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Naaman
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 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | I agree. Unless CRM is saying that a Jedi character should get more CP than others as a roleplaying reward (?) Which would be one way to balance it out. |
No. My argument is that players who try to run Jedi as spellcasters with laser swords should actually get less CP than others, and only earn similar amounts if they roleplay as though the character is trying to adhere to the Jedi code. I rather like Zahn's take from the Hand of Thrawn duology, where Luke actually backs away from actively using the Force in favor of "listening" to it. As a GM, I'd award more CP to a Jedi who primarily used his Sense abilities, and only used his Control and Alter abilities when absolutely necessary. Basically, the Jedi improves his power best by minimizing active usage of it, in favor of listening and trusting in it.
The only buff I'd give to a Jedi PC is incorporating the Force Attribute. |
I see.
The issue there is that it pigeon holes characters into playing one kind of Jedi (the "Luke Skywalker" kind) as opposed to a Mace Windu kind or a Aayla Secura kind, or totally original kind, etc.
I don't see a reason why a character concept has to perfectly match some preexisting character's approach. It sort of defeats the purpose, IMO, of making up your own character (for me, the personality, motivations, principles and such of a character are one aspect of the role playing character. The other is the rolls). I don't want every Jedi to feel the same when playing the game. In an all Jedi party, for example, the healer better have lots of Alter. And in a system where your skill selection creates an opportunity cost (raising Alter means I can't raise Sense this time around), it takes the healer concept and penalizes it relative to the sense-y Jedi.
It's a similar rationale to saying that a smuggler PC who applies the same philosophy to smuggling as Han Solo should get more rewards than one who doesn't.
The Jedi Code is what it is. On the other hand, the one Jedi who bucked the system was able to unlock the mystery of how to "become more powerful than you can ever imagine." Even taught Yoda a thing or two from beyond the grave.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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You can still be a warrior-type Jedi and only use active powers when necessary. Even the prequel Jedi don't generally engage in massive displays of power until the situation requires it.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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In that case, I agree. But it then comes down to the GM's pacing and storytelling style. The fact that Jedi aren't "allowed" to pick fights (for example) has always been enough to dissuade the types of players who like to power game or hack and slash.
But that's in the groups I've played with. YMMV.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | There are a lot of Force templates so I don't think the game designers were trying to discourage Force users. As has been pointed out elsewhere, high level Force users can way overpower the other PCs in RAW, so the game designers' solution seems to have been to seriously nerf them at first. Not all campaigns even get to those levels. And even if they do, that only balances them out in the middle, so they are still unbalanced before and after that time period.
A better solution is to start Force users out better than RAW and keep advancement slow. The Force attribute makes that possible. (And I also start all PCs better than RAW, so PCs are more capable right off the bat, Force users or not.) |
It's kind of like mages in adnd (1st or 2nd edition), where mages are real weak up to say level 4-5, but by level 8+ they can overpower other pcs..
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Good discussion here.
Yeah, my hope would be to not be so weak starting out, but then I'm not looking to outpace and outclass the other PCs later, either.
In my SW game, I always used the Jedi code as a balancing factor as well. Most Jedi should be much more defensive focused, way less of a "murder hobo", and even amongst a group of good characters, they should be an example of honor and grace. Much like a samurai.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | There are a lot of Force templates so I don't think the game designers were trying to discourage Force users. As has been pointed out elsewhere, high level Force users can way overpower the other PCs in RAW, so the game designers' solution seems to have been to seriously nerf them at first. Not all campaigns even get to those levels. And even if they do, that only balances them out in the middle, so they are still unbalanced before and after that time period.
A better solution is to start Force users out better than RAW and keep advancement slow. The Force attribute makes that possible. (And I also start all PCs better than RAW, so PCs are more capable right off the bat, Force users or not.) |
For whatever it's worth, that hasn't been my experience at all.
I've played through many campaigns wherein PCs had several skills in the double digits... except the Jedi (my character). Granted, die totals were still pretty high. I once had a Jedi with 11D+2 in Lightsaber and 7D-8D in each force skill (although the character's highest skill was brawling at 13D+2). Another Jedi I played whose theme was to be "perfectly balanced" as a Jedi, with no more than a pip separating any of her primary skills (those being Lightsaber, Control, Sense, Alter). She got up to the 9D range in all 4 of those skills. Other PCs were in the 10D-12D range with their main skills.
We never had any "balance" issues come up.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | It's kind of like mages in adnd (1st or 2nd edition), where mages are real weak up to say level 4-5, but by level 8+ they can overpower other pcs.. |
Except that at 1st level, a mage can actually use magic in the game. Heck, at lest they get Magic Missile to work with. Having 1D in force skills is quite literally worthless in D6 SW.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | Good discussion here.
Yeah, my hope would be to not be so weak starting out, but then I'm not looking to outpace and outclass the other PCs later, either.
In my SW game, I always used the Jedi code as a balancing factor as well. Most Jedi should be much more defensive focused, way less of a "murder hobo", and even amongst a group of good characters, they should be an example of honor and grace. Much like a samurai. |
Maybe we should import the jedi code for other 'templates, to eliminate the murder-hoboisms out there.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Maybe we should import the jedi code for other 'templates, to eliminate the murder-hoboisms out there. |
There's no in-universe justification for that, though. Even the DSP mechanic is built entirely around how a character uses the Force, and not a general measurement of good or evil. I wouldn't mind a better defined framework for classification of morality in characters, but pigeonholing everyone into the Jedi Code is too much.
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Whill wrote: | There are a lot of Force templates so I don't think the game designers were trying to discourage Force users. As has been pointed out elsewhere, high level Force users can way overpower the other PCs in RAW, so the game designers' solution seems to have been to seriously nerf them at first. Not all campaigns even get to those levels. And even if they do, that only balances them out in the middle, so they are still unbalanced before and after that time period.
A better solution is to start Force users out better than RAW and keep advancement slow. The Force attribute makes that possible. (And I also start all PCs better than RAW, so PCs are more capable right off the bat, Force users or not.) |
For whatever it's worth, that hasn't been my experience at all.
I've played through many campaigns wherein PCs had several skills in the double digits... except the Jedi (my character). Granted, die totals were still pretty high. I once had a Jedi with 11D+2 in Lightsaber and 7D-8D in each force skill (although the character's highest skill was brawling at 13D+2). Another Jedi I played whose theme was to be "perfectly balanced" as a Jedi, with no more than a pip separating any of her primary skills (those being Lightsaber, Control, Sense, Alter). She got up to the 9D range in all 4 of those skills. Other PCs were in the 10D-12D range with their main skills.
We never had any "balance" issues come up. |
That hasn't been my experience either, because I've never let that issue happen. But over the last couple decades, many GMs have stated the game system falls apart at high levels, not just Force characters. I can see how that could happen, even though it has never happened to me. I can also see how high level Force users could overshadow other PCs, but I have no interest in putting that to the test. Your experience with those film protagonist level PCs not seeming unbalanced doesn't negate the many GMs who have said their game did get unbalanced. So as I said, it can happen. And we were speculating as to game designer intentions. I think there is a good chance they saw that Force character powers could get out of hand so nerfed them at the beginning, which doesn't really solve the issue. But we are only speculating as to game designer intentions anyway.
Did your campaign's Jedi start out as RAW (weaker than the other characters), and eventually evened out when they got advanced? Or did your campaign's Jedi start out better than RAW, and things stayed evened out? I'm just curious. I've never felt any PCs need to be that powerful to have a fulfilling campaign that builds to an epic climax.
In my campaigns, no PCs ever get double digit skills, except for maybe a single skill specialization. When PCs get a signature skill up to 8D, they start to get other signature skills up to that level. And character advancement is slower than average in my game so things never get out of hand. It has been my experience of many campaigns, a story can be epic without skill dice being double digits. The issue at hand was more about Jedi starting levels, which we agreed were weak in RAW.
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Maybe we should import the jedi code for other 'templates, to eliminate the murder-hoboisms out there. |
There's no in-universe justification for that, though. Even the DSP mechanic is built entirely around how a character uses the Force, and not a general measurement of good or evil. I wouldn't mind a better defined framework for classification of morality in characters, but pigeonholing everyone into the Jedi Code is too much. |
For non-Force characters declaring an exceptionally evil action, I have threatened DSPs. They aren't only for Force PCs or else non-Force characters wouldn't even have them. DSPs are just easier for Force players to earn.
However, when I was expanding upon CP bonuses for good roleplaying, I wasn't saying that all Force characters should be the same or the Jedi code is the single defining guide for roleplaying. Every PC (Force or not) has a Personality and Objective write-up on their sheet. Players not playing to that mean they are aren't playing their character well. Most characters should evolve over time but it should be a progression that seems natural from the events of the campaign and the basis they are starting with.
I've never ran a murder-hobo game or PCs, and I never will. I think it is quite absurd we are discussing how to prevent campaigns or even characters from turning into that. The easiest and most obvious way is by the GM saying up front before the campaign begins, No murder-hobos. In my game, the type of campaign, and character concepts (including character arcs) are always discussed up front. It is totally beyond my experience for players to be deviating drastically from the characters we agreed that they would be playing. If a GM has need to introduce game mechanics to prevent murderhoboism, then the GM is not a very good one.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | For non-Force characters declaring an exceptionally evil action, I have threatened DSPs. They aren't only for Force PCs or else non-Force characters wouldn't even have them. DSPs are just easier for Force players to earn. |
As far as I'm aware, the only way a non-FS PC can earn a DSP under the RAW is to commit an evil action while spending a Force Point. I tend to agree with your interpretation, but at the same time, it's worth recognizing what WEG did and didn't say and, again under the RAW, the emphasis is pretty firmly on Light Force Use vs Dark Force Use.
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | For non-Force characters declaring an exceptionally evil action, I have threatened DSPs. They aren't only for Force PCs or else non-Force characters wouldn't even have them. DSPs are just easier for Force players to earn. |
As far as I'm aware, the only way a non-FS PC can earn a DSP under the RAW is to commit an evil action while spending a Force Point. I tend to agree with your interpretation, but at the same time, it's worth recognizing what WEG did and didn't say and, again under the RAW, the emphasis is pretty firmly on Light Force Use vs Dark Force Use. |
According to RAW, there is another way for non-Force characters to earn a DSP. See R&E p.86. Both Force-sensitive and not characters may "Call Upon The Dark Side" which requires a Perception roll to accomplish. If successful, then the character is granted a FP for the action and earns a DSP for using the Dark Side.
Presumably, all the non-Force-sensitive NPCs with DSPs in their RAW stats were thought to have gotten them through either spending an FP on evil or calling upon the Dark Side to get an FP (even though those past situations were never roleplayed out). Personally, I only really use DSP rules for PCs because I play NPCs as good or bad as they should be, and in effect DSPs are mainly deterrents to players losing their characters.
I remember one time where a non-Force Wookiee mercenary was escaping enemies through an apartment building and broke into an apartment to find a frail old woman standing in the way between him and the external window he wanted to bust out of. The player first said he would just plow through her. I told him she had 1D Strength and that would probably kill her or seriously injure her, earning him a DSP. He then reconsidered, stating he instead walked over to her frig unit, got out her 2-liter jug of milk and chugged the whole thing, then went around her and busted out the window. He did not get a DSP for breaking two large holes in her apartment and stealing her milk. The player later completely agreed with my call, saying killing the innocent old lady would have been pure evil.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
Did your campaign's Jedi start out as RAW (weaker than the other characters), and eventually evened out when they got advanced? Or did your campaign's Jedi start out better than RAW, and things stayed evened out? I'm just curious. I've never felt any PCs need to be that powerful to have a fulfilling campaign that builds to an epic climax.
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At first we did RAW using the character creation rules, and it was 18 attribute dice, allocating 0D to force skills. So, everyone was on equal footing, so to speak, other than the fact that gaining force skills would require a very heavy up front cost (or else be extremely slow such that by the time you had them at a reasonable level, you didn't need them).
In other words, doing it this way was still a very slow start relative to other characters.
Then we just gave the first 3 force dice for free after a while since it was taking too long for force users to actually do anything remotely useful with the force. After a bunch of sessions, force users eventually started being able to use their force skills to affect the outcome of an encounter (at about the 4D level).
Essentially, despite the free 3D, the useless force skills absorb the first 54-66 character points while other PCs are raising skills they actually get to use (if you choose to allocate 0D, add 30 CPs to the cost, assuming you have a teacher. If not, double all the numbers to a total approaching 200 CPs before force skills are useable, and that's not accounting for any other skills you might want to raise).
In terms of relative power levels, it was well understood that the high level Jedi character had by far the most combat potential in terms of volume of dice rolled (I'm talking about lightsaber combat, RAW, here).
However, a Jedi is extremely limited in terms of making ranged attacks and other aspects of combat. While a Jedi is very difficult to shoot to death (by virtue of LSC working the way it does at high levels), everyone else would just blow a CP to boost their dodge or soak roll if they thought they might have failed the roll (they could "afford" to spend them relative to the Jedi, who typically has more skills to manage during character advancement).
Even if using the force to make a ranged attack, at that point, it's just a skill roll (alter), which, game-mecahnics wise, is no different than rolling blaster. Except that (in my experience) a non-force PC's blaster skill level has invariably been significantly higher than any force using PC's alter skill.
EDIT to add: when using telekinesis to make a ranged attack (which, by RAW rewards a DSP without regard to context... so, is a balancing factor) the force user must also take a MAP to roll control to aim the object (a further mitigation, should an unscrupulous Jedi decide to do it).
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | Good discussion here.
Yeah, my hope would be to not be so weak starting out, but then I'm not looking to outpace and outclass the other PCs later, either.
In my SW game, I always used the Jedi code as a balancing factor as well. Most Jedi should be much more defensive focused, way less of a "murder hobo", and even amongst a group of good characters, they should be an example of honor and grace. Much like a samurai. |
Or perhaps...
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/d6/6f/ced66fd35379825a06fd0fd519043faf.jpg
Done as a URL since my Google-fu isn't strong enough to search for the same image in a smaller size.
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