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Force Powers as Advanced Skills
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:06 pm    Post subject: Force Powers as Advanced Skills Reply with quote

So, in/re what pakman posted here, this is my framework for applying a similar concept:
    1) Use the Force Attribute for character generation.

    2) On creation, characters get 1 Force Power per D in a Force skill (including Attributes) at creation.

    3) All Force Powers are now treated as Advanced Skills, but slightly modified, in that they stack with the base Skill when rolling. For example, if a character has Control 5D and (A) Enhance Attribute 1D, they would roll 6D to bring up Enhance Attribute.

    4) Characters no longer learn powers for free when increasing their base Force skills, but must instead spend CP to learn new powers as per the rules for Advanced Skills.

    5) The costs to learn new Advanced Skills are slightly modified from the rules in 2R&E pg. 35, specifically, that learning a multi-skill Force Power costs extra (+1 CP for a C/S, C/A or S/A power, and +2 for a C/S/A power), thusly:
      Power Complexity = Base CP Cost to Learn:
      C, S or A = 3 CP
      C/S, C/A or S/A = 4 CP
      C/S/A = 5 CP
    All CP costs and Training Times are doubled when learning without a teacher.

    6) All Required Powers are now treated as Prerequisites, as per the existing rules for Advanced Skills. By default, the minimum requirement is 1D (subject to change at GM discretion). However, unlike with other Advanced Skills, Prerequisites do not stack; only the Power being rolled stacks with the requisite Force Skill.

    7) Moment of Insight!: Characters may use a power that they have not learned if they spend a Force Point to activate it. They may subsequently learn the power at 1/2 (rounded up) CP Cost and Training Time. Whether or not the Force Point use is considered Heroic is dependent upon the circumstances.
EDIT: In addition, the above rule necessitates a change to the Force Attribute linked above, specifically:
    For every full D of Force Attribute, the character may select one Sense Power for which they have a particular aptitude, referred to as a Talent. Untrained Force users (those with dice in the Force Attribute but not Force skills) may roll their Attribute to use their Talent Skill, despite being untrained, at +5 Difficulty. All CP costs to learn and improve the Talent Skill are reduced by 1/2 (rounded up), and the skill may be used normally once it has been learned (no more +5 penalty). GMs may allow characters to select Powers other than Sense at their discretion.

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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:50 am; edited 4 times in total
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like this, and am looking at using it with my new Force Attribute that I'm trying out with our new Jedi character.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
I really like this, and am looking at using it with my new Force Attribute that I'm trying out with our new Jedi character.

Please let us know how it works. I'm hopeful about how this tilts the power balance for Jedi PCs over the course of multiple adventures, in that it reduces the power slope but starts the character several steps further up the slope than they would under the RAW, such that they'll be "useful" sooner, but find improvement will be slower and more costly.

EDIT: Also, would you care to elaborate on your version of Force Attribute?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the Moment of Insight rule, in The Mandalorian, Grogu is seen to use Telekinesis at pretty high Difficulty level, but is rendered unconscious afterward. What would you suggest as a way to represent this? Off the top of my head, I'd suggest inflicting Stun damage based on how high the character rolled to use the power (maybe 1/2 of the total, since the Force point would double the value, as normal).
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Regarding the Moment of Insight rule, in The Mandalorian, Grogu is seen to use Telekinesis at pretty high Difficulty level, but is rendered unconscious afterward. What would you suggest as a way to represent this? Off the top of my head, I'd suggest inflicting Stun damage based on how high the character rolled to use the power (maybe 1/2 of the total, since the Force point would double the value, as normal).


What about adding dice until you succeed, one at a time... then taking the amount as stun damage?

So, if I have 5D Telekinesis, I can try to move a Star Destroyer... but if I have to add 9D to make it happen, then I'm going to have one heck of a stun.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
What about adding dice until you succeed, one at a time... then taking the amount as stun damage?

So, if I have 5D Telekinesis, I can try to move a Star Destroyer... but if I have to add 9D to make it happen, then I'm going to have one heck of a stun.

I still want there to be a possibility of failure, though, even on a Force Point. And to be clear, this is mainly for characters using powers that they haven't actually learned, so they'd just be using their base Skill or Attribute, depending on their training level.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One question on this bit:

2) On creation, characters get 1 Force Power per D in a Force skill (including Attributes) at creation.

When they GET a Force Power doing it this way, do they get it at the base Skill amount?

If my player has 3D in the Force Attribute, and thus 3D Alter, 3D Control, and 3D Sense, and therefore getting 12 Force Powers to start the game with, does he get Concentration at 3D when he selects it as one of his beginning Force Powers?

Or does this "get" mean that he gets it at 1D, which would then be added to his 3D Control (for 4D when he goes to use Concentration)?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
Or does this "get" mean that he gets it at 1D, which would then be added to his 3D Control (for 4D when he goes to use Concentration)?

This. It seems a fair trade for having an Attribute and Skills that you can only use if you have Advanced Skills to apply them.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My way of doing things - right now - is to have the character begin with a Force Attribute. My new Jedi PC wants to start with The Force at 3D, so he has to get that 3D out of his other 18D starting Attribute dice (thus only getting 15 to spread around).

That gives him the default of Alter, Control, and Sense, and I'm leaning towards giving him 12 Force Powers to begin with (3 for each, including the Attribute), which he would get at 1D. He can then spend CPs to increase them (at the Advanced rate, so double), and when he goes to use one, he would add the base Force Skill plus whatever he's put into the Force Power.

So, as an example, if he took Concentration and spent 8 CPs to increase it from 1D to 2D, he would then roll 5D when he went to use Concentration (3D for Control + 2D for Concentration).
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
DougRed4 wrote:
Or does this "get" mean that he gets it at 1D, which would then be added to his 3D Control (for 4D when he goes to use Concentration)?

This. It seems a fair trade for having an Attribute and Skills that you can only use if you have Advanced Skills to apply them.


Cool, that's how I was thinking it would work best.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also considering consolidating the available Force Powers. I count 66 in the list from the old WEG list (The Jedi Companion, or whatever that book was called) and 76 in the REUP, which both seem a bit too much, especially as there was some redundancy and overlap, in my view.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
I'm also considering consolidating the available Force Powers. I count 66 in the list from the old WEG list (The Jedi Companion, or whatever that book was called) and 76 in the REUP, which both seem a bit too much, especially as there was some redundancy and overlap, in my view.

You might consider working with pakman on his proposal of grouping similar powers as Specializations under more broadly defined Advanced Skills.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Regarding the Moment of Insight rule, in The Mandalorian, Grogu is seen to use Telekinesis at pretty high Difficulty level, but is rendered unconscious afterward. What would you suggest as a way to represent this? Off the top of my head, I'd suggest inflicting Stun damage based on how high the character rolled to use the power (maybe 1/2 of the total, since the Force point would double the value, as normal).


A bit late responding, but I have two ways I am thinking of doing this.

Fatigue and Force Powers

Besides having my force powers cost some fatigue, I had been thinking about the exact scenario you describe (and luke being exhausted from trying to lift the xwing).

Pushing a force power to get more dice, causing exhaustion.


how this works...

Fatigue Levels
I have my own fatigue rules I am working on, but this works with the normal rules as well.

By raw, each failed fatigue check puts the character at -1D.
Three failed checks, and the character is out.

So, a bit of ...tweaking that....I get fatigue levels;

-0D fatigue : (implied) - no penalty.
-1D fatigue : -1d to all actions
-2D fatigue : -2D to all actions.
-3D fatigue : (implied) exhausted and out.

so...working with this framework...

Push Option and Fatigue

Sort of like using a character point, (pushing yourself, adrenalin, force of will, etc.) but fueling it with your physical/emotional strength instead.

A player can push a force power, and get extra dice equal up to their willpower D code. Each die they take, causes 1 level of fatigue.

So, if a player were to take 3 dice...they would effectively get 3 levels of fatigue - and pass out. (gm can decide what happens if they take 4 or more levels, or just disallow it).

Gorgu was desperate to do the things he did, so he pushed it (used his personal force, what ever....) and got more dice, was successful - but then got sleepy and was out.

More on Fatigue
In my game I am formalizing and quantifying the fatigue levels (implied by raw) like this;

Besides levels of being injured, characters also have a fatigue rating, measured in Die codes (1D, 2D etc.).
This represents a level of tiredness a character is at.
Various actions increase this rating (strenuous activity) or decrease it (rest and relaxation, stimulants, force powers)

A character surfers a penalty to all actions for each FULL D of fatigue they have.

E.g. Sam the Smuggler just walked three hours in the in the jungle, and how has a fatigue rating of 8 pips, which gives a penalty of -2D to all actions until they can rest.

Actions that add fatigue pips;
* Long concentration force powers add 1 pip per min.
* Being stunned adds 1 pip
* Failing a stamina check for strenuous activity adds 3pips
* Pushing a force power, each extra die adds 3pips of fatigue.

anyway, this got long....but I think you get the idea.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
My way of doing things - right now - is to have the character begin with a Force Attribute. My new Jedi PC wants to start with The Force at 3D, so he has to get that 3D out of his other 18D starting Attribute dice (thus only getting 15 to spread around).

I'm with you on this one...

Quote:
That gives him the default of Alter, Control, and Sense, and I'm leaning towards giving him 12 Force Powers to begin with (3 for each, including the Attribute), which he would get at 1D. He can then spend CPs to increase them (at the Advanced rate, so double), and when he goes to use one, he would add the base Force Skill plus whatever he's put into the Force Power.

My thinking was that they would get 1 Power for every D in their starting Force skills, including their Force Attribute Dice. So, for example, a starting Jedi PC would have an Attribute of Force 3D, then put 2D each in the Force skills, so they start with 5D each in Control, Sense and Alter. Because they have 5D, that's fifteen beginning Force powers. However, because they've dumped 6D of their 7D starting dice, they only have 1D to put into non-Force skills. Of course, that's perfectly reasonable for a sheltered Young Jedi PC who's just starting off on their own after being separated from their master.

Quote:
So, as an example, if he took Concentration and spent 8 CPs to increase it from 1D to 2D, he would then roll 5D when he went to use Concentration (3D for Control + 2D for Concentration).

I'm looking to stay more in line with the existing skill improvement system, with Concentration being treated like an (A) Skill. The player has the option of either spending CP to improve just (A) Concentration (which, without a teacher, is actually quadruple the normal CP cost, on account of being both an Advanced Skill and not having a teacher) or spending CP to improve Control (at only double the cost). OR they can try to learn a new Power, so long as they have someone to teach it to them.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One question I have regarding the Force Powers that use two Skills (say, Control and Alter):

If they bought the Force Power (let's say Accelerate Another's Healing) at 1D and have each Control at 3D and Alter at 3D, would you then stack things, so that they have a 7D when using that Power?
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