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Passive Physical Awareness
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Whill
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I had been playing this per Blue Vader for as long as I have been GRINGO.

I was just rereading this thread and saw this. Clearly a case of auto correct, but I have no idea what the correct word should have been... maybe "PLAYING" but it is so far off the word that popped up, I am not sure what happened. Funny, though.

lol

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
OUR current tech isn't that good, to locate batteries.. SW tech on the other hand, should be able to...

Based on what? Characters sneak around with electronic equipment (blasters, comlinks, etc) all the time. The only tech in-universe that presents as capable of that level of detection (the weapon scanners used in the Corporate Sector) have to be within a couple meters.

Plus you're talking about a miniscule sensor blip mixed in with hundreds or even thousands of other mundane ones (trees, animals, rocks that've been out in the sun all day, and that's before you get into an urban environment where electronics are as common as dirt). Even assuming sensors are sensitive enough to pick up electronic equipment (and remember, said tech will likely incorporate some degree of emission control on account of it being designed for military use), there's still the matter of sorting it from the myriad of other electronic signals said sensors will be picking up.

You have to remember the context of his comments. Evil GMs always ambush PCs based on minuscule things. Twisted Evil
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: sensors tangent Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
...Are you saying that these helmet sensors constantly search for possible ambushes?...

Sensors in the sense that it's using enhanced vision, audio and chemical detectors, which are analogous to a character's senses of sight, hearing and smell. This, in turn, would be expressed as a droid brain whose only job is to roll Search once per round. For the purposes of this discussion, it would allow the wearer to effectively make a Search roll every round without the MAP, since "someone else" is making the roll.
CRMcNeill wrote:
I was mostly bringing it up in the context of the discussion of passive vs. active perception/search.

As the rest of my unquoted text indicated, I was trying to put this into the context of the passive vs. active discussion. In RAW (R&E only), search is both passive and active, but some of us do not include passive awareness with search. For the "search" roll every round, do you see this as passive awareness or active awareness?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this can be solved with some little mixing of things. Basically using an initiative approach to the passive perception, be this rolled for the group or the individual.

So basically the roll can allow the players to "automatically" detect anything hidden that has a very easy and easy difficulty, and perhpas even higher.

This roll lasts for the round, the players see most things scattered about, but they are focused on the task so they are not searching, they therefore do notice "all the easy " things, and must still roll normally for any other more thorough searches.

So in short, the players notice evertbing in the round that has a easy perception, and must roll for any other perception rolls or to search more torough, this mean that they will notice the "feeling" of the guy hiding around the corner as long as he is "easy" to detect.
The magazine he dropped that could expose his position IS easy to notice and the players then "automatically" notice it, and form there could roll to notive the man by the corner if he hid well enough.


Roll vs Perception this round. high enough roll will allow automatic detection of all very easy to easy difficulties. this lasts for the roundl or the encounter, or the day what ever, then ALL encounters all scenes that has anything hidden that fall into the difficulty detected will then be exposed to the players without the need for any rolls, but they must still reasonably dtect it, as such they can not see the corpse in the middel of the hallway if they are not in the hallway to see it. or the datacard half hidden and half under the corpse.

then if they decide to acitvely look around they then roll foe that action.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

You have to remember the context of his comments. Evil GMs always ambush PCs based on minuscule things. Twisted Evil


Actually, its because i have seen others try to argue like he has, in that they claim "WE should be able to have droids with us, popping off sensors every round around us, with NO penalty to our ability to sneak but THEIR sensors will alert US before we need to worry about search rolls"...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
You have to remember the context of his comments. Evil GMs always ambush PCs based on minuscule things. Twisted Evil

True, but I still have to push back when his objections cross the line into abject silliness.

garhkal wrote:
Actually, its because i have seen others try to argue like he has, in that they claim "WE should be able to have droids with us, popping off sensors every round around us, with NO penalty to our ability to sneak but THEIR sensors will alert US before we need to worry about search rolls"...

I shouldn't need to point out that a droid-brain-operated, passive-only sensor system built into a combat helmet will not have anything like the same sensor signature as a fully autonomous Character-Scale droid walking around with its own body and power supply.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: sensors tangent Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
For the "search" roll every round, do you see this as passive awareness or active awareness?

It's something of a blend. It would effectively be Passive on the part of the person wearing the helmet, because the droid brain would be responsible for the Active part, subsequently alerting the wearer via audio/visual alerts built into the helmet itself. In game terms, this would probably best be represented as a bonus to Search (if actively using the skill) or Perception (if performing other tasks).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I shouldn't need to point out that a droid-brain-operated, passive-only sensor system built into a combat helmet will not have anything like the same sensor signature as a fully autonomous Character-Scale droid walking around with its own body and power supply.


ANd how far out do you see that droid helmet operated passive sensor suite being able to go out to???
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
ANd how far out do you see that droid helmet operated passive sensor suite being able to go out to???

Since it's essentially enhanced vision, hearing and sense of smell (maybe with a Dedicated Energy Receptor thrown in for good measure), all being run by a droid brain, it'd be applicable anywhere a Search roll would be.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: sensors tangent Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
ANd how far out do you see that droid helmet operated passive sensor suite being able to go out to???

Since it's essentially enhanced vision, hearing and sense of smell (maybe with a Dedicated Energy Receptor thrown in for good measure), all being run by a droid brain, it'd be applicable anywhere a Search roll would be.
CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Sensors in the sense that it's using enhanced vision, audio and chemical detectors, which are analogous to a character's senses of sight, hearing and smell. This, in turn, would be expressed as a droid brain whose only job is to roll Search once per round. For the purposes of this discussion, it would allow the wearer to effectively make a Search roll every round without the MAP, since "someone else" is making the roll.

For the "search" roll every round, do you see this as passive awareness or active awareness?

It's something of a blend. It would effectively be Passive on the part of the person wearing the helmet, because the droid brain would be responsible for the Active part, subsequently alerting the wearer via audio/visual alerts built into the helmet itself. In game terms, this would probably best be represented as a bonus to Search (if actively using the skill) or Perception (if performing other tasks).

Thanks for the clarification. I doubt anything like this would appear in my game much, but if it did, I wouldn't run it like that. I feel like it is a cheat to have helmet AI that adds a bonus to the character's skill roll and waives the MAP.

If it is AI and "someone else" is making the roll, then the roll would be the droid brain's sensors skill and it would use sensor rules which already account for the difference between passive and active in a different way (sensor modes). So this way it would really be outside the scope of this thread which is about whether the search skill includes passive awareness or not.

If the helmet just provides a bonus to the character's Perception/search roll, then it is the character making the roll and it should still be subject to MAPs (and the free Perception roll rule already takes MAPs into account per se because the character can't be doing anything else requiring significant attention). And since the hemet just provides a bonus to the character, it wouldn't really even need AI. Handling it this way, the helmet is just a character-boosting technology and independent of how we handle passive awareness in the game because the helmet is an overlay that works with any of the options.
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