I don't mind the Force system having unique abilities with lightsabers because lightsabers are attuned to the Force; constructing them requires the Force. (That's why Grievous only collected the weapons of dead Jedi. He couldn't make them himself.)

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I agree with C.. IF i could see allowing it, i'd have it where EACH player picked WHICH form of combat that force combat applied too.. Blaster, Brawl, Melee, Vehicle, or fighter. NOT All, as to me that makes it a lot MORE overpowering than just having it be LS combat is...

Technically, we already have a system for that: skills. Write up a Force Combat power that provides middling-to-low bonuses, then allow characters to put their skill dice where they want their character to specialize. A traditional Jedi will put their dice into Lightsaber, whereas a Pilot specialist will lean more toward Mechanical skills, at the expense of personal combat ones. This gets mentioned as part of the write-up for Form VI, that it's a relatively low-effort lightsaber form that allows its practitioners more time to focus on other skills, such as diplomacy or piloting.
Forceally wrote:
Reading all this is making me reconsider what's been posted on the old Rebellion website - both of those abilities were converted to concentration in d6 status.

We could work with the general premises of Concentration and Enhance Attribute to write better Force powers. Concentration for single actions, and Enhance Attribute for groups of skills (such as Mechanical skills).
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pakman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great thread gang!

A few notes;

Making it just a piloting thing
Sure! sounds good, what ever works for the game. More diversity will have less concentration.

On CRM"s comment;
Quote:
This somewhat parallels my line of thinking, but the bonuses almost certainly need to be reduced. Allowing a Force user to add their Control or Sense Dice to all their combat skills would be extremely unbalancing.


Two thoughts on this;
1 - they already can add all their dice to lightsaber combat - I can't see how if they could add it to other skills, which would more than likely be LESS skill bonus than LS combat, it would more or less unbalancing than it is today.

2 - However, that point is ok, as it DOES need to be reduced.
In my game, because force users start out a bit higher in dice (because I have a force attribute and skills - but that is a topic in other threads) they can start using powers sooner.
HOWEVER _ I have reduced the power curve on all powers - so while they can use them sooner, they don't get broken as fast.
For example, on my combat - instead of adding the Control skill bonus, you get 1 PIP for each D in control So if you had 3D control, you would get 1D.

Looking at the current rules, with all the maps and rolls and average skills and results - starting jedi are lucky to get 1D net bonus. So mine is pretty close.

No need to worry about any additional thresholds, or if more or less.

A bit of a tangent...
With all my force changes, they are coming close to my goals ;
* Force users get to use powers sooner.
* There are less die rolls (EVERY single power is only one skill roll).
* The bonuses in the beginning are close to raw.
* The bonuses later on progress much slower (1/3rd as much).

Now, having said that all, I am on the fence about some parts of things - in order to make things less complicated in play - but that is the topic for another post.

Amway, great conversation - I still have lots of little nuances to work out - and CRM's comment about combat sense ring true for me as well - trying to decide of both are needed (combat sense seems to be more for users with just sense?).
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
1 - they already can add all their dice to lightsaber combat - I can't see how if they could add it to other skills, which would more than likely be LESS skill bonus than LS combat, it would more or less unbalancing than it is today.


It's because as is it is one skill being enhanced by ONE force power..
IF you extend that power to now work with over half a Dozen of skills (blaster, melee, melee parry, brawl, missile weapons, sf gunnery, sf piloting, vehicle blasters, just to name a few), then that ONE force power get;s a little overbearing..
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I agree that a Jedi's connection in the Force shouldn't only come into play when they're holding a lightsaber, but I don't mind the Force system having unique abilities with lightsabers because lightsabers are attuned to the Force; constructing them requires the Force. (That's why Grievous only collected the weapons of dead Jedi. He couldn't make them himself.)

I'm okay with the idea of the Jedi having to use the Force to build a lightsaber by hand - the finnicky nature of the Saber Rake lightfoils is indicative of how unreliable a lightsaber would be without it - but I stop short of thinking that the lightsaber somehow enhances or focuses the Force. To my way of thinking, the Jedi has two avenues by which to improve his combat abilities, by improving his combat skills of choice and by improving his own mastery and knowledge of the Force.

As far as Grievous, I'd say that he simply got satisfaction out of killing Jedi with their own weapons.

Regarding Concentration and Enhance Attribute, I agree that the Force is more than capable of doing what these powers represent, but they were always poor representations of what they were trying to represent (Concentration for the power Luke used to hit the exhaust port and Enhance Attribute for Force Jumping). Based on the narrative presentation of the exhaust port shot, Luke wasn't concentrating nearly so much as he was using the intuitive guidance of the Force to tell him exactly where/when to fire his torpedo. That's practically the polar opposite of concentration. And for Force Jumping, a +1D boost to the Jump/Climb skill (which is all that most low-to-mid-level Force users can do unless they can roll a 28 or higher) isn't nearly enough to represent the sorts of feats Jedi are seen doing on screen.

My initial thought would be to fold the two into a single power that provides better bonuses, but applied to a single action or closely related group of actions (like Starfighter Piloting and Starship Gunnery, or Melee Combat and Melee Parry). But as far as the subject of this topic, I think any sort of Pilot Ace Force Power very much needs to have at least a Sense component, and almost certainly Control, as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
* There are less die rolls (EVERY single power is only one skill roll).

I see this being an issue. One of the biggest complaints about Jedi is how their power level slopes up faster relative to that of non-FS PCs, and MAPs are a major factor in keeping them throttled back, both in terms of the available dice to make the appropriate Difficulty checks and forcing the PC to forego certain powers on account of having to space the power's activation over 2-3 rounds to avoid the attendant MAPs.

pakman wrote:
Control gives a bonus to offensive skill checks, sense to defensive checks.

That is for parry, dodge, shooting, melee swings, what ever.

Also, I misread this earlier. I actually find I prefer the Lightsaber Combat distribution, where Sense is applied to both offense and defense rolls, while Control is applied to Damage. I already use a 3=1 variant of the RoE Accuracy Damage rule, so allowing a Control bonus to fine-tune the accuracy of a shot on top of that fits well with the sorts of things we see Jedi/Sith do in fighter combat, hitting the exact right component of a ship as needed, whether the goal is to destroy the target, disable it, or just bring down its docking bay shields at exactly the right moment.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I agree that a Jedi's connection in the Force shouldn't only come into play when they're holding a lightsaber, but I don't mind the Force system having unique abilities with lightsabers because lightsabers are attuned to the Force; constructing them requires the Force. (That's why Grievous only collected the weapons of dead Jedi. He couldn't make them himself.)

As far as Grievous, I'd say that he simply got satisfaction out of killing Jedi with their own weapons.

Yes, but I only brought up Grievous to point out he couldn't make them (even if he wanted to), and I only brought up Jedi using the Force to make lightsabers to point out that there is something special about lightsabers compared to other weapons. I only brought that up because it is not unreasonable that over the course of the millennia, Jedi have developed a Force power specific to their preferred weapon/tool. A Force power Grievous doesn't have.

Quote:
I'm okay with the idea of the Jedi having to use the Force to build a lightsaber by hand - the finnicky nature of the Saber Rake lightfoils is indicative of how unreliable a lightsaber would be without it - but I stop short of thinking that the lightsaber somehow enhances or focuses the Force.

I agree with that. I was saying that Force users who have learned the power can do things with lightsabers that others can't do, such as deflect blaster bolts. Saber rakes shouldn't be able to do that, and personally I also do not see the Jedi doing that with anything other than a lightsaber.

Quote:
(Concentration for the power Luke used to hit the exhaust port...). Based on the narrative presentation of the exhaust port shot, Luke wasn't concentrating nearly so much as he was using the intuitive guidance of the Force to tell him exactly where/when to fire his torpedo. That's practically the polar opposite of concentration.

I said as much in 2019. Obi-Wan's guidance in the trench is a continuation of Luke's brief training with the remote on the Falcon. Obi-Wan told him to "Let go of your conscious self, and act on instinct." In the trench, Luke was still being told to "let go." Lucas further highlights this by contrast with little Ani in TPM, who was younger with a less developed ego so was naturally more instinctive, making it possible for him to "oops" and destroy the mother ship.

Quote:
(...Enhance Attribute for Force Jumping)...And for Force Jumping, a +1D boost to the Jump/Climb skill (which is all that most low-to-mid-level Force users can do unless they can roll a 28 or higher) isn't nearly enough to represent the sorts of feats Jedi are seen doing on screen.

The power's description says that it can make a character jump higher, but the problem is that the RAW jumping skill rules don't give any guidelines for height jumped, so it isn't clear exactly how getting a bonus to your roll helps you jump higher (as opposed to just a lower chance of failure). So one wanted to roll "Force Jump" into Enhance Attribute, the jumping rules themselves may need clarified.

Quote:
But as far as the subject of this topic, I think any sort of Pilot Ace Force Power very much needs to have at least a Sense component, and almost certainly Control, as well.

Yes. Remember, I even think Telekinesis needs a sense component.
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