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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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Location: Norway
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 Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | While discussing moves in conjunction with multiple actions, when does the movement occur? It is as one of the character's actions to be done when chosen by the character or is it completely throughout the turn while the characters other actions are being performed. If I take three actions and decide to run at Fast speed, do I dart a full 20 meters in a flash, possibly outrunning someone before they can catch me or do I move z certain distance each "action". This gets very funky when dealing with ships and vehicles at high and all-out speeds, as they are moving steadily, not in fits and starts. |
I allow free movement and one action, like running to cover while shooting.
however I do allow movement above "normal" when the character decides on multiple actions, as in running and shooting twice. he can move max 10, but if he shoots only once he can move 20 if he so chooses.
I also give a -1D to the skill when running at full speed and shooting etc. the movemnt however counts if you will as a free acton.
this penalty is cumulative with MAP meaning the character is running at speed 10 and shoots 2 shots, MAP-1D and -1D for shooting while running
total -2D (normal MAP here would be -1D, but I add -1D due to the difficulty of moving fast/Running and shotting)
I simplyfy this to make combat faster |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:31 pm Post subject: Actions during movement |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | One thing I have noticed though, especially from the last game I ran, my players tend to declare a number of actions and not use them. Fir some reason, they get hung up on the free cautious move action. They either think it takes and action or think they can take a Mive using an action IN ADDITION to their free cautious move. I am trying to reinforce there is only ever one move in a turn, but the distance is based on the 'level' of speed.Speed. |
Forgive me if we've talked about this already and I've forgotten.
If it helps, I tell my players to think of movement more in terms of distance. How much distance do you want to cover this round? Then the distance determines the speed required to get there, and the required speed determines free or MAP-counting action and difficulty of the MAP-counting action.
The other thing that may help is, in my game you can't dodge without moving, so dodging includes a free move action. So free movement can happen with a MAPped reaction.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | As GM, I tend to agree, and would go as far as to say that a character MUST be able to move in order to dodge or must already be in cover. |
Related question: should a character performing a Full Dodge be able to make more than a Cautious Move? After all, if the only thing you're doing that round is dashing/diving for the nearest piece of cover, one should be able to cover quite a bit of ground in five seconds. |
I had forgotten about this. Hmm, I'll have to think on that (Full Reaction allowing more than free movement).
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | While discussing moves in conjunction with multiple actions, when does the movement occur? It is as one of the character's actions to be done when chosen by the character or is it completely throughout the turn while the characters other actions are being performed. If I take three actions and decide to run at Fast speed, do I dart a full 20 meters in a flash, possibly outrunning someone before they can catch me or do I move z certain distance each "action". |
You'll remember that Blue Vader had "moves," where each one moved you the equivalent distance of what we now call a "cruising speed" movement, and it took place in the space of an action. For faster movements had to be spread out over the course of the round (multiple moves meant multiple actions). The problem with that was being nickeled and dimed with MAPs if you wanted to move fast (especially three moves or the max four moves per round).
So in R&E they created speeds so that each movement is a single action so counted as such for MAP calculation, but the speed determines the distance covered and difficulty of the movement action (only), so a faster speed makes that action more difficult but it doesn't affect other actions. That traded the MAP problem for a different problem: the unrealism that how all movement, even the distance covered by all-out movement, occurs in the space of a single action, and thus in between other actions. I've known a couple GMs whose reaction to that was to go back to Blue Vader movement because they'd rather have the MAP problem.
My solution, a tweak to R&E, eliminates both problems, but brings in a third factor that is not a problem for me but may be for other GMs. In my game, non-movement MAPped actions can happen during free and even MAPped movement, if it is reasonable for them to be concurrent. Like running across an hallway and firing a blaster down the hallway. So movement can be spread out through the other actions. The total MAP costs are the same as in RAW, but all of a character's movement for a round doesn't happen in the space of a single action. So I just have to judge where a character is along the intended total path for each action along the way. There are mental arithmetics and judgement calls involved, but it isn't any problem for me. I understand this isn't a viable solution for everyone.
| Quote: | | This gets very funky when dealing with ships and vehicles at high and all-out speeds, as they are moving steadily, not in fits and starts. |
In RAW, definitely, but what I said above applies to vehicles in my game too. Spaceships other vehicles sometimes have three dimensions to move in, so with my method it is often easier to justify things than characters or vehicles moving on a 2D plane.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:38 am Post subject: |
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Okay, so I guess this might belong under house rules since the RAW is silent on the execution of the movement. Whill, I am not sure I fully understand your solution, so I will go back and read it a few more times to see if it clicks.
What I have been doing is when it is a character's turn and the character is moving, they can move up to 10 (standard human) meters and take their "first" action. If they are moving at fast speed, they get to move another maximum 10 meters and take their "second" action, if any. When moving all-out, you cannot do anything else, but they move 10 meters during each round of actions until everyone has taken all of their actions or the character has moved the full distance. The move is still an action for MAPs but it in concurrent with other actions and is capped at the character's Move value per round of actions.
Is this what you were explaining, Whill?
In the case of vehicles, all moving vehicles or ship move in this fashion first, then all take first actions, followed by more movement, if appropriate, then second actions, and so on. It is still not perfect though. Sometimes I incrementally break up all movement to match the fasted moving (based on speed kevel) character or vehicle. For example, if a freighter (Space 4) is moving at cautious speed and a TIE Fighter (Space10) is moving all-out, then before first actions, the freighter would move 1 SU while the TIE moves 10 SU, then first actions, then the freighter would move 1 SU while the TIE moves 10 SU, then second actions, then the freighter would move 1 SU while the TIE moves 10 SU, third actions, then the freighter would move 1 SU while the TIE moves 10 SU, followed by any remaining action until finished for the round. I have found for me this works and prevents movement shenanigans. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | What I have been doing is when it is a character's turn and the character is moving, they can move up to 10 (standard human) meters and take their "first" action. If they are moving at fast speed, they get to move another maximum 10 meters and take their "second" action, if any. When moving all-out, you cannot do anything else, but they move 10 meters during each round of actions until everyone has taken all of their actions or the character has moved the full distance. The move is still an action for MAPs but it in concurrent with other actions and is capped at the character's Move value per round of actions....
In the case of vehicles, all moving vehicles or ship move in this fashion first, then all take first actions, followed by more movement, if appropriate, then second actions, and so on. It is still not perfect though. Sometimes I incrementally break up all movement to match the fasted moving (based on speed kevel) character or vehicle. For example, if a freighter (Space 4) is moving at cautious speed and a TIE Fighter (Space10) is moving all-out, then before first actions, the freighter would move 1 SU while the TIE moves 10 SU, then first actions, then the freighter would move 1 SU while the TIE moves 10 SU, then second actions, then the freighter would move 1 SU while the TIE moves 10 SU, third actions, then the freighter would move 1 SU while the TIE moves 10 SU, followed by any remaining action until finished for the round. I have found for me this works and prevents movement shenanigans.
...Is this what you were explaining, Whill? |
Yes, that is similar to how I do it. The same general concept. I spread the movement out throughout the round, so other actions happen concurrent to the movement. Difficulty and MAPs are calculated normally for R&E (movement counting as one action if not free movement). If a player wants a character to move and do other actions in the round, when it comes to their first turn, they tell me the total number of actions, their first non-movement action, and then their move action which can sometimes also begin at that time, if it makes sense with the other action. I also allow characters to start moving later in the round if they don't declare/start movement with their first action, but the later they start movement in a round is less distance they can cover due to less time to do it in.
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | Okay, so I guess this might belong under house rules since the RAW is silent on the execution of the movement. Whill, I am not sure I fully understand your solution, so I will go back and read it a few more times to see if it clicks. |
RAW is not silent on it. In R&E, all movement for a round technically happens in the space of a character's single action. Yes, that is extremely unrealistic, but it serves as their solution to the nickel-and-dime MAP problem of Blue Vader movement, while also being easier to do. Our methods keep the MAP problem resolved but it is a bit more complex than RAW.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:22 am Post subject: |
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A thought...
Would it make sense to require that, should a character choose to make a Move action during a combat round, that Move has to be the first action taken, and any other actions be taken on the Moving character's next turn?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:23 am Post subject: |
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That depends. Are they wanting to DO something, THEN move?
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:45 am Post subject: |
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Right.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Would it make sense to require that, should a character choose to make a Move action during a combat round, that Move has to be the first action taken, and any other actions be taken on the Moving character's next turn? |
In my system, no, there is no reason to strictly restrict movement to being declared and started on the character's first action, but it will often be in the character's best interest to declare it sooner rather than later. The max distance possibly travelled in a round is based on All-Out taking the entire round (because you can do no other actions during All-Out). If the character is starting a movement later in the round, then they have less time for the movement and thus may need to travel faster to make the same distance. A faster speed means a higher difficulty. So there are many situations where starting a movement sooner in the round will minimize the difficulty.
It isn't always possible to start moving first. A character may have to do something that can't be done while running for their first action, and then start moving afterward. But there is an incentive inherent in the system for movements to be declared as early in the round as possible.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree that requiring movement first could result in some undesirable situations that are not immediately apparent. Also if you are going to shoot and move and your opponent only shoots, you have to move and get shot at before you shoot, even when you win initiative. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:35 am Post subject: |
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I ask because I'm thinking in terms of exactly how much of a round a Move action takes up. IMO, the evidence strongly indicates that a Move action as portrayed in the RAW takes up an entire round, and is more an indicator of pace. Note, for example, the Acceleration/Deceleration rules on pg. 102 of 2R&E: a character moving All-Out in one round, must make a minimum Cruising Move in the following round. Thus, since the Move takes up the entire round, any Skill roll associated with said Move should arguably be made first. Say, for instance, that the character declares two actions: run out from behind cover across a corridor to a connecting hallway, and fire a blaster shot at the stormtroopers down the hall while running. Chronologically, the Move action has to occur first.
As an aside, it occurs to me that some sort of "Dash" action (i.e. sprinting short distances, like from one piece of Cover to another, without using the entire round to do so) could potentially exist parallel to the RAW Movement rules.
Some expansion of accel/decel rules might be in order, too, so that characters can have options, such as using Preparation to gain an extra Acceleration step, or using a Sliding Maneuver to come to a complete stop at the end of an All-Out Move.
Anyway, that's all I have for tonight.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As an aside, it occurs to me that some sort of "Dash" action (i.e. sprinting short distances, like from one piece of Cover to another, without using the entire round to do so) could potentially exist parallel to the RAW Movement rules. |
IT does. A half move is free.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | I ask because I'm thinking in terms of exactly how much of a round a Move action takes up. IMO, the evidence strongly indicates that a Move action as portrayed in the RAW takes up an entire round, and is more an indicator of pace. Note, for example, the Acceleration/Deceleration rules on pg. 102 of 2R&E: a character moving All-Out in one round, must make a minimum Cruising Move in the following round. Thus, since the Move takes up the entire round, any Skill roll associated with said Move should arguably be made first. Say, for instance, that the character declares two actions: run out from behind cover across a corridor to a connecting hallway, and fire a blaster shot at the stormtroopers down the hall while running. Chronologically, the Move action has to occur first.
As an aside, it occurs to me that some sort of "Dash" action (i.e. sprinting short distances, like from one piece of Cover to another, without using the entire round to do so) could potentially exist parallel to the RAW Movement rules.
Some expansion of accel/decel rules might be in order, too, so that characters can have options, such as using Preparation to gain an extra Acceleration step, or using a Sliding Maneuver to come to a complete stop at the end of an All-Out Move.
Anyway, that's all I have for tonight. |
I agree with your thoughts about the sequence - which is why I have the movement to occurring during the actions at a distance no more than the character or vehicle's move during each "action" but the move itself occurs during all other declared actions.
So, at the start of a character's turn, they would say at what speed they are travelling for the round and their first action. They would them move (their standard movement speed) and take their first action. If they were traveling at Fast speed, on their second action, they would move up to their standard movement speed for a second time to conclude the Fast movement and take their second action. The movement still counts as an action for MAP but runs concurrently. For all-out movement, they just move the standard movement two times during first and second actions and may move up to their standard movement during third and fourth actions - even though they only took one action.
It is clunky to explain but I have been doing it for awhile in my games and it has been working out really well.
For vehicles, I have to add an extra step by moving all vehicles for then taking first actions. It is almost like other games where there is a movement phase and a shooting phase. I run a lot of space battles and this has been the approach to svoid goofy distance jumps to get out of range if you happened to go first, regardless of relative vehicle speeds. |
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Mamatried
Commodore
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Movement in the Turn
I have always used the Move+Action= 1st Action-penalties/bonues apply.
I allow my characters to move with normal speed within his base speed (within the grid) then act as their 1st action.
Naturally they can act first then move as well if they so choose.
Movement requireing a "running/Dex" roll counts towards MAP
Example:
Joe sees a patrol of stomtroopers approaching and he calls out to Boe alerting him.
Boe Sees the troopers and takes one shot as he runs to cover behind the corner.
He rolls initiative and on his intitiative he shoots; hitting or missing the troopers.
At the end of the intiative phase; meaning dead last
and after the actions of the troopers and evryone else, he then makes it to the corner and cover.
He can be hit before the initiatve phase is ended and he can even die.
If he is hit to a degree his speed is reduced,
he must roll a running or a Dex roll to complete his basic 10 Distance moved.
Failure gives the opponent +5 (or more) to the attack roll hitting him.
Sucess allows him to complete his intial movement and get around the corner, his speed is reduced from injury
from this point on and will adjust his his dice pool accordingly. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | A half move is free. |
But that's the thing; it's a "Cautious" Move. As in, moving that Speed, you can only cover five meters in a five second round. It's a walking pace, not a sprint of a few meters to get across an open space while stormtroopers are shooting at you.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I agree with your thoughts about the sequence - which is why I have the movement to occurring during the actions at a distance no more than the character or vehicle's move during each "action" but the move itself occurs during all other declared actions. |
How do you handle, say, a character/vehicle that starts and ends its Move behind cover, but is exposed to enemy fire during the Move? Do the enemy get a chance to shoot at them during the Move phase of the round?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
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Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | A half move is free. |
But that's the thing; it's a "Cautious" Move. As in, moving that Speed, you can only cover five meters in a five second round. It's a walking pace, not a sprint of a few meters to get across an open space while stormtroopers are shooting at you. |
I am not seeing how this conflicts with what I wrote. |
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