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House rules for Character Points and in game use
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Something I've proposed in the past is a Familiarity Bonus, awarded by GMs when a player makes use of a specific ship, vehicle or piece of equipment. Say a character uses his Walker Operation skill (or even just his Mechanical Attribute) several times to pilot an AT-ST in the course of a session. At the end of that session, I would award the PC a small bonus (likely +1) specifically to the specialization Walker Operation: AT-ST, just to represent the fact that the character picked up a few pointers about how to operate that particular model of walker in the course of his "on-the-job training."

So a permanent freebie based on experience, huh? I wouldn't do that because the system was designed such that the experience points earned for adventuring that the player spends on improving skills already represents experienced gained. A PC typically does many things in an adventure but only has so many points so must choose how to spend the limited amount of points. If they get freebies then I feel that devalues the points earned, and some PCs may get more freebies than others. It might make a bit more sense if experience points were restricted to only improving base skills and specializations were only possible in the game at all by this 'familiarity' freebie.

Granted, a free specialization pip here and there may not that big of a deal, but I have a more conservative view on familiarity. Based on my view that attribute default for unskilled skill use is a fundamental premise of D6 (for non-advanced skills), I have ruled that using unfamiliar complex tech (or attempting some other complex things) unskilled may involve a temporary unfamiliarity penalty, and once a character uses the tech for a short time the penalty disappears and it is straight attribute default until the skill is improved. This doesn't really involve tracking. It is just, "OK, you've done it enough to get the hang of it so the penalty is gone now."

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
Whill wrote:
So CPs burned for the temporary bonus in-play are tracked for every skill, and then when a player have burned the number of CPs equal to the number needed to increase the skill by "one pip" according to the skill improvement rules, the skill goes up?


Yes, I believe that's it.

Whill wrote:
What if the player decides to spend the CPs the normal way to improve the skill in the mean time? Are the tracked CPs for burning lost and the player starts over on that track for the skill (towards the now higher next pip), or are the burned CPs always tracked so that eventually they will improve the skill without having to spend the CPs?


No, tracked or banked CPs are never lost. It doesn't matter whether the skill is increased in-game by using the CPs for the skill bonus or between games. If a character ends the game with two CP banked toward advancing a skill, it will cost two less to increase that skill between games. Does that make sense?

Yes, I understand. Thanks.

As designed, CPs are a limited pool of points that players can choose to improve their character or 'burn' them in play for the temporary bonus. Using them for either purpose comes at a cost of using them for the other.

But with this house rule, using them for a temporary bonus doesn't actually spend the CPs, because they still go towards improving skills. Since players can control which skill rolls they spend CPs on, they can control which skills eventually get improved. With this rule, it actually wouldn't make sense for players to hold any CPs back to improve skills the normal way, because if they get the temporary bonus the points still go towards buying the skill improvement anyway. Hopefully your players have all figured this out, and don't bother improving skills the normal way. If some players are boosting rolls more than the others, then they are getting more of an advantage.

Personally, I don't like one option to include the full value of the other option plus give them a bonus on a roll. It's not balanced. And it is unfair if not all players are taking equal advantage of it. Also, it gives players bonus to rolls on skills before the same skills are improved, which seems backwards to the way experience should work.

For GMs that want to work with this concept, one suggested revision would be to decrease the value of the 'boosted skill credit' in half, thus making those skill increases take twice as many CPs to improve as the normal method for skill improvement. Then there is still some cost for boosting rolls.

Of course, all groups should do whatever works for them, like anything else.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
I think your proposed way of doing this makes a lot of sense, Dr. Bidlo. It's a bit more bookkeeping than I care for, but I like it!


That is true. However most of my players are completely new to SWD6 believe it or not. I have all their character sheets up on the screen as we play and I track every skill and CP on the screen as they track on their own method of choice (computer or traditional paper and pencil). Since I custom created the character sheets, there is a spot to track CPs used toward a skill, but it is more record keeping.

I also sometimes give out CPs for doing/finding specific objectives mid-game for a little boost, but only for hidden bonus objectives that they are often not even aware of.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can not remember if it was a RAW rule or a house rule.

But we have been using CPs like this for years.


Joe has 3D+2 in his skill, he decides to spend a CP to add +1D to his roll
this becuse he needs to use his blaster skill becuse of difficulties and to be more sure of a good enough reult.
He rolles with a +1D for this turn with his blaster, this ONE acation, notnhis entrie turn.

this CP is however lost, he can earn a new one after the advanture.

As to using it on Specializations, the only time we did this as I can remember was once we needed to do surgery, remove a dart from someone's arm.

becuse it surgey is a speciality, we decided to make this a heroic difficulty.
our medic had 4D+2 in first aid and spent a CP to roll VS the heroic task at 5D+1 he did however fail and thus we decided that the injury was worse by not one but two steps, where he ended up mortally wounded ( he did survive eventually) and had to be stabilized and taken to a backta tank.

so what we did was allow the CP to add +1D to the roll, the CP is lost
this goes for any rolls, including specializations, however a failure is twice as severe.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I can not remember if it was a RAW rule or a house rule.

But we have been using CPs like this for years.


Joe has 3D+2 in his skill, he decides to spend a CP to add +1D to his roll
this becuse he needs to use his blaster skill becuse of difficulties and to be more sure of a good enough reult.
He rolles with a +1D for this turn with his blaster, this ONE acation, notnhis entrie turn.

this CP is however lost, he can earn a new one after the advanture.

As to using it on Specializations, the only time we did this as I can remember was once we needed to do surgery, remove a dart from someone's arm.

becuse it surgey is a speciality, we decided to make this a heroic difficulty.
our medic had 4D+2 in first aid and spent a CP to roll VS the heroic task at 5D+1 he did however fail and thus we decided that the injury was worse by not one but two steps, where he ended up mortally wounded ( he did survive eventually) and had to be stabilized and taken to a backta tank.

so what we did was allow the CP to add +1D to the roll, the CP is lost
this goes for any rolls, including specializations, however a failure is twice as severe.


Using CPs as a one-time +1D bonus (that works like a wild die when a 6 is rolled) that is expended and provides no other benefit is per RAW. You could use up to to 2CPs for a skill, and up to 5 CPs to resist damage or for a specialization.

My house rule gives the extra benefit of being tracked to apply to advancing the skill as an added effect beyond the RAW. This is where many may feel it is a double benefit (which it is admittedly) but may be too powerful.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
As designed, CPs are a limited pool of points that players can choose to improve their character or 'burn' them in play for the temporary bonus. Using them for either purpose comes at a cost of using them for the other.

But with this house rule, using them for a temporary bonus doesn't actually spend the CPs, because they still go towards improving skills. Since players can control which skill rolls they spend CPs on, they can control which skills eventually get improved. With this rule, it actually wouldn't make sense for players to hold any CPs back to improve skills the normal way, because if they get the temporary bonus the points still go towards buying the skill improvement anyway. Hopefully your players have all figured this out, and don't bother improving skills the normal way. If some players are boosting rolls more than the others, then they are getting more of an advantage.else.


I don't know if it is sitting hairs but I disagree with some of what you are saying here. CPs used per this house rule are very much spent. The immediate bonus happens once and the player cannot recover the CPs, but instead they are applied toward advancing the skill and are just place holders until the rest of the CPs needed are used to increase the skill through normal skill advancement between games or by using this house rule. Either way, the CPs are spent.

As far as players using CPs wisely, yes that is what happens but I am not sure why it is problematic. If players only ever improve skills in this way, they may not be prepared for a challenging situation for which they have not trained. Say they are trying to get past a locked blast door but they never bothered to increase their Security skill? Well, if they had been working on it earlier they would be okay, but they might be in a jam. They can use up to 2 CPs with this house rule and work toward increasing their skill at the same time, but if they are starting at 2D and have Very Difficult difficulty, then good luck to them!

I also play as a character in a group using this rule and I regularly increase the non combat skills that don't get used often in a game session because I need to be ready when they are needed.


Whill wrote:
Personally, I don't like one option to include the full value of the other option plus give them a bonus on a roll. It's not balanced. And it is unfair if not all players are taking equal advantage of it. Also, it gives players bonus to rolls on skills before the same skills are improved, which seems backwards to the way experience should work.

For GMs that want to work with this concept, one suggested revision would be to decrease the value of the 'boosted skill credit' in half, thus making those skill increases take twice as many CPs to improve as the normal method for skill improvement. Then there is still some cost for boosting rolls.

Of course, all groups should do whatever works for them, like anything else.


Yeah, this is very much preference. I personally have always felt the CP reward guidelines in the writen adventures were way too stingy. Play for two or three session and get 6-9 Character Points... no thanks. I like to see characters grown out of mediocrity. If Luke Skywalker were a player, he would have had a 5D lightsaber skill and 3D Control, Sense, and Alter by the time he faced Vader in Jedi if his GM was generous!

I do give out Character Points more freely because life is short and as a working adult, I can only get in a handful of games each year.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:55 pm    Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
Yeah, this is very much preference. I personally have always felt the CP reward guidelines in the writen adventures were way too stingy. Play for two or three session and get 6-9 Character Points... no thanks. I like to see characters grown out of mediocrity. If Luke Skywalker were a player, he would have had a 5D lightsaber skill and 3D Control, Sense, and Alter by the time he faced Vader in Jedi if his GM was generous!

I do give out Character Points more freely because life is short and as a working adult, I can only get in a handful of games each year.

I feel the same way, and I'm not sure you noticed that I just address that in a different way. Instead of fast character advancement, I start PCs better off than RAW. Humans PCs, for example, start off with 12D in starting skill dice. That way PCs are better from Day One in the campaign. I've consolidated skills too, so skill dice/pips have on average more 'bang for your buck' in my game than RAW. PCs in my game are far above mediocrity, and that's even with improving average human stats.

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
Whill wrote:
As designed, CPs are a limited pool of points that players can choose to improve their character or 'burn' them in play for the temporary bonus. Using them for either purpose comes at a cost of using them for the other.

But with this house rule, using them for a temporary bonus doesn't actually spend the CPs, because they still go towards improving skills. Since players can control which skill rolls they spend CPs on, they can control which skills eventually get improved. With this rule, it actually wouldn't make sense for players to hold any CPs back to improve skills the normal way, because if they get the temporary bonus the points still go towards buying the skill improvement anyway. Hopefully your players have all figured this out, and don't bother improving skills the normal way. If some players are boosting rolls more than the others, then they are getting more of an advantage.else.

I don't know if it is sitting hairs but I disagree with some of what you are saying here. CPs used per this house rule are very much spent. The immediate bonus happens once and the player cannot recover the CPs, but instead they are applied toward advancing the skill and are just place holders until the rest of the CPs needed are used to increase the skill through normal skill advancement between games or by using this house rule. Either way, the CPs are spent.

It's not splitting hairs. There is a stark difference, so it looks like you do not understand me. By "spent" I mean completely gone, providing no more benefit ever. When your players use a CP to boost a roll, the CPs are only "spent" as far as boosting rolls. They are NOT completely spent yet because they still provide the same mathematical benefit that they do when not boosting rolls in-play. The CPs boosting rolls provide one benefit, and then they are banked towards providing a second, different benefit.

And I addressed the other possibility for spending CPs to advanced skills, training for skills not used in adventures. I get that your house rule can't help PCs with training, only experience for things they do. But do you have PCs training to improve a skill several pips/dice without the PC ever having the opportunity to use the skill in adventures a lot? I don't. In my campaigns, PCs tend to have opportunities to gain experience for things they want to get better at, so they spend their CPs to improve skills based on experience (successful use of the skill in an adventure) and not have a need to train a lot in between adventures.

But even with a need for training, this house rule allows you to get two benefits for each CP spent boosting a roll, while only one benefit for improving skills the RAW way. This is why it doesn't work for me. I worded my responses as such. I am not criticizing you, or any other GM for using this rule. If this works for you, great. Thanks for sharing it and explaining it.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I feel the same way, and I'm not sure you noticed that I just address that in a different way. Instead of fast character advancement, I start PCs better off than RAW. Humans PCs, for example, start off with 12D in starting skill dice. That way PCs are better from Day One in the campaign. I've consolidated skills too, so skill dice/pips have on average more 'bang for your buck' in my game than RAW. PCs in my game are far above mediocrity, and that's even with improving average human stats.


That is certainly another great option.

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I don't know if it is splitting hairs but I disagree with some of what you are saying here. CPs used per this house rule are very much spent. The immediate bonus happens once and the player cannot recover the CPs, but instead they are applied toward advancing the skill and are just place holders until the rest of the CPs needed are used to increase the skill through normal skill advancement between games or by using this house rule. Either way, the CPs are spent.

Whill wrote:
It's not splitting hairs. There is a stark difference, so it looks like you do not understand me. By "spent" I mean completely gone, providing no more benefit ever. When your players use a CP to boost a roll, the CPs are only "spent" as far as boosting rolls. They are NOT completely spent yet because they still provide the same mathematical benefit that they do when not boosting rolls in-play. The CPs boosting rolls provide one benefit, and then they are banked towards providing a second, different benefit.


I see them as spent because the one time bonus is used and they are permanently assigned toward increasing the relevant skill. I am not sure why anything else matters as the fate of the CP is sealed and the benefit, both short- and long-term is permanent, even if the skill has not jumped up to the next pip yet.

And just because philosophical debate is fun...

Whill wrote:
By "spent" I mean completely gone, providing no more benefit ever.


This seems to be an unnecessarly strict definition of the term and I am not sure what it clarifies. Based on this definition, the only time CPs are truly spent is when a character dies. After all, a character's skills are the culmination of benefits from their attributes, starting skill dice, and all the Character Points used to increase those skills giving the ongoing benefit until they can no longer be used.


Whill wrote:
And I addressed the other possibility for spending CPs to advanced skills, training for skills not used in adventures. I get that your house rule can't help PCs with training, only experience for things they do. But do you have PCs training to improve a skill several pips/dice without the PC ever having the opportunity to use the skill in adventures a lot? I don't. In my campaigns, PCs tend to have opportunities to gain experience for things they want to get better at, so they spend their CPs to improve skills based on experience (successful use of the skill in an adventure) and not have a need to train a lot in between adventures.


I do allow advancing skills between games sessions whether the skills were used or not. The limit of one advance is what reflects this adequately enough for me. My game sessions often end with days, weeks, or sometimes months of game time between session, giving the characters amply time do do some training of anything during their spare time. Why wouldn't they be able to is the question I would ask in return?

Whill wrote:
But even with a need for training, this house rule allows you to get two benefits for each CP spent boosting a roll, while only one benefit for improving skills the RAW way. This is why it doesn't work for me. I worded my responses as such. I am not criticizing you, or any other GM for using this rule. If this works for you, great. Thanks for sharing it and explaining it.


I understand and do not take it as criticism, just a difference of personal preference and style. As long as the GM establishes the rules and expectations to the players, they know how it works and can get on to their adventures. I do think it is more difficult for GMs who also play though... I know I have to shut my trap when I am playing my character and just act as if I don't notice when the GM deviates from the RAW because that is his option as the GM.

Thanks for all the discussion!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:23 am    Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I see them as spent because the one time bonus is used and they are permanently assigned toward increasing the relevant skill. I am not sure why anything else matters as the fate of the CP is sealed and the benefit, both short- and long-term is permanent, even if the skill has not jumped up to the next pip yet.

And just because philosophical debate is fun...

Whill wrote:
By "spent" I mean completely gone, providing no more benefit ever.

This seems to be an unnecessarly strict definition of the term and I am not sure what it clarifies. Based on this definition, the only time CPs are truly spent is when a character dies. After all, a character's skills are the culmination of benefits from their attributes, starting skill dice, and all the Character Points used to increase those skills giving the ongoing benefit until they can no longer be used.

Philosophical debate is fun? It really seems like you are trolling me. But I'm going to assume you aren't and this really needs explained. I just can't understand how there could be this much confusion about RAW or my comments, because you acknowledged from the beginning that this is a house rule, which means you understand that your rule is different from RAW, so it should be clear how your rule is different from RAW. If you truly do not understand RAW, remember that it is a forum guideline here to understand RAW before proposing house rules to change it.


RAW: CPs are a currency earned by PCs for adventuring. The currency can be spent on only two things (below). After either thing is purchased, the CPs themselves are gone for good, spent. Yes, the PC can earn more CPs, but those are different CPs.

(1) CPs can be spent to improve character stats in-between adventures. In trade, there is a permanent increase in character stats. The most common stat improved is a skill of the character. The player can choose skills used successfully at least once during an adventure (experience), or the PC can train with another character (training), but either way, the CPs are exchanged for the stat improvement at the appropriate rate determined by the rules.
(2) CPs can boost rolls in-play, providing the one-time benefit of one bonus wild die to a single roll for each CP spent.

Logically, there is some degree of balance between these RAW options, because (1) CPs spent to improve stats are no longer available to boost rolls, and (2) CPs spent to boost rolls are no longer available to improve stats.


Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I disagree with some of what you are saying here.

The above is not opinion. It is not something disagreeable. It is all 100% objective fact about RAW.

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
This seems to be an unnecessarly strict definition of the term

It is neither unnecessary or strict. I used terms 100% correctly, exactly what they mean. There is zero subjective "philosophy" above. Facts are not debatable.


A matter of subjective opinion: It is debatable just how equal those two RAW options are.


Dr. Bidlo wrote:
and I am not sure what it clarifies.

Look at the RAW I shared above again. Your house rule keeps the #1 option for improving skills the same, but then tacks the first option on the second option, for skills used in adventures. The CPs that in RAW would be spent forever are banked towards a future skill improvement.

Regardless of the degree of equality between these two options, a 100% objective fact about your house rule is that something 100% equal in value to the first option was added to the second option. Some symbolic logic...

RAW = X OR Y
Your rule = X OR Y+|X|

That means that in your house rule, the second option includes the full value of the first plus the original benefit.


Subjective opinions: This doesn't work for me, and maybe other GMs. My explanation for why it doesn't work for me is 100% valid for me.
This does work for you and maybe other GMs, and that is valid for you.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I am not sure what it clarifies...
Dr. Bidlo wrote:
My game sessions often end with days, weeks, or sometimes months of game time between session, giving the characters amply time do do some training of anything during their spare time.

Real world passage of time and in-universe passage of time in the campaign are two different things. How many movies have sequels that come out years apart and the next movie picks up where the first one leaves off? How many TV season cliffhangers continue months later from the very exact second in the story when the previous season ended. If you intentionally enforce that the same amount of time passes in-universe in between adventures that went by in the real world in between game sessions, that is your requirement. I don't make any effort to sync up the times. In my game, the passage of time in-universe is completely based on the needs of the story, whether it ends up being faster or slower than real world time...

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
Why wouldn't they be able to is the question I would ask in return?

I never said anything remotely close to PCs not being able to spend time training in between adventures. I merely said, in my game, PCs tend to get opportunities to use skills that they want to improve (experience). Which means, your house rule's CPs Option 1 would have very little value in my game, because they would largely spend CPs to boost rolls and improve those same skills (experience).

My way feels more natural than if my adventures would artificially delay some skills from ever being needed in the game until the PCs have trained up to a certain point before reasons to use those skills first appear in the campaign. Why would a player bother training in piloting capital ships if they never have to do that in their adventures?

In Session Zero we discuss character roles and character arcs for each PC, both as a group and in GM/player one-on-one. We co-create all PCs so we know what the character is good at starting out, what the player wants the PC to do, and how the player would like to see the character grow. I take that into account when I write the adventures. For skills they want to improve, of course, the challenge level starts out lower and increases and their skills increase.

Training does still happen and sometimes there is plenty of time to train in between adventures. I usually even try to contrive training time into the campaign narrative when a player wants his character to train on some skill they didn't happen to use in the last adventure. But it doesn't have to happen that often because PCs in my game tend to have occasions to use skills they want to improve, because skills they want to improve at are things they want their character to be doing in the first place.

So in my game, skills are improved from experience more than from training, but the RAW CP Option 1 is still valuable for both because skills do not automatically improve from burning CPs in-play.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:

Whill wrote:
By "spent" I mean completely gone, providing no more benefit ever.


This seems to be an unnecessarly strict definition of the term and I am not sure what it clarifies. Based on this definition, the only time CPs are truly spent is when a character dies. After all, a character's skills are the culmination of benefits from their attributes, starting skill dice, and all the Character Points used to increase those skills giving the ongoing benefit until they can no longer be used.


Dr. Bidlo, I don't think that Whill's definition is anything but a normal understanding of the word.

Let's assume I go into a store and hand the teller a dollar for a pack of gum (let's assume that it costs exactly 1 dollar and there is no tax).

That dollar is thus now "spent". It is gone, and is no longer mine. If I then tell the teller that I would like to also get a candy bar with it, she would inform me that it is already "spent" and can no longer be used. I would need to bring another dollar (CP) for this next transaction.

I'm not at all criticizing your double-use of CPs, btw. If it works for you and your group, then more power to you. But your house rule is effectively a "double-dip" with each use of a CP spent, no matter how you try to parse it.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
So in essence, they get a double dip from spending CP in game, vice waiting till the end to spend them to increase stats?
DougRed4 wrote:
But your house rule is effectively a "double-dip" with each use of a CP spent, no matter how you try to parse it.

"Double-dip" captures part of my point rather well.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
Dr. Bidlo wrote:

Whill wrote:
By "spent" I mean completely gone, providing no more benefit ever.


This seems to be an unnecessarly strict definition of the term and I am not sure what it clarifies. Based on this definition, the only time CPs are truly spent is when a character dies. After all, a character's skills are the culmination of benefits from their attributes, starting skill dice, and all the Character Points used to increase those skills giving the ongoing benefit until they can no longer be used.


Dr. Bidlo, I don't think that Whill's definition is anything but a normal understanding of the word.

Let's assume I go into a store and hand the teller a dollar for a pack of gum (let's assume that it costs exactly 1 dollar and there is no tax).

That dollar is thus now "spent". It is gone, and is no longer mine. If I then tell the teller that I would like to also get a candy bar with it, she would inform me that it is already "spent" and can no longer be used. I would need to bring another dollar (CP) for this next transaction.


Great, I agree with you 100%. And let's look at another scenario. You buy a coffee and get two punches on a customer loyalty card. When you get 20 punches, you get a free coffee. After you buy your coffee and you have your card with fewer than 20 punches, is your money spent? I would say yes, but this is where I disagreed with Whill:

Whill wrote:
But with this house rule, using them for a temporary bonus doesn't actually spend the CPs, because they still go towards improving skills. Since players can control which skill rolls they spend CPs on, they can control which skills eventually get improved. With this rule, it actually wouldn't make sense for players to hold any CPs back to improve skills the normal way, because if they get the temporary bonus the points still go towards buying the skill improvement anyway. Hopefully your players have all figured this out, and don't bother improving skills the normal way. If some players are boosting rolls more than the others, then they are getting more of an advantage.


That is where I said his definition of spent was too strict. That was the point I was making. Does that make sense?

DougRed4 wrote:
I'm not at all criticizing your double-use of CPs, btw. If it works for you and your group, then more power to you. But your house rule is effectively a "double-dip" with each use of a CP spent, no matter how you try to parse it.


I fully acknowledge this is a "double dip" house rule. I never denied it was. I also appreciate that many people may not like it for that reason. I was just sharing on the house rules forum.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Philosophical debate is fun?


Yes I think so. That is a lot of what is done on this forum and based on the years of discussion threads it looks like most people here enjoy discussion and debate (not with a negative connotation).


Whill wrote:
lt really seems like you are trolling me. But I'm going to assume you aren't and this really needs explained. I just can't understand how there could be this much confusion about RAW or my comments, because you acknowledged from the beginning that this is a house rule, which means you understand that your rule is different from RAW, so it should be clear how your rule is different from RAW. If you truly do not understand RAW, remember that it is a forum guideline here to understand RAW before proposing house rules to change it.


I share your sentiments as well. However I know you are not trolling me so there just truly is a miscommunication and this specific item seems almost too tangled to get through. Ultimately, I believe you understand my house rule but you do not agree with it, which is perfectly acceptable.

Hopefully it is clear in my text that I was not intending to be malicious or even snarky with my comments, but if it did appear that way, I am sorry.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In my experience, not questioning published stats (or official rules) can possibly be either a symptom of or lead to a RAW supremacist view, which is very problematic for a community of tinkerers. That is why RAW supremacy is forbidden by the forum guidelines here. You didn't, but if anyone ever tells me the author who wrote the official stats was perfect and couldn't possibly have gotten it wrong, that send up a red flag. In my experience, a GM is almost always better (re)statting out things for their own game than game authors were, and I have had multiple respected professional authors of this game publicly agree with me on that sentiment. ALL official game rules and stats should be viewed by GMs as merely suggestions.

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
Besides, that was just a catalyst to get me thinking about how the use of Character Points could better reflect learning through experience.

I agree. Ultimately, it doesn't matter how you came to the idea, so the house rule idea's worth to you or other GMs is irrelevant to how you arrived at it. I will reply to the rule itself below.


Quote trimmed to conserve finite resources Smile

I absolutely agree that MANY of the stats provided by WEG are nearly trash, which is why I almost exclusively use updated stats by those such as CRMcNeill and others on this site. A Nebulon B has 12 laser cannons causing 2D Starfighter scale damage... REALLY???

I hear your points, but good 'Ole Chewy certainly was the example who inspired me and a friend of mine to ask how that could be. Despite what you said, I always looked at the characters from the movies as the original player characters and the rest of us just got to play other lesser, but still amazing and Heroic characters and, just on a smaller scale.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo

I think you have a pretty cool house rule here. It addresses some the issues I've grappled with myself in my games.

I personally dislike it when players constantly spend CPs toward periphery skills that seem irrelevant, just because they are low but might be useful someday down the line. Like when they have been in several death-defying blaster fights, that they only squeaked through by burning CPs (luck).

Then when it eventually comes time to spend a couple CPs on improvement, not a care is given to improving the skill that they just needed. Instead it goes to whatever happens to be lowest (and thus cheapest to improve) regardless if they have used it in several games. Moreover they avoid using the low skill because it *IS* low and not as useful. Also this is a byproduct of having to always hoard a few CPs to save themselves rather than invest them.

I tried to enforce the "If you want to improve the skill without a teacher, you have to use the skill in the last session." But I found this to be awkward and ham-fisted.

It makes sense to me that if you are using a low level skill and you are needing the CPs to make it work, the character is putting in EFFORT. Naturally they should be getting better at it.
When the skill is eventually high, they start succeeding in their rolls WITHOUT needing the CP boost, so they will tend to save them to use elsewhere they are needed.

When I started playing the Skyrim videogame, I liked the idea that the skills you are using are the ones that improve so that the character grows into the role of what they DO.

I think this little bit of house-ruled book keeping achieves that feel quite well.

Is there an aspect of double-dipping on CPs? Well, sure there is. But I would rather have characters that are growing based on what they are doing than hoarding their CPs, blowing them to save their skins and then have little left to show for it; they are right back to where they started from and achieve no real advancement. They might literally have been through the fight of their lives and have ended learning nothing. (skill wise)

The alternative is to husband CPs and risk spending them on skills a bit at a time, while keeping a strategic reserve of luck (CPs) which in my experience is how the RAW typically works in practice. Then it's a metagame of resource management, under which I usually caution my players "You should always keep a few CPs on hand...don't spend them all...you might need to save your bacon."

I for one would rather have the double-dip effect, and be a bit more frugal with CP awards in order to have the effect of growing the character based on what they do.

Developing skills that they don't use, I suppose I'd default to the RAW way. this is improvement (off camera).

I don't feel it would be unfair to players. In fact it would encourage characters who have lower skills to get more involved, because the reward would be potentially improving that low skill.

As a modification to the house rule, I would think about a possibility of having the CPs just vanish with no benefit as well.

Perhaps something like, if you use the CPs to assist in the roll and succeed then you mark down progress towards skill advancement. But if you use CPs to assist and the roll still fails, then no points are accrued toward advancement.

I'm not sure though, because it's a matter of reality that we tend to learn more from our failures than our successes.

The closest thing I've had to your house rule is in adding 'Talents and Techniques' to the game; basically D&D style feats. Little bonus effects you can get from your skills. The basic rule being that anyone can try to get one of the effects by rolling the appropriate skill, succeeding, and spending a CP.

Once you succeed a number of times in a row (spending a CP each time) then you have mastered it and can do it at will without having to spend anything.
A failed attempt before getting the required number-in-a-row puts the character back to the start again. This has the effect that characters who have a high skill tend to be the ones who can master difficult tricks, stunts, talents and techniques.

I found this gave character growth and advancement based on what they DO, rather than just spending a bunch of CPs to 'buy' a bonus.
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