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Decelerating vs. Coasting
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I actually started with a much crunchier ionization system and now it is very short and only crunchier than RAW in that there is a 1d6 roll to determine minor effect. Other than that it is only tweaked from RAW and not more complicated.

While I see where you're going with this, I can also foresee problems with a GM having to keep track of two different levels of ionization once ion cannon attacks are involved. As in, if a ship takes 2D of Ionization damage from an Ion Cannon, but then takes a Controls Ionized result from a Laser Cannon, the GM has to keep track of which system gets the extra -1D of ionization. If you can keep track of that, then cool, but for others, I expect it will be simpler to only keep track of a single line of ionization penalties.

Quote:
And based on other discussions, unless you've changed on this too, shouldn't it be -1D to piloting checks and not maneuverability? This still penalizes pilots of ships with zero (or negative maneuverability). But it would equally penalize a pilot on movement rolls too, not just evasion.

Correct. This is still my position.

EDIT: Although I am rethinking my position on allowing ships to soak up to their Hull dice in Ionization penalties before reaching Controls Dead, as this effectively allows their Hull to resist Ion Damage twice (once on the initial Ionization roll and again by having more dice to play with when Ionization penalties are applied).
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I actually started with a much crunchier ionization system and now it is very short and only crunchier than RAW in that there is a 1d6 roll to determine minor effect. Other than that it is only tweaked from RAW and not more complicated.

While I see where you're going with this, I can also foresee problems with a GM having to keep track of two different levels of ionization once ion cannon attacks are involved. As in, if a ship takes 2D of Ionization damage from an Ion Cannon, but then takes a Controls Ionized result from a Laser Cannon, the GM has to keep track of which system gets the extra -1D of ionization. If you can keep track of that, then cool, but for others, I expect it will be simpler to only keep track of a single line of ionization penalties.

Yes, multiple ionization effects could be more to keep track off, but not for long since they each only effect the ship for the remainder of the round they occur and the following round. Making the effects random was part of my mission to make ionization less punitive. The same systems being effected with multiple dice simultaneously can quickly stack up against a ship. Spreading the penalties around to multiple systems lessens the odds of the same system getting hit bad. RAW is too harsh with each die of ionization affecting maneuverability, weapon fire control, and weapon damage. In my system, the same ship systems can all possibly be affected, but not all of them at once from the same damage result, except for one result (out of six) which includes piloting and weapon attack rolls both. A few ionization dice should not be worse than light damages. My system accomplishes making ionization appropriately less punitive than RAW, with hardly any more complication. It's a good trade off, and the randomization of minor effects was a necessary component in achieving it.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Although I am rethinking my position on allowing ships to soak up to their Hull dice in Ionization penalties before reaching Controls Dead, as this effectively allows their Hull to resist Ion Damage twice (once on the initial Ionization roll and again by having more dice to play with when Ionization penalties are applied).

I thought you already rethought your position on Hull and made it a flat 5D threshold for all ships. I thought you are where I got that idea from for my system.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
...It's a good trade off, and the randomization of minor effects was a necessary component in achieving it.

I shall think on it...

Quote:
I thought you already rethought your position on Hull and made it a flat 5D threshold for all ships. I thought you are where I got that idea from for my system.

IIRC, having a 5D threshold was connected to the rule where Ionization also capped Move Levels, so it had to get down to -5D in order to completely immobilize a ship. If I remove the Move Level capping, and just penalize Piloting rolls in order to reduce Move Level indirectly, then there's no need to do a -5D cap any more.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Quote:
I thought you already rethought your position on Hull and made it a flat 5D threshold for all ships. I thought you are where I got that idea from for my system.

IIRC, having a 5D threshold was connected to the rule where Ionization also capped Move Levels, so it had to get down to -5D in order to completely immobilize a ship. If I remove the Move Level capping, and just penalize Piloting rolls in order to reduce Move Level indirectly, then there's no need to do a -5D cap any more.

For me, using a universal 5D threshold for ionization accumulation causing 'controls frozen' was also part of the effort to make ionization less punitive. Most ships do not have 5D hull. And it is not like hull is completely removed from the equation, because it is still hull used to resist damage.

I chose 5D as the threshold mainly because my ion damage chart has a 4D max damage for a single attack, so the 5D threshold also prevents an especially damaging single ion cannon attack causing 'controls frozen'. It's still not too hard for multiple attacks to cause 'controls frozen'.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I chose 5D as the threshold mainly because my ion damage chart has a 4D max damage for a single attack, so the 5D threshold also prevents an especially damaging single ion cannon attack causing 'controls frozen'. It's still not too hard for multiple attacks to cause 'controls frozen'.

I don't see a real problem for a single attack going all the way to Controls Frozen if the roll goes high enough. I mean, the one time we see an Ion Cannon in action, it takes two hits to disable a Star Destroyer, but if you cap it at 4D, that means it would take the same two hits to disable a Corellian Corvette. Considering the disparity in size, I'm perfectly fine with a ship being disabled on a single hit if RNGeezus decrees it thus.

What I ended up doing was going with a chart that measured how badly Damaged the ship's systems were by how far into Controls Dead territory did the last hit go. I figure, once the ship is disabled, Ion Cannon can't have any further effect (on account of tripped breakers and the like) until the ship is up and running again.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've long had ships 'coast' once the pilot "takes their foot off the gas" and focuses on other things, and I've just had the ship continue on at the previous speed. Until they either accelerate or decelerate, that is.

In the vast majority of circumstances, a piloting roll isn't even necessary in RAW (for both Cautious and Cruising speeds). It's only when things are really crowded, like in the middle of a massive battle or in an asteroid field. So because of this, it's been common in my games - once the fighting starts - for pilots to ignore piloting and just to coast, unless they need to Starship Dodge. It often still costs one of their actions, but since they don't have to even make a skill roll, they just more or less ignore the ship's movement and focus on things like firing at the enemy. Of course, when they need to turn, or dodge, or move around something, they need to focus on piloting again.

I'd never thought of limiting how long they could coast. I think in most of my games something happens before even a couple of rounds, so it would rarely even come up.

As far as that section on Long-Distance Movement, even 10 minutes is way longer than any battle is going to last. So I don't think that's ever come up in my games. It would be really rare that a ship would redline their engines and scream along at All-Out. I'll also admit that I don't remember seeing this rule, either, so it's an interesting one if a ship is racing somewhere at High Speed (it does say that even this is "pushing" the starship for added speed).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:

As far as that section on Long-Distance Movement, even 10 minutes is way longer than any battle is going to last. So I don't think that's ever come up in my games. It would be really rare that a ship would redline their engines and scream along at All-Out. I'll also admit that I don't remember seeing this rule, either, so it's an interesting one if a ship is racing somewhere at High Speed (it does say that even this is "pushing" the starship for added speed).


Agreed. Since combat rounds are six seconds, TEN minutes would be ONE hundred rounds... I think i MAY have had a few combats hit 20 rounds of action, but MOST have been completed in 7 to 12 rounds at the most...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still, the fact that the rule is there at all means ships at those speeds aren't just coasting, and are actually having to exert some degree of strenuous effort to maintain that speed. It may not be realistic sci-fi, but it is the rules.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SO maybe there still IS some sort of gravity or resistance, slowing ships down..??
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
SO maybe there still IS some sort of gravity or resistance, slowing ships down..??

That's what we've been saying, that the ship's own inertial compensator provides the resistance that must be constantly accelerated against. The alternative of no inertial compensation is high speed space travel that is very unsafe for organic life (and would probably also have undue stress on the ship). It's a good explanation for RAW.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
SO maybe there still IS some sort of gravity or resistance, slowing ships down..??

That's what we've been saying, that the ship's own inertial compensator provides the resistance that must be constantly accelerated against. The alternative of no inertial compensation is high speed space travel that is very unsafe for organic life (and would probably also have undue stress on the ship). It's a good explanation for RAW.


I might also add internal artificial gravity as that drag.

Consider that, without an inertial compensator, you might get going to a decent velocity, get everyone set, then cut the compensator to let your velocity stabilize, then go into free-fall. (might not work that way for technobabble reasons, but I can see it).

If you want to keep internal gravity, though, you've got to keep dragging against that.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
I might also add internal artificial gravity as that drag.

Sure...

MrNexx wrote:
Consider that, without an inertial compensator...

If you want to keep internal gravity, though, you've got to keep dragging against that.

Between the two, inertial compensation is much more important than artificial gravity in a high speed ship. It's the difference between splat and ow.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it comes to the mount of inertia involved, 1 g of artificial gravity is a pittance compared to the hundreds or thousands of g's of thrust being generated by the ship. In fact, in the Honor Harrington series, where ships run almost exclusively off gravity drives, the artificial gravity on the ships is actually "shunted" sideways from the inertial compensator with dozens or hundreds of g's to spare. If anything, I'd say that this is the case with SWU ships as well, with backup artificial gravity kicking in if the inertial compensator isn't putting out enough energy to do the job on its own.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I was also inspired by your ion damage chart to have a minor temporary ion damage effect that reduces speed, but since these effects are not in effect beyond the round subsequent to the damage, I just made the rule that the max speed the following round is one less than the current speed. It makes sense that coasting takes more rounds than braking, but this was one of several different effects that all expire after the subsequent round, so the speed reduction has to occur on the next round. But I guess that effect can be thought as a forced braking. Multiple sequential effects of this could eventually stop a ship in my rules, but it is unlikely that same result would keep being rolled.

The other option would be to revert to the RAW where Ion Cannon don't affect engine speed, or just technobabble that the ionization causes the engines to function erratically, which is part of the aggregate of ionization penalties to Maneuverability. EDIT: We catch just a glimpse of the drives fickering out on the ISD at Hoth after it gets hit by the ion cannon, so that fits with the theory, too.

Just realized the problem with this. If ionization can shut a ship down, at which point the ship is simply coasting on whatever velocity it already had, then there is nothing stopping a ship from doing the exact same thing on purpose, of accelerating up to All-Out and cutting the power to the acceleration compensator and coasting from there. So there needs to be some form of system limitation or consequence that prevents this from happening.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Just realized the problem with this. If ionization can shut a ship down, at which point the ship is simply coasting on whatever velocity it already had, then there is nothing stopping a ship from doing the exact same thing on purpose, of accelerating up to All-Out and cutting the power to the acceleration compensator and coasting from there. So there needs to be some form of system limitation or consequence that prevents this from happening.

I don't see any problems. There is something stopping a ship from coasting at a constant speed without inertial compensation – The crew and passengers of the ship are in danger of something bad happening. Going that fast, if anything affects the speed or direction of the ship even slightly, it could be drastic for the living beings on the ship, and even the ship itself, without inertial compensation. A slight vector change could be catastrophic. That is a major consequence. If they are drifting into empty space and there is no danger, or it is a low risk they are willing to take, then I have no problem with them coasting on Newton and not using fuel. I feel it is too risky to do it that much or often. Physics make space travel extremely dangerous, and physics-suppressing inertial compensation is what makes high speed space travel (relatively) safe.
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