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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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 Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:23 am Post subject: House rules for Character Points and in game use |
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Many years ago, I saw Chewbacca's stats from Return of the Jedi and he had a skill in the Walker Operation: AT-ST specialization. I remember thinking it made no sense because Chewie would have not increased this skill before the assault on the forest moon of Endor and it didn't make any sense that he would have used Character Pounts AFTER to increase that skill. The only thing that made sense to me was that he learned WHILE driving the AT-ST.
So, I decided that my players could use Character Points during a game as per the RAW, but each Character Point spent for a skill or specialization during the game also applied to increasing that skill. So if a player with a 5D Blaster skill uses two Character Points to hit a target, the player gets the immediate benefit AND the character has 2 CP toward increasing the Blaster skill to 5D+1. Note that CP's spend on Strength to resist damage are lost and not applied to the attribute.
I have been using this house rule since the mid-nineties and my players have loved it. It just makes sense to me an encourages the players to use the skills they want to increase. I expect many will disagree with this idea, but some may like it as much as I have, so I figured I would share it. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:07 am Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | Many years ago, I saw Chewbacca's stats from Return of the Jedi and he had a skill in the Walker Operation: AT-ST specialization. I remember thinking it made no sense because Chewie would have not increased this skill before the assault on the forest moon of Endor and it didn't make any sense that he would have used Character Pounts AFTER to increase that skill. |
Chewbacca is an NPC, and NPCs stats are typically written as based on the character's experiences. Chewbacca didn't ever have a player that decided to improve the skill.
| Quote: | | The only thing that made sense to me was that he learned WHILE driving the AT-ST. |
Another possibility is that his stats may be wrong. Stats can aways be rewritten by the GM if Chewbacca would ever appear in the GM's game and it would matter. Making rules to account for stats is the cart leading the horse, no?
| Quote: | | So, I decided that my players could use Character Points during a game as per the RAW, but each Character Point spent for a skill or specialization during the game also applied to increasing that skill. So if a player with a 5D Blaster skill uses two Character Points to hit a target, the player gets the immediate benefit AND the character has 2 CP toward increasing the Blaster skill to 5D+1. Note that CP's spend on Strength to resist damage are lost and not applied to the attribute. |
Do you mean that if a player decides to take the deal and improve a skill they are temporally boosting with CPs, they have to spend the remaining CPs needed to improve it right them and there, instead of waiting until in between adventures to improve the skill?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16173
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Something I've proposed in the past is a Familiarity Bonus, awarded by GMs when a player makes use of a specific ship, vehicle or piece of equipment. Say a character uses his Walker Operation skill (or even just his Mechanical Attribute) several times to pilot an AT-ST in the course of a session. At the end of that session, I would award the PC a small bonus (likely +1) specifically to the specialization Walker Operation: AT-ST, just to represent the fact that the character picked up a few pointers about how to operate that particular model of walker in the course of his "on-the-job training."
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:33 am Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use |
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| Whill wrote: | | Do you mean that if a player decides to take the deal and improve a skill they are temporally boosting with CPs, they have to spend the remaining CPs needed to improve it right them and there, instead of waiting until in between adventures to improve the skill? |
Not quite. CPs spent during a game are tracked and when the required number is spent, the skill goes up. A character who starts with a 2D blaster skill can learn really quick under combat conditions as long as the player has the CP's to expend. Players are limited to increasing skills only once between games but thete is limit during the games. That is just how we have been playing it for a long time and as an adult who can only play once a month, if that, I am more interested in telling a good story and letting the players be exceptional. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14030
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:58 am Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | Many years ago, I saw Chewbacca's stats from Return of the Jedi and he had a skill in the Walker Operation: AT-ST specialization. I remember thinking it made no sense because Chewie would have not increased this skill before the assault on the forest moon of Endor and it didn't make any sense that he would have used Character Pounts AFTER to increase that skill. The only thing that made sense to me was that he learned WHILE driving the AT-ST.
So, I decided that my players could use Character Points during a game as per the RAW, but each Character Point spent for a skill or specialization during the game also applied to increasing that skill. So if a player with a 5D Blaster skill uses two Character Points to hit a target, the player gets the immediate benefit AND the character has 2 CP toward increasing the Blaster skill to 5D+1. Note that CP's spend on Strength to resist damage are lost and not applied to the attribute.
I have been using this house rule since the mid-nineties and my players have loved it. It just makes sense to me an encourages the players to use the skills they want to increase. I expect many will disagree with this idea, but some may like it as much as I have, so I figured I would share it. |
So in essence, they get a double dip from spending CP in game, vice waiting till the end to spend them to increase stats?
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So in essence, they get a double dip from spending CP in game, vice waiting till the end to spend them to increase stats? |
Yes, but only for skills used during the game. If a character wants to increase their Starship Gunnery skill but it was not used during the game, they can only do it the normal way per the RAW.
If a character with a Blaster skill of 5D uses three CPs during the game to boost Blaster rolls, the character may spend an additional two CPs between games to increase the skill to 5D+1. Or they can hold on to their CPs and spend more during the next game when they use their Blaster skill. I have added a special "Advance" column next to the skill dice column to keep track. For years we just put tick marks next to the skill to help us keep track. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | A character who starts with a 2D blaster skill can learn really quick under combat conditions as long as the player has the CP's to expend. Players are limited to increasing skills only once between games but thete is limit during the games. |
Increasing a skill only one pip in between adventures is RAW, so no change there.
| Quote: | | That is just how we have been playing it for a long time and as an adult who can only play once a month, if that, I am more interested in telling a good story and letting the players be exceptional. |
I get that. Character advancement is a bit slow in my game so I compensate by starting PCs off more advanced than RAW (for humans and many non-broken alien species, anyway). PCs are already exceptional in the universe but in my game they are more exceptional right off the bat.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14030
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | So in essence, they get a double dip from spending CP in game, vice waiting till the end to spend them to increase stats? |
Yes, but only for skills used during the game. If a character wants to increase their Starship Gunnery skill but it was not used during the game, they can only do it the normal way per the RAW.
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That kind of makes it sound worse, as the ones they've already increased, tend to be the ones they use the most in game..
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use |
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| garhkal wrote: | | That kind of makes it sound worse, as the ones they've already increased, tend to be the ones they use the most in game.. |
I am not sure how this constitutes 'worse'. After all, doesn't it make sense you would get better at a skill you use a lot? It has worked very well for a long time so I shared it. It is not for everyone and I get that. I have not seen any skills getting way out of whack using this house rule after decades of use. Besides, if players think they can always blast and dodge their way out of every situation, they if in for a nasty surprise... |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | CPs spent during a game are tracked and when the required number is spent, the skill goes up. |
I think I see. So CPs burned for the temporary bonus in-play are tracked for every skill, and then when a player have burned the number of CPs equal to the number needed to increase the skill by "one pip" according to the skill improvement rules, the skill goes up?
What if the player decides to spend the CPs the normal way to improve the skill in the mean time? Are the tracked CPs for burning lost and the player starts over on that track for the skill (towards the now higher next pip), or are the burned CPs always tracked so that eventually they will improve the skill without having to spend the CPs?
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
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Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:38 am Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use |
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| Whill wrote: | | Another possibility is that his stats may be wrong. Stats can aways be rewritten by the GM if Chewbacca would ever appear in the GM's game and it would matter. Making rules to account for stats is the cart leading the horse, no? |
I don't think so. We are always trying to make sense of the WEG rules and apply them logically, so I am not sure why this is any different. Why just assume Chewy's stats are wrong to explain away something?
Besides, that was just a catalyst to get me thinking about how the use of Character Points could better reflect learning through experience. |
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 439
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:44 am Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use |
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| Whill wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | CPs spent during a game are tracked and when the required number is spent, the skill goes up. |
I think I see. So CPs burned for the temporary bonus in-play are tracked for every skill, and then when a player have burned the number of CPs equal to the number needed to increase the skill by "one pip" according to the skill improvement rules, the skill goes up? |
Yes, I believe that's it.
| Whill wrote: | | What if the player decides to spend the CPs the normal way to improve the skill in the mean time? Are the tracked CPs for burning lost and the player starts over on that track for the skill (towards the now higher next pip), or are the burned CPs always tracked so that eventually they will improve the skill without having to spend the CPs? |
No, tracked or banked CPs are never lost. It doesn't matter whether the skill is increased in-game by using the CPs for the skill bonus or between games. If a character ends the game with two CP banked toward advancing a skill, it will cost two less to increase that skill between games. Does that make sense? |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:54 am Post subject: Re: House rules for Character Points and in game use |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | That kind of makes it sound worse, as the ones they've already increased, tend to be the ones they use the most in game.. |
I am not sure how this constitutes 'worse'. After all, doesn't it make sense you would get better at a skill you use a lot? It has worked very well for a long time so I shared it. It is not for everyone and I get that. I have not seen any skills getting way out of whack using this house rule after decades of use. Besides, if players think they can always blast and dodge their way out of every situation, they if in for a nasty surprise... |
To a certain limit maybe..
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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I think your proposed way of doing this makes a lot of sense, Dr. Bidlo. It's a bit more bookkeeping than I care for, but I like it!
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Another possibility is that his stats may be wrong. Stats can aways be rewritten by the GM if Chewbacca would ever appear in the GM's game and it would matter. Making rules to account for stats is the cart leading the horse, no? |
I don't think so. We are always trying to make sense of the WEG rules and apply them logically, so I am not sure why this is any different. |
Part of 'making sense' of Chewie's stats is acknowledging that Chewbacca is an NPC, and NPCs stats are typically written as based on the character's experiences. 'Logically,' Chewbacca didn't ever have a human player that decided to improve the skill as in your premise for this house rule. Chewbacca's stats at any given point were merely poofed into existence because Chewbacca never had a player and Chewbacca is not a PC.
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | Why just assume Chewy's stats are wrong to explain away something? |
Well, I didn't say we should assume the stats are definitely wrong, but rather that it is a possibility to consider.
Why should we consider it? Because it was an unfortunately common occurrence. The body of evidence clearly indicates that WEG had no game stats editor. The only editing emphasis published stats got was on being formatted correctly, but no one judged the content of the stats or their consistency with the rest of the game line. For example, Greedo the twerp, was statted out as an 18D attribute PC-level character. A 18D mook! Absurd! A lot of the game writers are more professional writers than gamers, and writing RPGs was just a gig for them. Stats in this game are wildly inconsistent with each other.
Why is this important? We generally shouldn't base game mechanics on stats. The stats should have been written to conform to the game mechanics, and the game writers were inconsistently qualified at interpretation of game mechanics, causing some stats to suffer inconsistencies. (The game mechanics aren't perfect either, but that is another issue and you don't seem to have any issue with house-ruling the game.)
In my experience, not questioning published stats (or official rules) can possibly be either a symptom of or lead to a RAW supremacist view, which is very problematic for a community of tinkerers. That is why RAW supremacy is forbidden by the forum guidelines here. You didn't, but if anyone ever tells me the author who wrote the official stats was perfect and couldn't possibly have gotten it wrong, that send up a red flag. In my experience, a GM is almost always better (re)statting out things for their own game than game authors were, and I have had multiple respected professional authors of this game publicly agree with me on that sentiment. ALL official game rules and stats should be viewed by GMs as merely suggestions.
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | Besides, that was just a catalyst to get me thinking about how the use of Character Points could better reflect learning through experience. |
I agree. Ultimately, it doesn't matter how you came to the idea, so the house rule idea's worth to you or other GMs is irrelevant to how you arrived at it. I will reply to the rule itself below.
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