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Breaking Up Move Actions
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Concurrent Actions make it easier for power gamers and evil GMs to abuse the system. Initiative is a construct to sequence actions in a round, and it includes a healthy amount of randomness to allow for higher attribute/skilled characters to sometimes lose initiative, which garhkal was hitting at.

Without going into a drawn-out reply, all I'll say is that I'm not planning on getting rid of Initiative, and there is still a chance for a character with a high Blaster skill to lose it. All I'm saying is that it makes sense for a very skilled character to be able to "cut in line" by paying an appropriate penalty. This counts double in a house rule system like the one I'm envisioning where Dodge is hugely nerfed in order to reflect the action we see on screen.

Here's a couple short videos short videos on the subject. Granted, people like Bob Murden and Jerry Miculek are outliers, but they do prove it's possible for a human being to get off multiple shots in what is either the same action or effectively indistinguishable from it.

W/r/t movement, I like how CAPs allow characters to double up on both Movement and other actions (like shooting on the move) while appropriately penalizing them.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gah, discussions like this make me miss Hackmaster initiative (though I realize it would be impractical for SW without significant change to one or the other). Aces & Eights might work better, but I'm not familiar with it.

A brief: Hackmaster does not have rounds, it has seconds. Weapons have a given speed... they can take an action every X seconds. Your "initiative" is only when you can first act, and is determined by your awareness of the threat. Between your actions, you can move, but defensive movement when you're engaged in melee can have penalties.

An example of initiative, surprise, and speed, which is kinda long, and only worth checking out if you want to. (page references refer to the main Player's Handbook, not the free Basic version I linked above)
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAW has surprise, in which the surprised side automatically loses initiative and they cannot react to the first segment of attacks. And good point about weapon speed. Not all weapons may allow such a quick succession of actions.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Here's a couple short videos short videos on the subject. Granted, people like Bob Murden and Jerry Miculek are outliers, but they do prove it's possible for a human being to get off multiple shots in what is either the same action or effectively indistinguishable from it.

I've watched those videos before. They are fast dudes, but these aren't combat situations where they are reacting to others attacking them, which is more than just fast succession of actions. And these guys couldn't do that if the tech wasn't capable of it, so it is not like you can apply this to all situations.

I've never argued it wasn't humanly possible anyway. My main point is that from a human player perspective, the full Concurrent Actions concept takes more away from gameplay than it adds. It's not necessary to have the realism of these outliers to the game. The option of just choosing to just take on more MAPs whenever you want just to move actions forward is close enough to Haste, which from experience was a 'dark time' for the game.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
...Concurrent Actions make it easier for power gamers and evil GMs to abuse the system. Initiative is a construct to sequence actions in a round, and it includes a healthy amount of randomness to allow for higher attribute/skilled characters to sometimes lose initiative, which garhkal was hitting at...

Without going into a drawn-out reply, all I'll say is that I'm not planning on getting rid of Initiative, and there is still a chance for a character with a high Blaster skill to lose it. All I'm saying is that it makes sense for a very skilled character to be able to "cut in line" by paying an appropriate penalty. This counts double in a house rule system like the one I'm envisioning where Dodge is hugely nerfed in order to reflect the action we see on screen.

I went a different direction to to reflect the action we see on screen. I allow dodging to work mechanically as it does in the R&E game, which from 25 years of experience works well, but I've reinterpreted dodging to also include luck so it may not always manifest as 'zigging and zagging'.

An option to have characters "cut in line" that I would like better would be to tie the option to the initiative roll. If the character on a side rolls double the initiative of any character on the other side, the GM tells the player and to take advantage of it they must declare at least two actions for the round. Then they get two actions first instead of one. Further, you could have it where to activate it they have to spend an extra MAP as in the concurrent action concept, or maybe you can just calculate MAPs normally. If the initiative winner's roll is triple the highest roll on the other side, they can get three actions before the other side can act, and so on.

The only way I can see that working is for every character to have their own initiative rolls, which would get tedious so a lot of GMs wouldn't do. But at least this does require random luck of the initiative dice for the option to open it up, so it can't just be something that players choose to do in every combat sequence, which is what I've seen before when they can. And those real life fast-shot humans have more than just a high skill with shooting the weapons, they have an inherent ability to act quickly, which in the game is reflected by Initiative. I don't see characters having a high blaster skill as meaning they always can shoot multiple times before anyone else gets a shot, but those videos do support adding Dexterity as a factor of Initiative like I have.

CRMcNeill wrote:
W/r/t movement, I like how CAPs allow characters to double up on both Movement and other actions (like shooting on the move) while appropriately penalizing them.

With respect to movement, I have that now, and they are MAPped as normal. The only difference from RAW is spreading the movement out over the course of round and some other actions, instead of putting the round's entire movement of each character into the time of a single action in a single segment.
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For each action declared the player may move up to 10 meters. While doing so the GM may allow a skill check that makes sense: jump a counter, shoot a blaster, open a door, flying kick an opponent, etc. A player could not use their datapad for researching a project, perform a repair, or any other action the GM deems requires focus or not possible while moving.

A player must declare at the beginning of their declaration phase they are going all-out movement. This allows the player to move 10 meters on Action 1, Action 2, Action 3 and Action 4, but can perform no other actions.

A player may move up to 5 meters as a action that does not incur a MAP.

As a free action a character can end their movement prone. This usually gives the player 1/4 to 1/2 cover from ranged weapons. Getting up from a prone position is a move action.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

The only way I can see that working is for every character to have their own initiative rolls, which would get tedious so a lot of GMs wouldn't do. But at least this does require random luck of the initiative dice for the option to open it up, so it can't just be something that players choose to do in every combat sequence, which is what I've seen before when they can. And those real life fast-shot humans have more than just a high skill with shooting the weapons, they have an inherent ability to act quickly, which in the game is reflected by Initiative. I don't see characters having a high blaster skill as meaning they always can shoot multiple times before anyone else gets a shot, but those videos do support adding Dexterity as a factor of Initiative like I have.


If the groups small enough, and the enemies they fight, are small enough, i could see doing individual initiative, but most parties i've played with/ran for, prefer group initiative..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might be interesting to use individual initiative unless the group is being Coordinated, on the basis of a successful Command roll.

In fact, that deserves a separate thread.
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another option for movement, instead of each 10 meter move taking an action that gives a MAP, how about players at the time of action declaration they state their speed and per usual the entire move "action" counts as a single action but for actual movement its broken up into 1-10 meter grouping per action.

Example: Character declares they are moving at High Speed (move x3, 3 actions) and another action (probably shooting his blaster while running for cover). This counts as two actions for calculating MAPs but is actually four actions. The player per normal can take his actions in whatever order they wish.

This has the benefit of breaking up movement into a structured form that addressed some fundamental issues with the current system. It also keeps down on the MAPs for movement, which is more in keeping with RAW. I think this is a good middle ground. I will have to try this one of my games.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of allowing a character to declare both how far they want to move that round and how many actions they want to take to do it, like wanting to cover 10 meters at a sprint (one action) or at a walking pace (four actions). The faster one will be more difficult, but will limit the amount of time the character spends out in the open.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
Another option for movement, instead of each 10 meter move taking an action that gives a MAP, how about players at the time of action declaration they state their speed and per usual the entire move "action" counts as a single action but for actual movement its broken up into 1-10 meter grouping per action.

Example: Character declares they are moving at High Speed (move x3, 3 actions) and another action (probably shooting his blaster while running for cover). This counts as two actions for calculating MAPs but is actually four actions. The player per normal can take his actions in whatever order they wish.

This has the benefit of breaking up movement into a structured form that addressed some fundamental issues with the current system. It also keeps down on the MAPs for movement, which is more in keeping with RAW. I think this is a good middle ground. I will have to try this one of my games.


How's about basing how far they go in one "Move action" to the species MOVE rating.. So one that has only a 7 move, can only move 7 meters per 'action', vs one that has a 12 move can do 12 meters an action
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
How's about basing how far they go in one "Move action" to the species MOVE rating.. So one that has only a 7 move, can only move 7 meters per 'action', vs one that has a 12 move can do 12 meters an action


This is a good point and I assumed 10m as the standard distance but it is not. There are other distances. I would still keep the rule as is but add in movement in place of 10 meter move so no one becomes confused. Awesome catch, thank you for sharing.
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