The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Limiting Ammo for Capital-Scale Missile Weapons
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Ships, Vehicles, Equipment, and Tech -> Limiting Ammo for Capital-Scale Missile Weapons
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 15464
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:32 pm    Post subject: Limiting Ammo for Capital-Scale Missile Weapons Reply with quote

In my various stat re-writes, I've tried to balance out the Missile & Torpedo Launchers by giving them lower Fire Rates than Turbolasers and Ion Cannon. However, with my latest update to Heavy Ordnance, making them even more formidable, I think it needs another nerf/rebalancing. An obvious solution is limiting the ammunition supply (since missile reloads take up a lot more room than compressed blaster gas), but an accurate system on a capital ship would Ammo values in the dozens or hundreds, and I don't really want to add missile ammo bean counting to everything else a GM has to deal with in combat.

A while back, I suggested a Ammo Dice house rule, and I'm thinking of introducing this to the stats of the capital ships I've done that are equipped with ordnance launchers. Here's the text of the rule, modified from the above link:
    All Missile Weapons will have an Ammunition Rating, listed as 1D, 2D, 3D, etc...

    On a Wild Die result when firing Ordnance, roll the Launcher's Ammunition against Very Easy Difficulty.

    On a Success, the Launcher can continue firing; on a Failure, it has run out of ammunition, and can no longer be used until the ship is replenished.

    However, each Success increases the Difficulty for the next Ammunition roll (from Very Easy to Easy, Easy to Moderate and so on).

    Because launchers can be loaded with multiple types of ordnance, each type of available ordnance will have its own Ammunition listing, with more advanced or rare weapons having a lower Dice value. Some extremely rare weapons may even have a rating of 0D to represent their very limited supply.

    In addition, a captain may choose to fire a single weapon, rather than a full volley (such as launching a handful of homing anti-starfighter missiles at a fleeing ship). If the captain fires 25% or less of his available launchers in a given fire arc, any Wild Dice Failures by +1 instead of +5.

With that as a framework, I'll be going through the various capital ship stats I've posted and giving all the Ordnance Launchers an Ammo rating, which will then be applied to the above rules.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mamatried
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1539
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would this apply to non capital ships with some of these systems.
Some starship weapons that fits on fighters and light freighters are in fact captial scale weapons in damage at least, like the light turbo lasers and the relevant to this thread the launchers.

I belive the stats for a Proton Torpedo Launcher is the same regardless of the size of the vessel.
Millenium falcon has launchers, the damage is statted as captial scale.

Are you also considering a limitation of actual rounds fired, I can not imagine the falcon being able to carry more than 2 maybe at the extrme maximum 4 torpedos, but I easily see an ISD carry 72 for each of his multiple launchers.

will the advanced light freighter equipped with a light turbolaser be able to store enough power to have the sma e number of shots as the light ttubo laser of the larger ISD etc.

is this something you have considered?

Love the rule suggestion by the way, I find it to make a lot of sense, and I can even see it fireing "duds" with this sytem and I like that
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 15464
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For most Starfighter-Scale ships, it'd be sufficient to stick with fixed numbers for ammunition counts, as that's pretty easy to keep track of.

However, a light freighter converted into a gunship by adding multiple turbolasers would be a good fit for this rule.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dr. Bidlo
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 245

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am intrigued by this house rule. I have been avoiding letting my PCs use capital ships with missile weapons because the tendency to use them like default turbolasers due to their high damage and bypass of shields. I doo need to check the threads here though, so see what else you and others have done with missiles...

You are right - counting Missiles can quickly become unbearable, especially for a ship like a Victory class SD with 80 tubes.

How has this rule been working out in your games? Do you find your players are more conservative in their use of missile knowing any launch could be the last?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2249
Location: San Antonio

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did I miss this?

However, you might go with a two-tiered system, or just "failure" and "critical failure".

Failure means that a particular battery has run out, and out of service for the fight. However, give them a few hours to shift their supply, and they can be up and running.

Critical failure would mean they are OUT. That weapon will become non-functional on the ship in just a few shots, and is completely out right here.
_________________
"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 15464
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I am intrigued by this house rule. I have been avoiding letting my PCs use capital ships with missile weapons because the tendency to use them like default turbolasers due to their high damage and bypass of shields. I do need to check the threads here though, so see what else you and others have done with missiles...

In general, what I've done as far as capital-scale missile weapons is to reduce their fire rate (1/3 or 1/4, depending on size, so they can only fire every 15-20 seconds) and make a large portion of their range and fire control dependent on achieving a Sensor Lock on the target (basically using Sensors in Focus mode to designate a target for them). Since Sensors can be jammed, it adds a whole additional layer of challenge for ordnance; if you can get a good Lock, you have a decent chance of getting in a hit, but if you can't, you have to close the range and fire them on internal guidance.

I've also changed them around so that missiles don't ignore shields, and torpedoes are special in that they are encased in an energy field that adds resistance to point defenses and allows them to ignore up to 3D of Shields. They also have a wide variety of warheads so that they can be tailored to achieve specific effects.


Quote:
You are right - counting Missiles can quickly become unbearable, especially for a ship like a Victory class SD with 80 tubes.

How has this rule been working out in your games? Do you find your players are more conservative in their use of missile knowing any launch could be the last?

Well, again, I haven't had a lot of opportunities to sit down at a gaming table in a while; this is mostly theoretical at this point. However, if you're interested in testing it out, I'll be more than happy to assist with design.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 15464
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
However, you might go with a two-tiered system, or just "failure" and "critical failure".

At the moment, I'm thinking in terms of Getting Low (you have enough for one more shot) and Unable to Fire (either ammo ran out or some sort of failure in the reloading mechanism means the launchers are out of service for the remainder of the battle.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dr. Bidlo
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 245

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I am intrigued by this house rule. I have been avoiding letting my PCs use capital ships with missile weapons because the tendency to use them like default turbolasers due to their high damage and bypass of shields. I do need to check the threads here though, so see what else you and others have done with missiles...

In general, what I've done as far as capital-scale missile weapons is to reduce their fire rate (1/3 or 1/4, depending on size, so they can only fire every 15-20 seconds) and make a large portion of their range and fire control dependent on achieving a Sensor Lock on the target (basically using Sensors in Focus mode to designate a target for them). Since Sensors can be jammed, it adds a whole additional layer of challenge for ordnance; if you can get a good Lock, you have a decent chance of getting in a hit, but if you can't, you have to close the range and fire them on internal guidance.

I've also changed them around so that missiles don't ignore shields, and torpedoes are special in that they are encased in an energy field that adds resistance to point defenses and allows them to ignore up to 3D of Shields. They also have a wide variety of warheads so that they can be tailored to achieve specific effects.


Quote:
You are right - counting Missiles can quickly become unbearable, especially for a ship like a Victory class SD with 80 tubes.

How has this rule been working out in your games? Do you find your players are more conservative in their use of missile knowing any launch could be the last?

Well, again, I haven't had a lot of opportunities to sit down at a gaming table in a while; this is mostly theoretical at this point. However, if you're interested in testing it out, I'll be more than happy to assist with design.


YES THIS! That is exactly what I have been doing - sensor lock with Focus and a Fire Rate of 1/4. The only additional thing I have done is give the Missiles a Space and Atmosphere rating. They launch at Cautios speed and increase one speed level every round until they reach their maximum range. This encourages waiting to launch missile at close range so there is no time for the target to evade or shoot the missiles. Of course that required me to come up with piloting stats and speeds for the Missiles. I will post my write up shortly and would love your input. While our opinions do not always align 100%, your logic is always sound and your previous posts have swayed my opinion on several occassions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 15464
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the complement.

I did originally want to give missiles and torpedoes a speed value, I decided against it as it would be one more thing for the GM to have to track insofar as rolling Piloting against Terrain, making Maneuvers to pursue targeted ships, etc. Ultimately it just seemed simpler to just treat them like weapons and go with the assumption that they were always going to be faster and more maneuverable than whatever they were fired at.

One possibility that might fit with giving them Speed Values would be with my Dogfighting rules, where Piloting + Maneuverability is used to determine positioning, and then Piloting + 1E Speed Code (which is added to the Space on all my ship stats, with a different value for Atmosphere if the ship performs better in one or the other) is used to determine range. If you were to give the missile a Speed Code in the 7D-9D range, you could treat the Missile like a ship that is constantly trying to achieve a Range of 0, at which point it detonates...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 15464
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coming back around to this...

I've been pondering over how to factor in the size of a missile / torpedo volley with ammunition consumption, and I had an idea. Under the original concept, I proposed starting with Very Easy Difficulty, then stacking based on Wild Dice results.

What I'm thinking instead is to have the original Difficulty start at 0, then increase it by +1 for every Wild Dice Failure. Then, if the ship uses any Battery Dice to add to the attack, all of the Battery Dice individually count as Wild Dice for the purposes of calculating Ammo Consumption. This increases the effectiveness of a salvo, with an attendant increase in the possibility of running out of ammo before the battle is over.

For example, a Victory I fires its starboard ordnance launchers in a volley with 4D+2 Battery Dice. The Wild Dice is rolled normally and gets a 1, but if any of the four Battery Dice come up 1, then they get added to the total as well.

It's also possible for a specific ordnance type (usually something rare and advanced like a smart anti-starfighter missile) to have an Ammo Rating of 0D, which means the ship has such a limited supply that the first time it gets a Wild One, it runs out.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Ships, Vehicles, Equipment, and Tech All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0