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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Gambling has a huge social/interpersonal aspect to it, while Investigation includes a minor element of it too. |
Perceptin being a minor element of investigation is an interesting point. |
I didn't say that Perception was a minor element for Investigation. I said that the social/interpersonal aspect was minor. The gather information aspect involves some social/interpersonal ability. Investigation also has a greater physical awareness aspect of Perception such as noticing details, etc.
| Bren wrote: | But is Holmes particularly persuasive, charming, or likable? Not really. Most of the time he’s a bit of a misogynistic @$$.
I’ve never been completely happy with being attuned to one’s environment and having keen senses necessarily being linked to being likeable, persuasive, or charming. James Fennimore Cooper’s character Hawkeye (that guy in Last of the Mohicans) is very attuned to the environment around him and can track a deer or a party of Huron Warriors across the wild. But he too isn’t all that persuasive.
I’ve also known more than a few research scientists. These are folks whose bread and butter is investigation. They don’t seem any more perceptive than anyone else and quite often they are less perceptive of many things outside their field of expertise. |
I don't disagree. WEG combining social awareness with physical awareness is an issue that WEG even realized was less than ideal. Some D6 games don't have Mechanical and Technical, and Star Wars' Perception sometimes gets split into its social and physical sides. In Star Wars, to address the possibility of character with a difference in their social or physical awareness, there are a couple options. You can split the attribute into two attributes in your game. But that would have a domino effect and requiring you to restat everything including maybe even having more attribute dice to work with for PCs and typical species, etc. Not an easy option.
But this issue was improved with RAW in R&E. Characters who are bad at physical awareness but good at social awareness have always been representable in RAW by low Perception but high social awareness skills, so there is nothing needed for that. In 1e and the original 2e, the search skill was active awareness only so to have a good passive awareness you had to have a good base Perception which eliminated being inept at social awareness. But with 2eR&E, they added passive awareness to Search, so you can now have a character with low base Perception and unimproved influence skills, but a high Search skill which gives high active and passive environmental awareness. And you and can give a character high whatever else you want. So a low Perception attribute with high skills of one subset or the other will differentiate between those characters that you want to be good at only physical or social awareness skills.
And if a GM implements some simple advantages/disadvantages, he can further differentiate between social and physical awareness, which I feel is a much easier option than adding another attribute to the game.
| Bren wrote: | Consider Sherlock Holmes. What is he renowned for?
1. His ability to notice minor details. He’s perceptive.
2. His ability to remember facts. He knows things.
3. His ability take 1 and 2, think hard (often in a monomaniacal manner) and arrive at correct conclusions about what has previously occurred or what may logically occur next. He investigates and he’s good at it. |
All true, but the abilities of Holmes are more than the Investigation skill. He is an investigator but uses multiple skills over the course of his investigations.
| Bren wrote: | | ...All that said, I’m wondering whether putting Investigation under Knowledge is better than leaving it under Perception, as does the RAW. |
I'm wondering the same. It's definitely got elements of both Perception and Knowledge, but unless you make it an advanced skill, it's got to be pegged to one attribute or another. For short times I had moved Streetwise and Tactics to Perception but ended up moving them both back to Knowledge. Investigation seems like it might be overall better in Knowledge.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Intimidation came up because the argument is being made that "strong personality" is based in the Perception attribute. Taken together with Willpower, however, there's a good case to be made that WEG intended to put it under Knowledge. It wouldn't be the first time that WEG made a change without thinking through how it would affect other rules. Moving Willpower to Knowledge, then forgetting to update the Force powers to reflect the change, would be par for the course.
I actually rather like that; Knowledge has always been something of a borderline dump stat, so putting the "strong personality" aspect of a character to Knowledge helps to make Knowledge more attractive. In the past, I've advocated moving Intimidation to Perception, but viewed in that light, I'd leave it where it is. In fact, I could see moving Command to Knowledge, as well.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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I've got no issues with willpower being a know skill, and intimidation getting switched to Per.. Though i'd rather keep both under Know myself.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Knowledge has always been something of a borderline dump stat |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Intimidation came up because the argument is being made that "strong personality" is based in the Perception attribute. Taken together with Willpower, however, there's a good case to be made that WEG intended to put it under Knowledge. |
I feel there is stronger case both of those skills were just put in Knowledge just to beef up Knowledge. However, Investigation was also a new skill in 2e and they put that in Perception. Maybe they thought Intimidation and Willpower would be more attractive to players (than Investigation) so put those two in the "dump" stat. I feel Investigation is a much better fit in Knowledge than Intimidation or Willpower. Especially if Perception and Search are still noticing the clues, then Investigation could be putting the clues together in your mind.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | It wouldn't be the first time that WEG made a change without thinking through how it would affect other rules. Moving Willpower to Knowledge, then forgetting to update the Force powers to reflect the change, would be par for the course. |
True.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | putting the "strong personality" aspect of a character to Knowledge |
Maybe you should consider renaming the attribute too. Mental Acuity?
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | In fact, I could see moving Command to Knowledge, as well. |
I see skills like Bureaucracy and Tactics to be the Knowledge side of Command. Command is classic personal influence so belongs in Perception, but I have renamed it "Leadership" in my game and it can also be used to inspire others, not just command them.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I feel there is stronger case both of those skills were just put in Knowledge just to beef up Knowledge. |
Tough to say for sure which it is. Based on my view of the difference between Knowledge and Perception, I always figured Intimidation - as a form of interpersonal communication - would be a better fit to Perception. However, this discussion about the ins and outs of a strong personality has me looking a it from a different angle, that perhaps WEG was deliberately trying to put "strong mind" under the Knowledge stat.
| Quote: | | I see skills like Bureaucracy and Tactics to be the Knowledge side of Command. Command is classic personal influence so belongs in Perception, but I have renamed it "Leadership" in my game and it can also be used to inspire others, not just command them. |
I'm looking at it from a perspective of different kinds of command techniques. It's possible for someone to be brusque, abrasive and disliked yet still command respect and have their orders obeyed through sheer force of personality. Someone may not necessarily like or agree with the orders given by such a commander, but they obey them anyway.
Your Leadership would be the other side of the Command coin, and might actually work better folded into Persuasion...
Also, I agree with your decision to move First Aid to Knowledge, and I think that adds weight to my argument, as many doctors are known for being arrogant pricks who are used to their orders being followed... 
| Quote: | | However, Investigation was also a new skill in 2e and they put that in Perception. Maybe they thought Intimidation and Willpower would be more attractive to players (than Investigation) so put those two in the "dump" stat. I feel Investigation is a much better fit in Knowledge than Intimidation or Willpower. Especially if Perception and Search are still noticing the clues, then Investigation could be putting the clues together in your mind. |
It depends how you view investigation; information could be gathered either through research and data collation, or it could be gathered Private Investigator-style, going out and asking questions of the right people, taking photos, sneaking around, etc.
Maybe it's a candidate for upgrading to an Advanced Skill...
EDIT: Maybe an (A) Detective skill, with Investigation, Bureaucracy and Sensors as prerequisites?
| Quote: | | Maybe you should consider renaming the attribute too. Mental Acuity? |
I considered it, but I'm on the fence. For one thing, I would want the Attribute name to be a single word that encompasses both intellect and strong will, and I haven't been able to find one that works...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:36 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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I think this about the two ; perception and willpower as regards to the force.
Willpower is a skill "trained" aka written up on a template, that is rare, as in very few templates have a willpower skill.
becuse it in general is meant for force users to defend against other force users, I can see how you can train your self through techniques and academia to gain a stronger focus, and a stronger sense of concentration.
However most non force users ( house ruled milirtary exception here) do not have willpower as one of the template stats.
this generally palces the average will power in the 2-4D range depending on your knowledge stat.
If we then see the force as both physical and esoteric, the "i don't belive and nothing can change this" will IMO influence the resistance in some regards. However this goes to the mental powers.
I can see how you can train ( aka KNowledge) willpower for resisting interrogations, being firm in your conviction etc etc.
I would argue that some of the sormies would be "weak at will" meaning a Perception and a KNO attribute at less than 3D.
With the strenght of personality, more so than stenght of mine falling under perception, here wher your personality is so strong it aids in warding off some metal force powers, or the personality is so stong it makes the mental powers harder to use on the "victim".
so I can see how how both being used with the higher of the two being relevant.
Joe had 3D+1 in perception he has 2D in Knowledg and not trained willpower above the default 2D, his natural defense against a mental force power is then his personality at 3D+1.
Joe had 3D+1 in Perception and 2D in Knowledge but becuse of his work and training he is used to constant focus and have raised his willpower skill to 4D
When Darth Darth Evildarth tries to read Joe's mind, Joe now use his Learned/Trained defense as this is the highest one at 4D |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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But, if a character does not have dice in Willpower, they default to their Knowledge Attribute, and so, if Knowledge represents both intellect and a strong mind, a character with 4D in Knowledge will be better equipped to resist Force powers than would a character with 2D in Knowledge.
And just because a template stat doesn't have Willpower as a starting skill doesn't mean a player can't put dice in it. Templates are just guidelines, not hard classes.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mamatried
Commodore
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | But, if a character does not have dice in Willpower, they default to their Knowledge Attribute, and so, if Knowledge represents both intellect and a strong mind, a character with 4D in Knowledge will be better equipped to resist Force powers than would a character with 2D in Knowledge.
And just because a template stat doesn't have Willpower as a starting skill doesn't mean a player can't put dice in it. Templates are just guidelines, not hard classes. |
They can put dice in it, sure, however to me the Knowledge is "intellect" and perecption is personality, and for defense you use what is highest |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Obi-wan: "The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded."
That's not the same thing as a weak personality. Someone can be quite perceptive and engaging and charismatic, yet still be weak-willed.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Maybe you should consider renaming the attribute too. Mental Acuity? |
I considered it, but I'm on the fence. For one thing, I would want the Attribute name to be a single word that encompasses both intellect and strong will, and I haven't been able to find one that works... |
Well, in RAW, Mechanical Aptitude and Technical Aptitude are two-word attribute names. In my game I have a third two-word attribute name, The Force.
| Mamatried wrote: | | becuse it in general is meant for force users to defend against other force users, I can see how you can train your self through techniques and academia to gain a stronger focus, and a stronger sense of concentration. |
Thanks for trying to get us back on topic, Willpower resisting the Force. I do appreciate that you are giving another solution to the Willpower attribute assignment debate, one that can go on either attribute, whichever is higher. But going the "academia" route to justify skills being put in Knowledge is a slippery slope because that could work for so many skills. The knowledge of computer programming, the knowledge of swimming, the knowledge of shields, the knowledge of melee, the knowledge of persuasion...
1e had a Knowledge skill called Technology. In 2e is was split up to the Value skill and the Technical attribute. It makes more sense now. Even the attributes overlap so skill assignment is is about deciding the best attribute out of all of them.
| Mamatried wrote: | | If we then see the force as both physical and esoteric, the "i don't belive and nothing can change this" will IMO influence the resistance in some regards. However this goes to the mental powers. |
They are all mental powers.
MOTTI: Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebels' hidden fort... [choke]
VADER: I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Well, in RAW, Mechanical Aptitude and Technical Aptitude are two-word attribute names. In my game I have a third two-word attribute name, The Force. |
I always figured the "Aptitude" was silent; I've never thought of using anything but the single-word common title. Even "The Force" is simply truncated as "Force"...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I always figured the "Aptitude" was silent; I've never thought of using anything but the single-word common title. Even "The Force" is simply truncated as "Force"... |
The rule book says the one-word attribute names are short for the two-word names. So just Acuity for your one word name?
It is tricky to come up with any attribute name that includes Willpower no matter which attribute you put it under. Willpower is the odd man out for skills. It's its own thing.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Alternately, Knowledge could just as easily include knowledge of one's self, which translates into strength of will, confidence, etc. All of which would play into Willpower and Intimidation (and Command, if one were to move it to Knowledge).
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Command i don't see as being a Know skill. ITs too linked to persuasion to be, to move it out of perception.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Command i don't see as being a Know skill. ITs too linked to persuasion to be, to move it out of perception. |
You were in the military; ever have a CO or OIC who was an @$$hole but still got things done because people jumped when he said so?
My point is that there are different styles of command, and not all of them have to do with persuading people or being nice to them.
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