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The Nature of Official Rules
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shield operator is a continuation of the example where we hear that the Captain wants to increase power to the shields among other things. While it is possible that it's use is a typo (as I said, the Optional Rule is not well written), it seems just as likely that power controller (a term that I don't think has ever been used elsewhere) was a place holder while the designer(s) were deciding what skill ought to be used. It's retention may be the typo.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Shield operator is a continuation of the example where we hear that the Captain wants to increase power to the shields among other things. While it is possible that it's use is a typo (as I said, the Optional Rule is not well written), it seems just as likely that power controller (a term that I don't think has ever been used elsewhere) was a place holder while the designer(s) were deciding what skill ought to be used. It's retention may be the typo.



it is "one" example of how to use the rules. Now if we look at a lower scale where players will most likely be affected we can go to freighters, no where do we see solo+chewie do anything but flip switches to bypass anything.

However in TFA Rey removes (she has it in her hand) some jury rigged thing, and thus she uses repair skill.

Howver neither han not chewie uses anything but piloting skill
This is more so proven in ANH where Han and Luke is on the guns and chewie is alone in the cockpit, somehow with only switches they are capable of any needed power rerouting or switching, they even just pull a lever at times.

So the nature of the Rules is only to state examples not to be the holy word.

As in if only capital shield operation is mentioned, then why have starshoip shiled skill at all, a skill that has no use according to those taking raw as holy, they are exaples at best.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And if the RAW were clearer as to exactly which skill was meant to be used, you might have a point. However, this entire discussion stemmed from the fact that the RAW did not so state. As such, the only skill used in the example (Shields) is the closest the RAW gets to making a specific statement. There is also the fact that, of the available Mech and Tech skills, Shields is the only one that involves switching and distributing a limited supply of power between multiple systems.

And that is as clear as the RAW gets. You're arguing hypotheticals based on what the RAW might've said, in opposition to what it actually says.

If you want to use a skill other than Shields, no one is stopping you. However, the RAW still says what it says, and while it may be ambiguous, it is still as close as we get to an official statement.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
And if the RAW were clearer as to exactly which skill was meant to be used, you might have a point. However, this entire discussion stemmed from the fact that the RAW did not so state. As such, the only skill used in the example (Shields) is the closest the RAW gets to making a specific statement. There is also the fact that, of the available Mech and Tech skills, Shields is the only one that involves switching and distributing a limited supply of power between multiple systems.

And that is as clear as the RAW gets. You're arguing hypotheticals based on what the RAW might've said, in opposition to what it actually says.

If you want to use a skill other than Shields, no one is stopping you. However, the RAW still says what it says, and while it may be ambiguous, it is still as close as we get to an official statement.



I don't think RAW here lacks much in what skills they chose to name.

If we look to a bridge of any star wars ship of capital size we see what?

We see a "piloting and systems crew" that operates the systems in different stations, the pilots is one place, sensors and comms is another place and shileds etc yet on another place.

so in the case of the captalship where things like byuttons and switches are not solely operatred from cockpi then this is a fairly good way of shpwing how to use a power rerout/switch for these people's sytems.

Like on the ISD, the crew pits, we have different crew stations, piloting being one, and for these that exaple is a way to do this.

However it is not very relevant for 99% players ever, and thus have been left vague in case someone want to rp running a 7K crew on some ISD.

on a small freighter oor a fighter or any ship that players most likly can get their hands on all the things described in the exerpt is simply done in the heat of the moment and by the pilot/co pilot and by flipping a switch.

So becuse 99% of all ship players will have and use and operate this wast bridge area with 100s of crew isn't really in any cpacity rlevant to smaller scale.

However, if reading the exserpt you can translate this to any other scale and use the starship shields skill for the times and the "bad ships" few ships that does not have cockpit controls, but require a crew of 4 to constantly manage a shiled etc.

now becuse the shield thing is meant as something "above the flip of a switch" they have it as a skill, as sometimes you do need to use the skill, but this is when players decide to either pilot broken ship, or a bad ship.

as there is not a single reference in any canon/legends material indicating that any of these actions require anything but operation/piloting.

We also have to think of this as a way to have all parts of a crew do something for the sake of the table and for letting all players have something to do.

so other than to be an example of how to switch power to shields when not in a small ship, then the example works, 100%

The issue comes when people try to put morte into it.


a cre of 25 on the bridge of an ISD can easily have seperate tasks and systems
A ONE MAN fighter not so much and here everthing is flip and button controlled in the cocpit.

we even see on screen shileds that is being fixed, and the control and operation of siad sields is ONLY a lever/switch, and this is a ship with a larger crew than 1 ( naboo royal ship ep 1)

Ok the repairs are done by the droids outside, but ALL types op operations is done by ONE guy, he flips a switch back and forth.......
nothing what so ever more

so again the exerpt is nothing more than a than rules exaple, and one that is for captal ships, as it can not be done in that at all mechanically on a lower scale.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You’re wasting a lot of energy trying to prove the RAW doesn’t actually say what it says. And “shield operator” wasn’t part of an example, it was part of the actual rule description. Go back and re read the rule if you don’t believe me.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
You’re wasting a lot of energy trying to prove the RAW doesn’t actually say what it says. And “shield operator” wasn’t part of an example, it was part of the actual rule description. Go back and re read the rule if you don’t believe me.



the nature of rules is to eplain and to be examples.

not every single scenario can be written down in rules in advance.

But according to your statement there is no sields on an exwing, and the pilot must stip flying begin using other skills, stop, exit open his tools and then move on, or flip a switch.

the description was not in any way how this is done in "all ships" but how it is done on ship large enough to have a dedicared sield operator, comms operatoor and the like.

this experpt has nothing what so ever to do with smaller ships

and thus the rules are to be ignored for smaller ships.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
But according to your statement there is no sields on an exwing, and the pilot must stip flying begin using other skills, stop, exit open his tools and then move on, or flip a switch.

Dude, what? Characters use multiple skills all the time under the RAW. A pilot flying an X-Wing can be expected to use up to four different skills (Piloting, Sensors, Gunnery and Shields) all in the same round. This is the RAW, and it has been that way all the way back to 1E.

And where are you getting this idea that an X-Wing has no shields. Going strictly by the RAW, the X-Wing has shields because all official stats for the X-Wing give it 1D of Shields.

Quote:
the description was not in any way how this is done in "all ships" but how it is done on ship large enough to have a dedicared sield operator, comms operatoor and the like.

No, it was included in the rule for power switching in general, not just as an example for capital ships. The exact quote is found between the two tables at the end of the Optional Rule Section:
    Power switching time, however. When the shield operator rolls as indicated above, compare the result to the table below:


Quote:
this experpt has nothing what so ever to do with smaller ships

and thus the rules are to be ignored for smaller ships.

Where does the RAW say that? Nowhere in the section on Power Transfer does it specifically state that "these rules are only for capital ships". Technically, being that this is an Optional Rule, they can be ignored for ALL ships, depending on the GM's preference. But unless you can find an actual quote in the text stating "this is only for use on certain types of ships," it's not an official rule.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lets look at someone fighting in smoke condition.

rules states that PERCEPTION is used, it does not in any way list a skill.
However the skill "search" does give smoke as one of the examples of hoe it is used.

"Search Time Taken: One round or longer. Specializations: Tracking. This skill is used when the character is trying to spot hidden objects or individuals. If the subject of the search has been purposefully hidden, the searching character
makes an opposed roll against the hiding character’s hide skill. If the object hasn’t been hidden, the character simply makes a roll against a difficulty. This skill is also used to spot characters using the sneak skill, such as a group of rebels moving into position to prepare an ambush, or someone attempting to conceal themselves. This is an opposed roll – the character sneak# ing around makes a roll, and anyone who might spot the character makes a search (or Perception) roll."

According to rules and description of Search skill ( Perception)

now from a rules exerpt in "starfall"

"Smoke and other battlefield environments such as darkness and rain obscure targets, rendering a character virtually invisible in some conditions. Firing at a fully obscured target adds +10 to the difficulty number. If the target has been spotted (because the attacker let the target shoot first and then aimed at the blaster flash, for example), the environment acts as medium cover (+2 to the difficulty number). Spotting a character in such an environment requires a Perception check, which counts as an action. If the obscured character is silent and did npt move last round the check is Difficult; if the character made noise or moved last round the check is Moderate; and if the character fired a blaster last round the check is Easy. Stormtrooper helmets are equipped with MFTAS (Multi-Frequency Targeting and Acquis- tion System) as part of their armor sensor array. MFTAS allow stormtroopers to make a free Perception check at 4D when the environment (smoke, darkness, rain) provides cover which obscures their opponents. This check does not count as an action for stormatroopers and does not lower their die codes."


What we see here is that the rules experpt states ATTRIBUTE roll only in the same exact conditions and situations described by the skill search.

so again I say that what ever skill is mentioned in these rule exserpts are meant as examples and other skills may fit the task and would then be resolved very similarly.

again the difference between the nature of the rules and the wording.


Or lets ask, how many differnt skills did Luke use to: Fly his x-wing with shileds up and weapons systems armed and ready.....

I would guess Starfighter piloting for his movements, starship gunnery for his shooting and when he needs to do any shiled adjustments he uses the shiled skill, and a search or perception to spot enemies etc.

However there are examples where according to the wording he would have to use capital shiled shileds??? becuse that was the example.........


so the nature of the official rules is to give examples of how to use a certain skill in a certain situation without denying any option to do diffently.

So I think the above example of discrepency in how search/perception is described is telling on my point that the skill name given in an example is close to irrelevant, it is the mechanical process in how to solve the situation that is suggested.

after all boiled down and it is often stated as well, any and all rules in "this book....insert system here..." are suggestions and guidelines and not in any way written in stone
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, because the official rules ARE written in stone (or on paper, at least).

But the twist is that, per the RAW, you are expected to make up new rules for the purposes of your own campaign (see my signature).

So, the appropriate context of any discussion of the Official Rules is as follows:
    The rules say "x". However, you are not required to abide by those rules.
Nowhere in the rules is there any sort of limitation via omission, as in "if it is not specifically mentioned in the rules, it does not exist." You are reading something into the rules that isn't there.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This argument is silly.



    (1) No, the rule doesn't overtly state, "This is for capital ships" or "This is for all starships." But this optional rule is technically presented for one use with specific ship in one specific campaign. That ship happens to be a capital ship.

    (2) This particular rule is inadequately written. It's bantha poodu. Arguing over it is pointless.

    (3) ALL rules are optional rules.

    (4) Please agree to disagree and move on.

Thank you.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Dude, what? Characters use multiple skills all the time under the RAW. A pilot flying an X-Wing can be expected to use up to four different skills (Piloting, Sensors, Gunnery and Shields) all in the same round. This is the RAW, and it has been that way all the way back to 1E.
Could be five skills. The pilot might also use Communications to jam coms on an enemy ship or to try to punch through enemy jamming to warn the rest of the task force that "It's a trap!."

I can't speak for others, but I don't require a communications roll or action for ordinary ship to ship conversation like what we hear during the Death Star run in ANH.
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