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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | While I do think fatigue rolls are appropriate for most forms of combat that require sustained effort (brawling and melee combat, for the most part), I'm less inclined to apply those same rules (or at least, not to the same degree) to lightsaber combat. While I do see lightsaber combat requiring a degree of exertion, I also see the character's physical body being rejuvenated and sustained by their connection to the Force, so the Jedi isn't going to be tiring out at the same rate as, say, a mixed martial artist in a match |
Exactly. How Tired did Obi-wan and anakin look, after their long duel? Or yoda and count dooku?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | I've got a new player in my campaign that wants to play a Jedi, so I'm really looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Fatigue is far more interesting to me than just making it super difficult for Jedi to be able to do what Jedi do. |
One alternative that springs to mind is using the Force Attribute house rule. This starts the PC with their Force skills in the 3D-5D range, which allows them to make use of the lower-level powers, but also places them several rungs up the CP cost slope and making improving the skills more expensive. From there, as GM, you can put obstacles in their way like denying them access to a teacher (double CP cost to improve)
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | DougRed4 wrote: | | I've got a new player in my campaign that wants to play a Jedi, so I'm really looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Fatigue is far more interesting to me than just making it super difficult for Jedi to be able to do what Jedi do. |
One alternative that springs to mind is using the Force Attribute house rule. This starts the PC with their Force skills in the 3D-5D range, which allows them to make use of the lower-level powers, but also places them several rungs up the CP cost slope and making improving the skills more expensive. From there, as GM, you can put obstacles in their way like denying them access to a teacher (double CP cost to improve) |
It can also really cut down on the number of powers they have... RAW, if they increased their skills with a teacher, they should have a fair number of powers. With this, they may have 3D in their Force Attribute, but won't have the 12 powers that would be implied by that (especially useful pre-Empire, where Force Training was a lot more common and available).
Ad res, one thing to consider implementing, especially with long-term force powers, is a roll like Stamina or Willpower to keep them going... you can only focus on Danger Sense for so long before it starts to wear on your brain.
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pakman
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | While I do think fatigue rolls are appropriate for most forms of combat that require sustained effort (brawling and melee combat, for the most part), I'm less inclined to apply those same rules (or at least, not to the same degree) to lightsaber combat. While I do see lightsaber combat requiring a degree of exertion, I also see the character's physical body being rejuvenated and sustained by their connection to the Force, so the Jedi isn't going to be tiring out at the same rate as, say, a mixed martial artist in a match |
Exactly. How Tired did Obi-wan and anakin look, after their long duel? Or yoda and count dooku? |
While we may all love various scenes from various source material - consistency in "hey, lets define this so gamers later can derive game mechanics from it" was never quite a consideration.... 
MY PREMISE
For me, there is a difference between;
* Doing something strenuous while using the force
* Doing something with the force, that is difficult.
The first case, could be any lightsaber combat, or any number of fantastical physical feats the jedi accomplish.
EXAMPLES
For example - look at maul, kenobi and qui-gon in the end battle in naboo.
The second case, is the one I am focusing a bit more on in my thoughts on force use and fatigue.
Specific cases would be luke appearing to be physically affected by his attempt to life the x-wing out of the swamp, and more recently - gorgu getting tired very rapidly when using force powers in mando.
PLOT DEVICE vs. MECHANIC
Now, the first case (the xwing) could be said lucas just wanted it to show the struggle for luke, to create a dramatic juxtaposition on how easy yoda did it.
The mando case could be clearly seen as "hey, we need a limit on the little guy, otherwise all conflict sccenes might just be solved with force powers".
Both are reasonable - and would not be the first time where we have had to think about "how the something works" as opposed to plot or story constructs.
However - given that in gaming, typically fantastical powers have limits - I find the methods in D6 to be lacking - at least to me.
MY APPROACH
Thus, to simulate that force powers themselves can have a toll (or limit) I am working on fatigue.
It is in its' draft form, but the two basics I have come up with are;
Characters can accumulate points (or pips) in fatigue.
When this reaches each 1D threshold it can affect game play.
Also, it may require stamina rolls at certain thresholds
(still working on that).
Fatigue points (or pips) are accumulated;
* Rolling a mishap on a force power
* Certain powers that are difficult (healing, etc.)
* Pushing beyond the character's capability with a force power (using character points to roll more dice).*
* Multiple rounds of non force related strenuous activity (melee combat).
Now, the various powers and drugs that reduce fatigue - I treat instead as reducing the affects you feel for fatigue (someone exhausted but with a lot of coffee in them are still exhausted - but don't feel it ...yet).
* I use a slightly different method than the standard character points, but the affect is the same - being able to push beyond an ability to a limited degree with extra dice.
CONCLUSION
Now, I am still working on the details - and this is in work in progress draft - but this is my theory, and my approach.
It is FAR FROM PERFECT - and has many gaps - some I have noticed, some I am sure I have not. I will post up more for feedback once I get it a bit more ironed out.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: |
Ad res, one thing to consider implementing, especially with long-term force powers, is a roll like Stamina or Willpower to keep them going... you can only focus on Danger Sense for so long before it starts to wear on your brain. |
Something i've often remarked about, to people who felt their jedi could keep up every power they wanted, for as LONG as they wanted...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | you can only focus on Danger Sense for so long before it starts to wear on your brain. |
Well, in the same sense that you can only keep your eyes open for so long before you need to get some sleep. IMO, certain Sense powers should be "always on", so to speak, in the sense that the character's connection to the Force never truly shuts off.
I can see your point for other "active" powers with a Control or Alter component, but Sense is (or should be, at least) no more difficult than using your eyes and ears to observe the world around you.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:51 am Post subject: |
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But wouldn't that then indicate those powers won't work if they are asleep??
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | But wouldn't that then indicate those powers won't work if they are asleep?? |
Do you ever get woken out of a sound sleep by a noise? Your ears don't stop working just because you're asleep. My take is that a premonition in the Force will alert a Jedi even in their sleep. If I had to pick one power that best represents this, it'd be Danger Sense.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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So you think danger sense should be always active, no roll needed?
And no, i've often been seen as a deep sleeper..
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So you think danger sense should be always active, no roll needed? |
Where did I say 'no roll needed'?
As I've said elsewhere, I think Danger Sense should activate as a reaction call by the GM, in the same way that the GM might tell players to roll Perception/Search to see if they spot something important. The GM would either tell the character to roll Sense or roll it himself, with the result determining whether or not Danger Sense activates.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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TBH, there are certain Force powers that make more sense as permanent super abilities, rather than "things you have to purposefully enact." Why SHOULD Danger sense be a thing you have to keep up, instead of a Force technique that will warn you of danger?
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“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | TBH, there are certain Force powers that make more sense as permanent super abilities, rather than "things you have to purposefully enact." Why SHOULD Danger sense be a thing you have to keep up, instead of a Force technique that will warn you of danger? |
Exactly. Anakin may be an extreme example, but Qui-gon specifically says that being able to see things before they happen is a Jedi trait, even in the untrained. Flashes or foresight or premonition would be the tangible indicators of Force Sensitivity, all happening prior to the character beginning any form of training. Which is why the Force Attribute works; it allows characters to make instinctive, untrained rolls of basic level Force powers.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | TBH, there are certain Force powers that make more sense as permanent super abilities, rather than "things you have to purposefully enact." Why SHOULD Danger sense be a thing you have to keep up, instead of a Force technique that will warn you of danger? |
Exactly. Anakin may be an extreme example, but Qui-gon specifically says that being able to see things before they happen is a Jedi trait, even in the untrained. Flashes or foresight or premonition would be the tangible indicators of Force Sensitivity, all happening prior to the character beginning any form of training. Which is why the Force Attribute works; it allows characters to make instinctive, untrained rolls of basic level Force powers. |
TBH, the treatment of Force Skills always felt weird. Like, you have this standard you've gone with for almost all of character creation... except this one part, where you wildly depart from it for no good reason.
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"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/ |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | TBH, the treatment of Force Skills always felt weird. Like, you have this standard you've gone with for almost all of character creation... except this one part, where you wildly depart from it for no good reason. |
Same. It’s pretty clear that WEG introduced it to nerf Jedi, but I wish they’d gone a different route.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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pakman
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding;
| Quote: | Force powers being different in how they are managed.
That some powers should have passive traits
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Agreed - as part of my house rules, I have modified it a bit.
(as inspired by pouring over rules, comments here etc.).
There is a Force Stat.
it has three skills.
Control, sense, alter.
Force powers are just advanced skills.
They have requirements in ranks of control, sense or alter.
They use the same costing structure as other advanced skills.
the only difference is that when using one, their skill bonus is stat + skill _ advanced skill.
But I have made other advanced skills the same, and just increased difficulties - so in my game, they are consistent.
Some skills grant passive abilities, and do not need to be kept "up".
Some do.
This was also done, so I could introduce other advanced skills for non-jedi ; martial arts, Officer (more skills for commanders), Mentalist (master manipulator), Marksman (shooting related), Art of the Deal (trade, con etc.).
Once I get them more firmed up, will post.
Oh, (and almost back on topic) will have a fatigue rating .... 
Once I get this refined a bit more - will post topics on it.
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