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Force Powers as Advanced Skills
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
One question I have regarding the Force Powers that use two Skills (say, Control and Alter):

If they bought the Force Power (let's say Accelerate Another's Healing) at 1D and have each Control at 3D and Alter at 3D, would you then stack things, so that they have a 7D when using that Power?

I've been considering that, and there are a few options.
    Most Restrictive = Blanket ban on stacking Force Power dice, requiring PCs to only roll stack the dice in that particular power.

    Least Restrictive = Allow PCs to stack ALL the dice from their prerequisite powers when attempting to roll a power.

    Compromise = Allow PCs to pick one prerequisite skill under each skill to add to the next skill up.
Personally, I'm leaning toward the Most Restrictive option, in keeping with the "flatten the power curve" theme for Jedi characters. We're already bending the rules by allowing the character to apply their Base Skills to their Advanced Skill when rolling the Advanced Skill ability; this just helps bend it back a bit.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pakman wrote:
anyway, this got long....but I think you get the idea.

Much to grok. I'm going to withhold judgment until I see the finished product. Personally, I'm trying to pare down some of my house rules as much as possible, particularly the ones that involve combat.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Personally, I'm leaning toward the Most Restrictive option, in keeping with the "flatten the power curve" theme for Jedi characters. We're already bending the rules by allowing the character to apply their Base Skills to their Advanced Skill when rolling the Advanced Skill ability; this just helps bend it back a bit.

Just added the Most Restrictive option to the OP of my thread.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been a while on this, but I have worked out the structure, and most of the details for my combo of "Force attribute and powers revised".


Intro
I have merged, sorted, organized, chopped, added and mixed the messy cross referenced spaghetti that was the game provided force powers.

Although I have to admit, there are not as few of them as I had originally anticipated (60 or so), they are less redundant, and streamlined in their use (all only take a single roll for example). The rules have been normalized, use common terminology (keywords etc.) and many supporting examples.

They are now called Force Techniques, and are organized under different Force Powers that are advanced skills, which grant access to the Techniques (exactly like martial arts).

Some techniques, are indeed available in more than one Force power - although maybe accessible at different levels based upon concept and power level (hibernation trance is on both the Force Focus Power, and the Healing Power).

here is the high level outline, with some terms;

The Force Abilities.
A character’s force capabilities are represented in the game in a layered level of mechanics, presented here:


    Force Attribute: Is the measure of the character’s overall connection with the Force. It is the “parent Attribute” for the Force skills.

    Force Skills: The force skills represent the characters’ ability to use or manipulate different aspects of the Force. There are three main force skills. Control, Sense and Alter. They are requirements for Force Powers and Techniques.

    Force Powers: Advanced Skills which correspond to focused areas of the Force, grouped around a common concept or motif, giving access to a group of related Force Techniques.

    Force Technique: Ability representing a very specific method for manifesting the force; they are hierarchically organized based upon the skill required within their parent Force Power.


The layers of force Attribute to Force Technique mirror the same approach as other Advanced Skills; For example, The Martial Arts(A) advanced skill gives access to a number of combat related abilities, called Martial Techniques.

Learning Force Abilities.

The force attribute
This is initially acquired during character creation, with the character having a Force attribute or not. (non-force users have a Luck stat, but that is a different conversation).

Learning Force Skills

    Learning a New Force Skill
    Prerequisites: Force Attribute greater then Zero.
    Experience Point Cost: Cost is 10 XP.
    Training Time: One day for each Experience Point spent.
    Training time may be reduced by one day for each additional Experience Point spent (minimum of one day).



A student must have a teacher with at least 3D Skill bonus to learn a Force Skill.
The student gains skill at 1D. (The character is also taught one Force power pertaining to the skill; see “Force Powers.”).

When learning the first Die Code in a Force Skill, the student may learn any Force Power the teacher knows, as long as the student meets any requirements for the skill (see Force Powers later in this section).
Also, most of the Force Skills also come with their own basic Force Technique which can be used as soon as the student completes the Force Skill Training.

It varies by Force Tradition, but a Jedi student will most often be taught Control first, although some teachers begin instruction with the Sense skill. Alter is usually taught last.

Improving Force Skills
Use the following rules when Improving Force Skills:
Force Skills (Control, Sense, Alter)

    Improve an Existing Force Skill 1 Pip:
    Experience Point Cost: Equal to the current Die Code for the Skill Bonus.
    Training Time: One day for each Experience Point spent.

    Training time may be reduced by one day for each additional Experience Point spent (minimum of one day).
    The cost and time are double without a teacher.


Learning Force Powers
A character learns a Force Power when acquiring their first rank in a given Force Skill (typically, during character creation).
After that, additional improvements in a specific the Force Skill do not add new Force Powers (Learning a second Force Skill for the first time, however, would grant a second Force Power, based on that Skill).

Use the following rules when learning a new Force Powers.

    Learn a New Force Power
    Prerequisites: A character must have the requirements for the Force Power.
    Experience Point Cost: Cost is 5 XP.
    Training Time: One day for each Experience Point spent.
    Training time may be reduced by one day for each additional Experience Point spent (minimum of one day).
    Force Powers are advanced skills, and require instruction of some sort (teacher, Holocron, etc.).

    The student gains skill at 1D.


A teacher must know the force power to a higher level (pre-improvement) then the student to count as a qualified instructor.

When learning the first Die Code in a Force Power, the student may learn any Force Technique associated with the Force Skill which the teacher knows, as long as the student meets any requirements for the Technique (see Force Powers later in this section).

Note: being an Advanced Skill, a Force Power is rated in a Die Code equal to their Skill Rank only, they do not gain a Parent Skill, or Attribute Bonus.

In use, the Skill Rank often represents either a Bonus Die or a modifier to a roll, based upon the specific application of the Force power.

Improving Force Powers
Unless they explicitly state otherwise, Force Powers are improved like any other Advanced Skill.

    Improve an Existing Force Power 1 Pip:
    Experience Point Cost: 2x the current “D” Die Code.
    Training Time: One day for each Experience Point spent.
    Training time may be reduced by one day for each additional Experience Point spent (minimum of one day).
    The cost and time are double without a teacher.


Upon improving a Force Skill, the Student may select 1 new Technique which the teacher knows, and they meet the Prerequisites for.

Force Skill Innate Techniques
The three main force skills each grant access to number of force techniques, and while they are limited in capacity, they can be used witout additional training.

Example of the Control Entry with Techniques.

Force Skill: Control
Control is the Force User’s ability to control their own body. A Force User with control can access their own internal well of Force energy, learning harmony with and mastery over the functions of their own body.
Knowing the control Force Skill to at least 1D, Grants access to the following Force Techniques.

    Force Techniques granted with Control
    Extend Force: Allows a Force User to augment their ability to manipulate the Force beyond their natural capability. It can lead to exhaustion, or in extreme cases, even death.
    Force Meditation: The ability to enter a state of calm, focus and awareness, where the force user can rest, contemplate and recover.

The specific mechanics of the abilities are covered in the later section on Force Techniques.

Note: The extend force technique is how force users can exhaust themselves (grogu, luke, etc.) - it is my version of the concepts discussed earlier in the thread.

My apologies for any wonky formatting - I was copying this out of my heavily formatted word document - once it reaches a certain point, I will share with the group - it is basically my heavily customized version of star wars d6 (as the house rules supplement, that I just put the main rules into, so you don't have two books).

May the dice be with you!
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have an example of what a character would look like with this?
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pakman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Do you have an example of what a character would look like with this?


Certainly, if I understand correctly....

My revised character sheet has two new areas;

A spot for a seventh attribute, and in the special abilities area, room for force powers/techniques.

Force Sensitive characters have Force for their seventh attribute, and non-force sensitive individuals have Luck. (luck is treated like Character points they can spend per session.... "I call it luck"). I use a slightly different character point system, so it works out fine. All characters get 20D to spend on the seven stats.

Code:

Force______2D
Alter______3D+2
Control____3D+1
Sense______4D   


Then, a section on Force Abilities

The layout is;

Name of Force Power (advanced skill) - its skill rank.
* technique name, and governing force skill.
* technique name, and governing force skill.


Code:
FORCE POWERS AND TECHNIQUES
Sense Force (A)_____1D
__Sense Force: Sense
__Life Sense: Sense

Enhance Self(A)_____1D
__Control Pain: Control
__Enhance Attribute: Control


I am still updating the excel character sheet, but at this point, they just write them down.

As said previously, I have organzed all the force powers into groups (about 12 of them) and those groups each have a number of force techniques in them (the old powers).

For the most part, the requirements are VERY SIMPLIFIED - no more having to plan out for a long time on what needs what skill, and what do I have to take next. Each technique what the requirements are for it; the level (skillrank) of the parent skill, and any Force Skill requirement.

For example,

The listing for advanced skill Enhance Self(A) would look like;


    Force Power Group: Enhance Self(A)
    Description: Allows the force user to enhance and augment their personal capabilities through mastery of the force, to the point of fantastical feats of athleticism and endurance.
    Requires: Control Skill Bonus of 2D.
    Techniques:
    Available at Enhance Self of 1D
    Burst of Speed
    Control Pain
    Enhance Attribute
    Force Leap (also requires Alter of 2D)
    Resist Stun

    Available at Enhance Self of 2D
    Control Breathing
    Remain Conscious
    Up the Walls (also requires Alter of 3D)
    Accelerate Healing

    Available at Enhance Self of 3D
    etc.



This should give an idea.

More on Techniques
Every Technique (power in old terms) has only one skill to roll, and some of the ones that took multiple actions still do - it is just an single roll to represent something that counts as two actions for multiple action penalty purposes.

For Example, my lightsaber combat force skill has been renamed Force Combat (not all traditions use lightsabers).

Under difficulty it says: Control(2), DL3:Moderate.

This means it usues the Control skill, counts as two actions to start and keep up, and is in the third difficulty level: Moderate.
(I have a lot of things that say "increase the difficulty one level" etc.).

I spent a lot of effort on trying to simplify, yet keep the diversity of options open.

The overall goal was to make the control sense and alter more like normal attributes and skills. Then, the powers were grouped under advanced skills, just like the martial arts techniques under martial arts.

It sounds complicated (at first) but is more consistent and less-cross-reference-ey. Wink
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Darklighter79
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so how does it work on a particular example?
Let's assume Jedi has Control 2D, Alter 2D and wants to perform a Force Leap to cross a 10 meters gap.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
OK, so how does it work on a particular example?
Let's assume Jedi has Control 2D, Alter 2D and wants to perform a Force Leap to cross a 10 meters gap.


A 10m gap with 2d? he would be go splat on both systems!! Smile

in force jump, there are two rolls at easy, one for alter, one for control.

New version: one roll, control at moderate.
Done. All the rest is the same.
The rest is the same rules for force jump as today (reup, page 167).

Alter is only required as a prerequisite to learning the technique.

The increase in the control difficulty from Easy to moderate, to account for the fact that in raw, both skills are two actions, and take a -1D penalty.

Technically, to be more true to the original, I could have kept the difficulty at easy, and made control count as two actions, thus also keeping the impact on jump, but this felt odd, as jumping did not feel like it was a huge effort, vs. perhaps difficult (how fast we see it in the movies).

Obviously, this system is not perfect - but a perfect system was beyond my goals - I just wanted a bit more simple and consistent with other mechanics.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is LS combat handled under this revision? ALSO if everyone's getting 20d for attributes, doesn't that make pcs, EVEN MORE "Buff" compared to mooks like storm troopers?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After some consideration, I think a Luck Attribute and 20D of Attribute dice are a bit too much. I think a more reasonable option would be to bring back Experience Points alongside Character Points, with Character Points solely being spend on in-game dice boosts (basically Force Point Lite) and Experience Points used to increase Skill Dice.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
...and Experience Points used to increase Skill Dice.

Or instead of using a D&D term, call them Skill Points as they called them in SW D6 1e.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Or instead of using a D&D term, call them Skill Points as they called them in SW D6 1e.

I had forgotten they were called that. Yes, Skill Points, not Experience Points.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
if everyone's getting 20d for attributes, doesn't that make pcs, EVEN MORE "Buff" compared to mooks like storm troopers?


My apologies for not explaining it better...it is actually "less buff".

Today, with Six stats players get 18D, that is an average of 3D per attribute.
My game has SEVEN attributes, with 20D.

That is up to 3D in each of the original six, and 2D in the the 7th.

So, the dice per attribute is about (about 2D+2 average now).

garhkal wrote:
How is LS combat handled under this revision?


Simple.
Force Combat
Requires Sense 2D, Control 3D.
Used with specialized melee combat skills
(my lightsaber combat is also an advanced skill, but I also have a melee mastery advanced skill - for people not using lightsabers).

to activate is a Control(2) action, moderate difficulty.
(Control 2 means it counts as two actions to activate, and maintain for keeping up).

On success:
Can add Control dice to rolling to hit.
Can add Sense dice to rolling parry.

Side note: Even before my changes, I changed control to be hit instead of damage even with the old LS power.


Summary: most of the changes are actually really simple - and many of the mechanics remain the same.

In the goal of wanting a single roll force ability, I look at the rolls in the current system, and convert those into requirements.

Then, I pick the skill (control, sense, alter) that feels like the main driver - and make it the one that is rolled against.

If it feels like the multi-rolls were important to multiple action penalties before, I just make the new single skill a multi-action roll. (i.e. it takes more effort, and two action steps to use).
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pakman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
After some consideration, I think a Luck Attribute and 20D of Attribute dice are a bit too much.


To each their own. I did it to balance out force users and non-force users.
I took the 18d for six, and made it 20D for seven.


CRMcNeill wrote:
I think a more reasonable option


My goal was to add a force attribute, sounds like we may have had different goals. which is ok. Smile

But really did not explain it well in the context of the other post;
I wanted both force users and non-force users to have the same number of attributes, and dice for them - to keep things in balance.
(this and creating more advanced skills for non-force users - but that is another topic).

My luck attribute ("I call it luck...") is designed to do this.
(it is a source of extra bonus dice they can use in the session - they refill each session - so it is kind or like a renewable character point source).


CRMcNeill wrote:
bring back Experience Points alongside Character Points, with Character Points solely being spend on in-game dice boosts (basically Force Point Lite) and Experience Points used to increase Skill Dice.


Force Point Lite! I love it!!!
Actually I do something like this, independent of the advanced skills.

Experience points are only used in character advancement.
(I call them XP, as they can be used on more than just skills - but if I only limited them to just skills, I could absolutely see calling them skill points).

(side note: I don't care for the other types of advancements that CP can do in the rules - move score, etc.) but have not considered removing them yet - if I do, I might just call them skill points).


I don't give CP for using as boost type dice. I give out "hero points" (basically the same thing) for good role playing, etc.

Like, if a character can narratively turn a 1 on the wild die into something entertaining, they can generate a hero point out of it.

I am very lucky that all of my players are very creative, and several of them (including myself) actually have theater and improv experience - so we have a ton of fun with this kind of stuff.

(side note: In a previous session, a wild die 1 on a persuade encounter ended up in the long run, with one of the character's have in new love interest on corellia now....)

Anyway....getting a bit off topic here.....
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I'm definitely keeping the Force Attribute, but non-FS characters would put 0D in it, leaving 18D to split between the remaining six "standard" attributes. "Luck" would be covered by Character Points, as per the RAW, but Character Points would be awarded separately from Skill Points.
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