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garhkal
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 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: |
My luck attribute ("I call it luck...") is designed to do this.
(it is a source of extra bonus dice they can use in the session - they refill each session - so it is kind or like a renewable character point source). |
Is there a limit to how much dice they can add with luck? Can luck be raised? Can it run out?
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pakman
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | pakman wrote: |
My luck attribute ("I call it luck...") is designed to do this.
(it is a source of extra bonus dice they can use in the session - they refill each session - so it is kind or like a renewable character point source). |
Is there a limit to how much dice they can add with luck? Can luck be raised? Can it run out? |
Great questions!
(remind me to just send my full rules to you folks when I am done formatting and tweking).
Luck, is an attribute, like any other.
Strength, Knowledge, etc. It is a
From my draft system overview
• Luck: Non-force sensitive characters have a Luck attribute they can use in gameplay. Star Wars is filled with amazing cinematic moments where fortune seems to be on the side of these characters – and of course, they call it Luck…
from my character creation section
In the seventh Attribute, characters can have two options: Force or Luck. Force is chosen for characters who have the potential to use the Force, whereas Luck represents those who while not force sensitive, seem to be “lucky”.
Form my Section on Attributes
Force: Measure of the strength of a being’s connection with the Force. The few skills under Force represent a character’s ability to manipulate or perceive specific aspects of the Force.
Luck: Characters who are not Force Sensitive (the vast majority of individuals in the galaxy) have a Luck stat instead, which represents a character’s overall fortune and uncanny ability to influence chance in their favor. Luck, being an intangible attribute has no specific skills associated with it, however it is used to alter die rolls during the progression of the character’s adventures. This is covered more detail in influencing die rolls.
Using luck;
High level: it is like a character point pool that replenishes at the end of the adventure. They can be spent to alter die rolls the exact same way.
How much Luck
The die code of the attribute, is the amount the player can spend in a single session.
A character with a luck attribute of 3D, would be able to add up to 3D to rolls during a session. 2D+2 could add 2D, and a +2.
The die values can be used in 1D increments, with or without the pips, but the dice cannot be subdivided into pips.
The biggest difference is (inspired by the dnd feat ,lucky) is that the user can decide NOT to use the die, after they have rolled it.
Example: Mike has a luck of 2D+1. he rolls his dodge and it comes up not that great, and decides to spend 1D+1 of his luck on it. He rolls a 2, and with the +1, that equals 3, which he decides that is not worth using, so keeps the luck for the rest of the adventure.
and...
Example: Mike has a luck of 2D+1. he rolls his dodge and it comes up not that great, and decides to spend 1D+1 of his luck on it. He rolls a 5, and with the +1, that is 6, which he thinks will be worth while and keeps it. His remaining luck for the game session is 1D.
It can be raised or not raised in the exact format as the other attributes in the game (some groups allow increasing attributes, some don't).
There is no racial minimum or maximum on luck, although as a GM I impose a max of 3D at character creation.
In a single game session, yes, it is consumed like a resource (i.e. force points etc.). Each session, starts back at the full value (the attribute).
in fact, think of luck as "force points lite" that you get back at the end of the session.
Yes, this is powerful - especially since they can decide to use it AFTER they roll it. It (and some other tweaks) is designed to give non-force users more options and capability in games with mixed (force and non-force) in the same party.
(we don't always play in the rebellion era - after all - been actively playing star wars in one game system or another for over 20 years).
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:47 pm Post subject: Luck |
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| pakman wrote: | I did it to balance out force users and non-force users.
I took the 18d for six, and made it 20D for seven. |
| pakman wrote: | Using luck;
High level: it is like a character point pool that replenishes at the end of the adventure. They can be spent to alter die rolls the exact same way.
How much Luck
The die code of the attribute, is the amount the player can spend in a single session.
A character with a luck attribute of 3D, would be able to add up to 3D to rolls during a session. 2D+2 could add 2D, and a +2.
The die values can be used in 1D increments, with or without the pips, but the dice cannot be subdivided into pips.
The biggest difference is (inspired by the dnd feat ,lucky) is that the user can decide NOT to use the die, after they have rolled it.
Example: Mike has a luck of 2D+1. he rolls his dodge and it comes up not that great, and decides to spend 1D+1 of his luck on it. He rolls a 2, and with the +1, that equals 3, which he decides that is not worth using, so keeps the luck for the rest of the adventure.
and...
Example: Mike has a luck of 2D+1. he rolls his dodge and it comes up not that great, and decides to spend 1D+1 of his luck on it. He rolls a 5, and with the +1, that is 6, which he thinks will be worth while and keeps it. His remaining luck for the game session is 1D.
It can be raised or not raised in the exact format as the other attributes in the game (some groups allow increasing attributes, some don't).
There is no racial minimum or maximum on luck, although as a GM I impose a max of 3D at character creation.
In a single game session, yes, it is consumed like a resource (i.e. force points etc.). Each session, starts back at the full value (the attribute).
in fact, think of luck as "force points lite" that you get back at the end of the session.
Yes, this is powerful - especially since they can decide to use it AFTER they roll it. It (and some other tweaks) is designed to give non-force users more options and capability in games with mixed (force and non-force) in the same party. |
The problem I see is with this is that you are basically equating CPs to attribute dice. CPs are not even equal to skill dice, let alone attribute dice. Skill dice are more valuable because a higher skill value permanently increases all rolls for that skill. Attribute dice permanently create a higher base for all skill rolls on that attribute, and provide a higher default attribute roll for all non-improved skills under that attribute. Extra CPs per session, even with the benefit of being able to apply them to any roll, are not anywhere close to being congruent to the value of applying attribute dice to normal attributes. Your tweak of being able to decide to accept the roll or not (and not spend the dice if not), is not that "powerful" and still does not make the Luck attribute as valuable as the normal attributes.
From a dice probability perspective, it would be much more logical for your players of non-Force-sensitive characters to not allocate any dice to Luck. Force-sensitive characters get much more bang for their buck than non-Force-sensitives do. This is not balanced at all.
If you are really married to a Luck stat, my friendly suggestion would be to make it a skill instead of an attribute, so it only costs skill dice. That still doesn't balance it out, but it could help round out a player's character concept if they really want their character to seem or be known as "lucky."
The closest thing I have to a luck stat is that I consider "luck" is an inherent aspect of the skill I have for dodging and running (agility), meaning part of the skill value may actually represent raw luck instead of having to be justified/explained by they character's background/experience. In my game, most active player applications of luck are CPs and FPs as in RAW...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Oh, I'm definitely keeping the Force Attribute, but non-FS characters would put 0D in it, leaving 18D to split between the remaining six "standard" attributes. |
Moi aussi.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | "Luck" would be covered by Character Points, as per the RAW, but Character Points would be awarded separately from Skill Points. |
I do have Skill Points and Character Points both. SPs are the base experience points for adventures and may only be used to improve skills, as they are in 1e. CPs are the bonus points awarded for good roleplaying etc. and may be used to improve rolls in-play, used to improve Move, or used as SPs, as they are in 2e.
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pakman
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If you are really married to a Luck stat, my friendly suggestion would be to make it a skill instead of an attribute, so it only costs skill dice. That still doesn't balance it out, but it could help round out a player's character concept if they really want their character to seem or be known as "lucky." |
Hmmm....
All good points sir. Thank you for your thoughts.
I do agree that, technically - any boost to other attributes is a better statistical choice, as their contribution is there 100% of the time.
My players do seem to like the idea, and to be honest, it has not been play tested extensively yet. So input from others is indeed valuable.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Luck |
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| Whill wrote: | | The closest thing I have to a luck stat is that I consider "luck" is an inherent aspect of the skill I have for dodging and running (agility), meaning part of the skill value may actually represent raw luck instead of having to be justified/explained by they character's background/experience. |
I'm reminded of the Talon Karrde quote:“I’ve found that what most people call luck is often little more than raw talent combined with the ability to make the most of opportunities.” Considering the Agility is a Dexterity skill, I don't think it fully encompasses the broad range of things that a Luck skill might cover, such as Piloting or Gambling or any of the other myriad things where people might think random chance is a factor.
If I had to make Luck a skill, I'd probably make it an Advanced Skill, although I'm at a loss as to what Prerequisites it would have.
| Quote: | | I do have Skill Points and Character Points both. SPs are the base experience points for adventures and may only be used to improve skills, as they are in 1e. CPs are the bonus points awarded for good roleplaying etc. and may be used to improve rolls in-play, used to improve Move, or used as SPs, as they are in 2e. |
That's the way I picture it, as well, although I briefly considered throwing out 'Character Point' in favor of 'Plot Armor Point'...
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Luck |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | The closest thing I have to a luck stat is that I consider "luck" is an inherent aspect of the skill I have for dodging and running (agility), meaning part of the skill value may actually represent raw luck instead of having to be justified/explained by they character's background/experience. |
I'm reminded of the Talon Karrde quote:“I’ve found that what most people call luck is often little more than raw talent combined with the ability to make the most of opportunities.”
Considering the Agility is a Dexterity skill, I don't think it fully encompasses the broad range of things that a Luck skill might cover, such as Piloting or Gambling or any of the other myriad things where people might think random chance is a factor.
If I had to make Luck a skill, I'd probably make it an Advanced Skill, although I'm at a loss as to what Prerequisites it would have. |
I definitely don't and won't have a Luck stat. "Luck" is already inherent in every die roll of all skills. But I guess my above reference to my agility skill needed more context...
In my game, every single skill dice allocation choice made by a player when creating a PC must be reasonable for in the PC's background. If a PC's background says they were a boring bureau of repulsorlift vehicles clerk until they decided to join the Alliance right before play begins, the player can't just put 2D into the blaster skill without some additions to the background to explain that. You grew up spending every summer on your eccentric uncle's moon hunting wildlife? OK. I apply the same standard to gambling and piloting skills. You can't allocate starting skill dice to those skills without your background justifying it. In my game, there is no 'the character grew up playing Go Fish with his grandmother every Saturday but is now just unnaturally lucky at sabacc' or 'the character never saw a spaceship before the campaign but he is just unnaturally lucky at flying them.'
My single exception to the above background standard is agility. A player may allocate the first 1D of skill dice to agility without any need to justify it in the PC's background. The PC with 1D allocated to agility doesn't have to had ever dodged a ranged weapon attack before the campaign, so can just be "lucky" when it comes to dodging danger. Now allocating 2D to agility, I do require some justification in the background for that. In this galaxy though, it is very easy to account for.
That's all I meant. Agility isn't a Luck stat. It is just the closest thing I have to a luck stat because 1D of it can be thought of as coming from luck instead of skill. Of course, it is only luck for the things that particular skill applies to.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Quote: | | I do have Skill Points and Character Points both. SPs are the base experience points for adventures and may only be used to improve skills, as they are in 1e. CPs are the bonus points awarded for good roleplaying etc. and may be used to improve rolls in-play, used to improve Move, or used as SPs, as they are in 2e. |
That's the way I picture it, as well, although I briefly considered throwing out 'Character Point' in favor of 'Plot Armor Point'... |
"Plot Armor Points" captures the burn-in-play aspect of CP, but CPs can also be used to improve Move and skills (and attributes in RAW). "Character Points" is more all-encompassing because it has a variety of uses to help characters.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: Luck |
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| Whill wrote: | | I definitely don't and won't have a Luck stat. |
Me either; the CP/SP system you detailed above covers phenomenon of luck just fine as far as I'm concerned. But if pakman is dead-set on having this be a rollable attribute or skill, my thinking is that an Advanced Skill is the best way to represent Luck, as defined by the Talon Karrde quote.
| Quote: | | "Plot Armor Points" captures the burn-in-play aspect of CP, but CPs can also be used to improve Move and skills (and attributes in RAW). "Character Points" is more all-encompassing because it has a variety of uses to help characters. |
Wait, so do you allow Skill Points and Character Points to be used to improve Skills and Move? I was under the impression that, under the split system, Character Points would be strictly burn-in-play while Skill Points would be strictly for character improvement, with no crossover.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I do have Skill Points and Character Points both. SPs are the base experience points for adventures and may only be used to improve skills, as they are in 1e. CPs are the bonus points awarded for good roleplaying etc. and may be used to improve rolls in-play, used to improve Move, or used as SPs, as they are in 2e. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | "Plot Armor Points" captures the burn-in-play aspect of CP, but CPs can also be used to improve Move and skills (and attributes in RAW). "Character Points" is more all-encompassing because it has a variety of uses to help characters. |
Wait, so do you allow Skill Points and Character Points to be used to improve Skills and Move? I was under the impression that, under the split system, Character Points would be strictly burn-in-play while Skill Points would be strictly for character improvement, with no crossover. |
No. Skill Points cannot improve Move, or anything but skills. Hence the name Skill Points.
| Code: | * Skill Points improve skills only, just like they do in 1e RAW.
* Character Points can be burned in-play, used to improve Move, and used to improve skills, just like they do in 2e RAW. |
The only overlap is that CPs can also be used as SPs, in addition to the other stuff they do. CP awards are the bonus points. Players can use them how they wish.
So the only difference with 2e RAW is that the base experience points PCs earn for adventures (SPs) are restricted for skill improvement only. One purpose of this was to address the players who want to pool all their CPs to burn in play only, never improving any skills.
A GM told a tale of a long term campaign with a player like this, whose PC was the stand-out start at the beginning of the campaign but eventually fell so far behind the other PCs in skill that he was outclassed and the CPs to burn in play no longer could help him keep up with the other PCs (and their challenges). The player learned the lesson the hard way. Thankfully, I haven't had any players lean on CPs to burn in play too hard, but some players do it more than others.
My system keeps the PC skill levels congruent with each other, since some points they get can only be used to improve skills. But I didn't want to completely take away the player option to saving some CPs to help improve skills. I see no reason to change CPs to remove the skill point use of them.
So each point applies to exactly as they do in each RAW (except that I do not allow attributes to improve after play begins). The difference is how players earn each point. In both RAWs, each points are base experience and bonus. In my system, SPs are base experience and CPs are bonus.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | Great questions!
(remind me to just send my full rules to you folks when I am done formatting and tweking).
Luck, is an attribute, like any other.
Strength, Knowledge, etc. It is a
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That would help greatly. So since its an attribute, its 10x the cost to raise.. So going from 2d+2 to 3d,is 20 points.. BUT SINCE IT regenerates and can keep being used session after session, that kind of seems cheep..
| pakman wrote: | Using luck;
High level: it is like a character point pool that replenishes at the end of the adventure. They can be spent to alter die rolls the exact same way.
How much Luck
The die code of the attribute, is the amount the player can spend in a single session.
A character with a luck attribute of 3D, would be able to add up to 3D to rolls during a session. 2D+2 could add 2D, and a +2.
The die values can be used in 1D increments, with or without the pips, but the dice cannot be subdivided into pips.
The biggest difference is (inspired by the dnd feat ,lucky) is that the user can decide NOT to use the die, after they have rolled it.
Example: Mike has a luck of 2D+1. he rolls his dodge and it comes up not that great, and decides to spend 1D+1 of his luck on it. He rolls a 2, and with the +1, that equals 3, which he decides that is not worth using, so keeps the luck for the rest of the adventure.
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That is very generous in that they can decide AFTER rolling if they use it or not.
| pakman wrote: | In a single game session, yes, it is consumed like a resource (i.e. force points etc.). Each session, starts back at the full value (the attribute).
in fact, think of luck as "force points lite" that you get back at the end of the session.
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With this stat being so 'generous', how many CP (for advancing skills) do you award each session?
| pakman wrote: | | I do have Skill Points and Character Points both. SPs are the base experience points for adventures and may only be used to improve skills, as they are in 1e. CPs are the bonus points awarded for good roleplaying etc. and may be used to improve rolls in-play, used to improve Move, or used as SPs, as they are in 2e. |
So they can effectively Double dip, both with luck AND CP..
| Whill wrote: | | I definitely don't and won't have a Luck stat. "Luck" is already inherent in every die roll of all skills. But I guess my above reference to my agility skill needed more context... |
Especially since everyone already has built in luck with the wild dice, Force points and character points..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | pakman wrote: | | I do have Skill Points and Character Points both. SPs are the base experience points for adventures and may only be used to improve skills, as they are in 1e. CPs are the bonus points awarded for good roleplaying etc. and may be used to improve rolls in-play, used to improve Move, or used as SPs, as they are in 2e. |
So they can effectively Double dip, both with luck AND CP.. |
Yeah... that's too much. I thought the idea was to replace the in-game-boost aspect of CPs with the Luck stat and use CPs just for character-building. A luck stat on top of being able to use CPs as per the 2E RAW is too much.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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That's why i can't ever see using a luck stat.. UNLESS IT REPLACED spending CP on die rolls, AND the CP awards were lessened.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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When this got bumped, it made me take another look at my original concept, and it got me thinking. The two things I dislike about making Force Powers into Advanced Skills is the exceptions I have to make to the rules for Advanced Skills (as in, how they stack with the skill dice when being used for their intended purpose, and how they don't stack with prerequisites). However, the idea of giving Force Powers their own dice ratings that stack with their base skill still appeals to me, as it offers a degree of granularity where a character can be more adept at certain powers than others (something that features repeatedly in the EU).
What I'm thinking of doing is moving away from the Advanced Skills idea and simply making up new rules for the Force Powers, retaining most of what I wrote in the OP, but no longer having to make exceptions for Advanced Skills.
I'd still require players to spend CP (or SP, in accordance with our discussion above) to purchase a Force Power with a base of 1D, which would still stack with the base Skill, and improvement cost would still be double CP, except for the Talents, which would improve at normal CP cost. The Teacher rule would also still be in effect, so a character without a teacher could only improve an individual Power at quadruple CP cost, and double for Talents.
EDIT: New Rule Write-Up Post
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pakman
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | That's why i can't ever see using a luck stat.. UNLESS IT REPLACED spending CP on die rolls, AND the CP awards were lessened. |
I don't disagree with any of the really good comments in here.
But I want to be clear; Luck is for non-force users.
Force users have Force, non-force users have luck.
So both have the same number of Attributes - it makes things consistent and more streamlined.
Think of han solo - the guy who just seems to have a charmed life, or those who happen to do things that just seem ...lucky... (like two droids crossing hallways filled with blaster fire).
Again, this is to balance out against force users, which don't mix well in RAW (because raw assumes you are hiding from imperials all the time, and then also further balances them out with a original trilogy "paladin" type view).
It is a construct to partially balance out how jedi vs. non-jedi characters are issues (again, my group does not always play in time periods where jedi are limited - so mixed parties are very plausible in our game).
Also, I don't give out character points for use in rolls. (they do get a similar thing for good role playing, but it is limited).
I give out 10 Experience points at the end of an adventure, with a bonus for good playing. If it is a long adventure, I may give out an award half way, at a major story point.
SUMMARY:
I appreciate everyone's feedback, as all these things are an experimental means of a bigger goal ; as part of a comprehensive design to achieve the following goals;
1) Force Attribute for force users , with control sense and alter just being skills.
2) A balancing attribute for non-force users (for consistency).
3) Normalizing of force powers into something closer to core rules (i.e. they are advanced skills - not some off the wall unique thing).
4) Smoothing out of force user progression *
4) The segregation of experience (or skill points) points and a bonus type mechanic.
I am sure with the great amount of experience and creativity of the folks here, others may approach those challenges differently (or even not be concerned about some of them).
Obviously I may need to tweak things over time (like allowing luck to be decided upon after use).
So, I highly value questions and critiques - although, some of them, out of context of the greater whole - may not be as relevant as within the whole.
Although - Ironically, my players think all "this force and luck stuff is cool" is just fine. They are more annoyed that they can only move once in a round....(I have been watching the "splitting movement" and "breaking up movement" threads closely..... but that...as they say, is another story). 
* Smoothing out force progression
Because of the Force Attribute and combo of force skills (Control, sense, and alter) character have higher starting force skills. (2D force+1D alter = 3D alter).
This is good, as they are almost impossible to use for starting force users by RAW.
However, I have significantly reduced the power curve of many of the powers - thus while they can be used earlier, they don't get as powerful over time - thus making jedi characters more usable at both low, and high levels of experience.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | Again, this is to balance out against force users, which don't mix well in RAW (because raw assumes you are hiding from imperials all the time, and then also further balances them out with a original trilogy "paladin" type view).
It is a construct to partially balance out how jedi vs. non-jedi characters are issues (again, my group does not always play in time periods where jedi are limited - so mixed parties are very plausible in our game). |
I feel that non-Jedi PCs are fairly well balanced with Jedi PCs in char gen by the fact that attribute dice not allocated to The Force are placed in the normal attributes. Jedi PCs have to take dice away from normal attributes to put it into the Force, so their normal attributes are weaker. That's the balancing factor: more Force = less non-Force ability.
This even exists in RAW without a Force attribute. Cost-wise, the first 1D of each Force skill is the cost of an attribute die, so starting Jedi PCs will have 1D to 3D less total attribute dice (depending on how many Force skills they start with).
Some GMs feel this is too costly for Jedi, because a Jedi with all three Force skills only has 15D for attributes. Beginning Force PCs are weak in the Force starting out, and if the character only has 15D in attributes they aren't that good in non-Force abilities either. The Force attribute concept addresses that by allowing for a starting Jedi to have access to three Force skills at a minimum cost of only 1D in attribute dice. A starting Jedi still won't be strong in the Force, but they won't be so inept at everything else while they are improving their Force abilities.
Having non-Jedi PCs have attribute dice that function as a number of special CPs per session is really unbalancing things in favor of the Jedi PC direction, which seems to be the opposite of your intention. Non-Jedi characters with Luck don't get near the same value for the attribute dice as Force PCs.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14032
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:55 am Post subject: |
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Another bonus, is force users(well sensitives) can carry any # of force points. Non force users, are cappd at 5.
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