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WEG Stereotyped Aliens
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja-Bear wrote:
To sum up the original question, I don’t worry about WEG’s stereotype fluff. I see it as shorthand plus most of my players don’t know the fluff that well. I do create character against type but again some go with type.

Cheers!

ThrorII wrote:
SW rpg (especially 1e, which is my thing) is all about the Template. All smugglers are the same at start, all brash pilots are the same at start. Each alien race gets a Template, and is the same at start. Star Wars pretty much started the alien hat trope - each alien race can be distilled down to one feature. I find leaning in to the tropes of Star Wars is s feature, not a bug.

It is through skill point arrangement that the stereotype is broken.

Is it fair that some aliens are not as technologically inclined as others? Is it fair that some aliens are not as strong as others? Hey, life's not fair. BUT with hard work and time, you can overcome what life dealt you!

But the PC templates are 18D in attributes and the vast majority of aliens in the galaxy are not PCs. If you mean the average mbr of the species being the PC template -1D (and every PC of a species being the typical 12D attribute set +1D to each attribute), then this is very much part of the problem observed here.

However, this does highlight that the problem in 1e wasn't just the fluff – it was also the game rules for alien characters. Thanks for adding that insight to this discussion.

Alien stats being pigeon-holed into two sets (typical NPCs and PC-level characters with +1D to each attribute of the typical set) makes no sense. If that system was applied to humans, then all human PCs would have all 3Ds in their stats with no variation. Having 1e alien characters vary by skill dice allocation only is too rigid. I never did that, even back then.

I fully embrace the 2e attribute range system. By having attribute minimums and maximums, alien characters are still differently abled based on their relative strengths and weaknesses, but there is still some attribute variability within their ranges. This allows aliens to have attribute ranges like humans do, just different ranges than humans.
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, if the Templates are 18D total. 12D average plus 6D then I should revamp my Gamorrean Bounty Hunter as they are 11D stars per the rules.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja-Bear wrote:
Hmm, if the Templates are 18D total. 12D average plus 6D then I should revamp my Gamorrean Bounty Hunter as they are 11D stars per the rules.

I don't use the "average attribute dice +6D" for my game. Aliens species don't evolve equally so they can be all over the place, but I feel PCs should be equal so PCs in my game all have exactly 18D in attribute dice regardless of species. I recommend that to all GMs.

If a GM feels a species shouldn't have any 18D characters (such as when the species attribute maximums add up to less than 18D), then I think it is reasonable for a GM to forbid that species from being a PC. I used to stat Ewoks out as such but when I wanted to have an Ewok PC, I restatted their species maximums to allow for an 18D Ewok.

I actually have also had a player play an 18D Gamorrean.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Ninja-Bear wrote:
Hmm, if the Templates are 18D total. 12D average plus 6D then I should revamp my Gamorrean Bounty Hunter as they are 11D stars per the rules.

I don't use the "average attribute dice +6D" for my game. Aliens species don't evolve equally so they can be all over the place, but I feel PCs should be equal so PCs in my game all have exactly 18D in attribute dice regardless of species. I recommend that to all GMs.

If a GM feels a species shouldn't have any 18D characters (such as when the species attribute maximums add up to less than 18D), then I think it is reasonable for a GM to forbid that species from being a PC. I used to stat Ewoks out as such but when I wanted to have an Ewok PC, I restatted their species maximums to allow for an 18D Ewok.

I actually have also had a player play an 18D Gamorrean.


And this is how we get Fluffy. Wink
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is Whill is that I was trying to make the Gamorrean by the book😁. I also missed the part where staring characters can only have a max 7D. I had him have Brawling at 9D!
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always use the standard species attribute +6D. An old line from some game that I cannot remember said something like, [This game isn't fair. If you want fair, play checkers.]

I actually like asymmetrical characters and would gladly play a species with fewer attribute dice for the experience of the species. Similarly, if I am playing a species with more attribute dice, such as a noghri, which is the second highest attribute die race (second only to star dragons which should never be PVs anyway), I would want the real deal, not a balanced vanilla version.

But I totally get the other persepective.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I always use the standard species attribute +6D. An old line from some game that I cannot remember said something like, [This game isn't fair. If you want fair, play checkers.]

I actually like asymmetrical characters and would gladly play a species with fewer attribute dice for the experience of the species. Similarly, if I am playing a species with more attribute dice, such as a noghri, which is the second highest attribute die race (second only to star dragons which should never be PVs anyway), I would want the real deal, not a balanced vanilla version.

But I totally get the other persepective.

PCs are supposed to be exceptional characters. No PCs are "vanilla" compared to typical galactic citizens unless the hypothetical species is only a 6D species and you are playing by the +6D rule for PCs. A 12D PC would be very "vanilla". Also regarding the idea of playing of weak alien PCs, in my game a very huge story factor is that all aliens suffer discrimination in the Empire to some degree. So game balancing alien PCs to human ones only balances stats and doesn't remove the discrimination story factor in my game. What I'm saying is, aliens have it bad enough so shouldn't also be weaker PCs.

My game still embraces the inequities of evolution so typical members are species are not at all balanced to other species. Only PCs are balanced to each other, and PCs are very rare in the galaxy, representing much less than 1% of all galactic sentient inhabitants. All PCs are exceptional mbrs of their species, and there is no reason PCs should not be equally exceptional.

In RAW, a typical Noghri has 16D in attributes. So an 18D Noghri character is already 2D more than the "real deal." A 24D Noghri character is a munchkin's wet dream. That's your prerogative to allow that in your game, but I don't see how it is possible for any GM who thinks that would be ok to see the perspective of game balance.
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Ninja-Bear wrote:
Hmm, if the Templates are 18D total. 12D average plus 6D then I should revamp my Gamorrean Bounty Hunter as they are 11D stars per the rules.

I don't use the "average attribute dice +6D" for my game. Aliens species don't evolve equally so they can be all over the place, but I feel PCs should be equal so PCs in my game all have exactly 18D in attribute dice regardless of species. I recommend that to all GMs.

If a GM feels a species shouldn't have any 18D characters (such as when the species attribute maximums add up to less than 18D), then I think it is reasonable for a GM to forbid that species from being a PC. I used to stat Ewoks out as such but when I wanted to have an Ewok PC, I restatted their species maximums to allow for an 18D Ewok.

I actually have also had a player play an 18D Gamorrean.


Not sure you’d old to the PC being equal in Attribute dice for PC’s. Depending on Species their special abilities far out weigh Humans. Though to be fair WEG seemed to never have anything really consistent. Snivvian is 12D and they also have Adaptive Skin and Thick Skin.
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To clarify, I don’t really use the Average Stats that WEG has put out for some Aliens. I do look at the Attribute Range though if I’m modifying anything prebuilt.

And as to the Fluff, I’m not so much bothered by it as I am of some of the Mechanics for it. For example I like Gotals and their fluff however the mechanics of their special abilities are rather cumbersome. +3D in PER in these conditions but -1D in other conditions plus their other sense. FWIW I did think up of a piece of equipment for them to use. Radiation Dampers. They limit the Gotal to a +1D total and no minus. Basically they’re like Hearing Protection.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja-Bear wrote:
Whill wrote:
Ninja-Bear wrote:
Hmm, if the Templates are 18D total. 12D average plus 6D then I should revamp my Gamorrean Bounty Hunter as they are 11D stars per the rules.

I don't use the "average attribute dice +6D" for my game. Aliens species don't evolve equally so they can be all over the place, but I feel PCs should be equal so PCs in my game all have exactly 18D in attribute dice regardless of species. I recommend that to all GMs.

If a GM feels a species shouldn't have any 18D characters (such as when the species attribute maximums add up to less than 18D), then I think it is reasonable for a GM to forbid that species from being a PC. I used to stat Ewoks out as such but when I wanted to have an Ewok PC, I restatted their species maximums to allow for an 18D Ewok.

I actually have also had a player play an 18D Gamorrean.

Not sure you’d old to the PC being equal in Attribute dice for PC’s. Depending on Species their special abilities far out weigh Humans. Though to be fair WEG seemed to never have anything really consistent. Snivvian is 12D and they also have Adaptive Skin and Thick Skin.

I think "old" is a typo and you meant owe. I think you are saying that low attribute aliens have advantageous special abilities that make up for having low attribute.

RAW never had any system in place to that ever intended to do that, so that only just happens to be the case sometimes. Species are statted out according to their abilities, as they should be. Species as a whole should not be and are not balanced to each other. Some species have special abilities, and some don't. Some species have more attribute dice than humans, and some have less, as it should be. There is no correlation of special abilities to attribute dice.

Also, special abilities sometimes, but not always, correlate to skill dice values, and as I have said elsewhere, there really isn't any reliable equivalency for attribute dice and skill dice. D6 Space gives one, I think they equate 1D in attribute dice to 4D in skill dice, but I have argued elsewhere why that is a false equivalency. Attributes would really be worth more than four skill dice, and it varies per attribute.

Every playable species in my game has a special abilities package, even humans. I have endeavored to make every species abilities package roughly equivalent to +4D in skill dice. For species that have more than 4D in advantageous abilities, they are given some disadvantages to balance it out. For species that have less than 4D in special abilities, they are given bonus skill dice to balance it out, usually skills in categories that reflect the species fluff. Humans, who are described by fluff as being extremely adaptable, get +4D to be used in any skills of the player's choice. Some species package still include some freebies like infravision, etc.

In most cases the species abilities package is equally applicable to NPCs of the species so they get it too, but of course their attribute and skill dice may be different than PCs. There are a few abilities that are only applicable to PCs of the species, but those are only bonus skill dice.

So game mechanically, in my game all PCs of all species have 18D in attributes, and they start with 8D in skill dice, plus they have a "4D" species abilities package. So except for some story factors, all playable species make roughly equivalent PCs. Humans still have the edge for their species package being bonus skill dice they can use for any skills, and for being the dominant species in the Empire. In my experience, players tend to want to play aliens and I enjoy the 'pose as Imperials' trope too much to never be able to have it in the game. So even in my balanced system, players are still a bit incentivized to play humans. I have had to beg for at least one player to play a human in the campaign, but I refuse to have humans be drastically more powerful to accomplish that because I want to maintain a stronger sense game play balance.

Since species are and should be differently abled, the main problem with the RAW system is the "+6D" rule. PCs are the only characters that should be balanced to a good degree. It is baffling to me that some GMs are so lackadaisical about PC attribute dice amounts ('PCs of different species should just be whatever, man'), but they accomplish that only by maintaining a strict and hard adherence to the "+6D" rule. If that rule had never existed and RAW had instead always had an 'all PCs are 18D regardless of species dice' rule in RAW, no GMs would ever have come up with the '+6D' as a house rule and this discussion wouldn't be occurring. How easy it is to say, species can be whatever they are and PCs are 18D? That's easy so I would think that should be the lazy GM route.

Ninja-Bear wrote:
To clarify, I don’t really use the Average Stats that WEG has put out for some Aliens. I do look at the Attribute Range though if I’m modifying anything prebuilt.

As it should be. Typical stats are an FYI. Even in RAW, there was never any rule for NPCs of species. You can have NPCs with less than typical attribute dice or more than typical. You can even have rare NPCs with more than 18D of attributes, if the species maximums allow for that possibility. It is a failure of some GMs and even game authors to have misunderstood RAW by square-pegging all NPCs into having either typical or PC-level attribute dice. The only hard mechanic of the typical dice stat is the '+6D rule' for creating PCs, which I chuck.

Ninja-Bear wrote:
And as to the Fluff, I’m not so much bothered by it as I am of some of the Mechanics for it. For example I like Gotals and their fluff however the mechanics of their special abilities are rather cumbersome. +3D in PER in these conditions but -1D in other conditions plus their other sense. FWIW I did think up of a piece of equipment for them to use. Radiation Dampers. They limit the Gotal to a +1D total and no minus. Basically they’re like Hearing Protection.

The beauty of the system is, if you aren't happy with rules for species abilities then you can always tweak them to your liking. I also restat species typical dice and attribute ranges to better reflect the films and fluff as I see it.

Back in the 90s I never worked out Gotal stats to anything that I liked, so I've never had them as a playable species (and I don't really use them as NPCs either but I don't have anything against them as NPCs so should use them). Thanks for your suggestions.

I did come up with some tech that helps correct Bith vision, still not to normal human vision but better than Bith normal.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play in a group with a Gotal among our ranks. The special rules are often just not used, except as a plot device at the discretion of the GM. I think this is about the best you can do without making it more confusing.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill I find that you said that species shouldn’t be balanced against everyone (which is fine) but then having Players have to be balanced (which in and of itself is fine) to be contradicting. Fwiw I’ve played game systems where (in theory) everyone is balanced and others where no one is at all and I’ve enjoyed each.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja-Bear wrote:
Whill I find that you said that species shouldn’t be balanced against everyone (which is fine) but then having Players have to be balanced (which in and of itself is fine) to be contradicting.

What is contradictory about saying PCs need game balanced to each other but NPCs do not? This is the norm of most all RPGs.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seconded. PCs are not representative of galactic demographics. It's entirely possible for one species to be, on average, superior to another in every respect; Star Dragons are an excellent example. Even NPC Star Dragons start with 18D in Attributes, plus they can fly, survive in space, and have ~1/3 chance of being Force Sensitive. Very few other species can even approach that, never mind match it.

But a GM would be unlikely to allow a Star Dragon PC, and for the exact same reasons. The point is not that species should be balanced, but that the characters be balanced against each other.
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Ninja-Bear
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Seconded. PCs are not representative of galactic demographics. It's entirely possible for one species to be, on average, superior to another in every respect; Star Dragons are an excellent example. Even NPC Star Dragons start with 18D in Attributes, plus they can fly, survive in space, and have ~1/3 chance of being Force Sensitive. Very few other species can even approach that, never mind match it.

But a GM would be unlikely to allow a Star Dragon PC, and for the exact same reasons. The point is not that species should be balanced, but that the characters be balanced against each other.


Yeah see the mess that is created by not having a eye on Races being balanced? Now you create the situation of why a PC is less effective than a typical of his species. Not because of Story but of “Balance”.
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