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Skywalker Loop?
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Mojomoe
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:35 am    Post subject: Skywalker Loop? Reply with quote

Heya folks.

I'm looking heavily into starfighter combat maneuvers for my gaming groups which has been playing a lot of X-Wing lately, and trying to adapt the various maneuvers to D6 better.

The only one I'm having trouble visualizing is the Skywalker Loop. D20/SAGA claims it was invented by Anakin Skywalker, and it involves "looping back on your previous position but traveling the opposite direction." Are they... are they just describing a regular half-loop? Or did Anakin Skywalker do something fancy with it? Was this ever shown in the movies or tv shows? I need a visual reference to make a diagram. Because if it's an upward loop with a half-roll, it's a Koiogran Turn (Immelmann), and if it's a down loop with a half-roll, it's a Split-S. So I'm not sure what they're getting at...

In other news, I'm thinking about combining maneuver checks against difficulty and the opposed pilots rolls into one check. For instance, a maneuver would have a set difficulty of Difficult (5D). The pilots would roll their skills, and the GM would roll the difficulty. If the maneuvering pilot beat the difficulty AND their opponent, the maneuver is successful. If the beat the difficulty but NOT the opponent, the opponent out maneuvers but otherwise no effect. If they beat the opponent but NOT the difficulty, they gain advantage but suffer a collision or spin out. And if they fail both, they gain no advantage AND suffer collision or spin out.

Thoughts? Id like to have these become more useful in my game. I suppose I would also potentially use them as specializations? Or perhaps like Force skills, you have to have a teacher show you.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering that a lot of these maneuvers happen in Zero-G, I'm not sure you need a distinction between upper and lower variants of what is essentially the same maneuver. The only possible reason (IMO) was if the combat was taking place in close enough proximity to a gravity well that there was sufficient pull to be the equivalent of "up" or "down". But even then, is it really all that different from the Bootleg Turn described in the RAW?
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Mojomoe
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of curiosity, where is the Bootleg Turn listed in the RAW?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mojomoe wrote:
Out of curiosity, where is the Bootleg Turn listed in the RAW?

On pg. 108 of the 2R&E Rulebook for Vehicles. The Maneuvers section for vehicles is much more comprehensive than that for Starships, but there is no reason starships can't use them as guidelines for their own maneuvers.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Star Wars fighters clearly 'fly' and maneuver through the vacuum of space as if they were aircraft flying through an atmosphere, as seen in any of the movies featuring space combat.

WHY this happens in-universe requires an interesting explanation beyond my interest level.

WHY it happens cinematically is quite a bit easier to grasp.

But in either case, any and all maneuvers suitable for WWII fighter planes and modern jet fighters are suitable in a Star Wars dogfight.

Which is why they appear in WEG Star Wars books in the first place; with such entries as 'The Scissors' and 'The Tallon Roll'.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Flat_scissors_with_instruction_diagram_symbols.PNG


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_scissors

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tallon_Roll
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Considering that a lot of these maneuvers happen in Zero-G, I'm not sure you need a distinction between upper and lower variants of what is essentially the same maneuver. The only possible reason (IMO) was if the combat was taking place in close enough proximity to a gravity well that there was sufficient pull to be the equivalent of "up" or "down". But even then, is it really all that different from the Bootleg Turn described in the RAW?


'Up' can be relative to the orientation of the fighter.

An X-wing for example has a good view through the canopy in it's 'UP' direction, and significantly poorer in it's 'DOWN' direction. This may be an important factor when visually tracking during a maneuver.

Depending on the layout of engines and other control devices, it may be able to be more agile moving in it's own 'UP' orientation versus it's own 'DOWN' orientation.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Skywalker Loop? Reply with quote

Mojomoe wrote:
Heya folks.

The only one I'm having trouble visualizing is the Skywalker Loop. D20/SAGA claims it was invented by Anakin Skywalker, and it involves "looping back on your previous position but traveling the opposite direction."


Sounds to me like it may be the Star Wars version of a Cobra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-VNSJMiNt0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugachev%27s_Cobra
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Mojomoe
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really?

I was reading about that recently, Pugachev's Cobra seems more about stalling (thus removing velocity) and checking your six, but you maintain your vector. The vague descriptor of the Skywalker Loop says you fly back "through your previous position" while traveling in the "opposite direction." These are super vague terms, though, which makes it difficult. Though I do agree that most aerial maneuvers translate to Star Wars, except maybe stalls - those might be a harder sell to players (since they rely on downward gravity and loss of momentum fairly obviously. Wouldn't you think?)

I don't think it could qualify as a Bootlegger Turn, since "turn" and "loop" are pretty inviolate terms. The Bootlegger is a tight 180 with no roll or pitch, meaning the cockpit remains level throughout the flight. A loop requires the ship to pitch, rotating 180 on the lateral axis for a half-loop and 360 on the lateral for a full loop, with no roll or yaw.

It really sounds like they're just describing a half-loop (since a full loop would not leave you traveling in the opposite direction, but the same initial vector once complete.) Whether it has a half-roll as well (leveling the cockpit's "up" vector after the maneuver) is unknown. What I also don't understand is why this is a "named" maneuver at all - it's just a loop. I suppose it could be situational, like the Segnorls Loop, which is technically a feint+loop. Perhaps we can intuit from the D20 effect ("if your opponent failed a maneuver check, you may immediately make an attack"), that it's an opportunistic surprise loop performed when an opponent tries to maneuver to get a shot at you but fails; you immediately reverse course (by looping) and startle them. I dunno, it's loose but maybe?
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Mojomoe
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I've done further research and some Nth-level rereading of the SAGA material.

Looks like a Skywaker Loop is mostly situational, and less about the actual aerobatic maneuver. It's actually a snap, reaction-based version of a Segnor's Loop: Segnor's involves pmflying rapidly away from a target (feint) before rapidly looping back and lining up an attack run. The kicker is that a Segnor's can be performed outside of dogfighting; in theory, a Star Destroyer could Segnor.

A Skywalker Loop, by comparison, is a rapid reaction to the opponent missing a shot or maneuver, where a pilot loops suddenly back and surprises the opponent by taking an attack of opportunity (or a "snap-shot"). It seems much less planned, and more spur-of-the-moment.

I think I'm ok with that.

However, it breeds another question: after rereading the D6 2ERE rules, it says little to nothing about turning. It mentions that an "extreme turn" or "extreme climb" is one performed at "greater than 45 degrees", but it doesn't say how you are allowed to turn when moving your Space speed on a gridded map. Without "extreme turns," are you then limited to 45 degrees throughout an entire move action, beyond which you are required to roll for success?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
'Up' can be relative to the orientation of the fighter.

An X-wing for example has a good view through the canopy in it's 'UP' direction, and significantly poorer in it's 'DOWN' direction. This may be an important factor when visually tracking during a maneuver.

Depending on the layout of engines and other control devices, it may be able to be more agile moving in it's own 'UP' orientation versus it's own 'DOWN' orientation.

If the RAW made that distinction, I might be inclined to agree. However, nowhere in the rules does it specify that any given fighter is more maneuverable when climbing as opposed to diving. And frankly, I don't see the usefulness of adding such a rule simply to satisfy realism.

In the real world, the difference between an Immelman and a Split S is offensive vs. defensive. The Immelman is used to gain altitude and set-up for a diving attack, while the Split-S is used to pick up speed in a dive in an attempt to disengage. In both cases, gravity is a factor, with the Immelman working to overcome it and the Split-S using gravity to its advantage.

As I said above, in Zero-G combat, up vs down is much more abstract than it is in real life, even before repulsorlifts are factored in. And since the RAW makes no distinction regarding the specifics of starship maneuverability, an upward bootleg turn is no different than a downward bootleg turn.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:

'Up' can be relative to the orientation of the fighter.

An X-wing for example has a good view through the canopy in it's 'UP' direction, and significantly poorer in it's 'DOWN' direction. This may be an important factor when visually tracking during a maneuver.

Depending on the layout of engines and other control devices, it may be able to be more agile moving in it's own 'UP' orientation versus it's own 'DOWN' orientation.


Good point. And that's one thing i am surprised naturally flying/acquatic races don't gain a bonus for aerial/space combat on, cause they ar supposedly MORE used to fighting in 3 dimensions..
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JironGhrad
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Good point. And that's one thing i am surprised naturally flying/acquatic races don't gain a bonus for aerial/space combat on, cause they ar supposedly MORE used to fighting in 3 dimensions..


I agree... this was mentioned in Han Solo at Star's End (which was the very first non-trilogy Star Wars novel I ever read.)
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
And frankly, I don't see the usefulness of adding such a rule simply to satisfy realism.


Really?

But you'll write reams of material and re-write the published stats ad nauseum in order to satisfy such selective realism as adding gravity bombs to starfighters, figuring out what makes repulsorlift vehicles go; what their steering vanes do, and how do airspeeders operate at the edge of an atmosphere; and you've written highly detailed system for advanced starfighter combat that includes rules for visual tracking...

But the concept that different starfighters might have different abilities to visually track based on the build of their cockpits or might be better at certain maneuvers due to the way their engines and control surfaces are laid out is too much? A useless endeavour? Not worth the time?

Even as an explanation or rationale to add more choices for starfighter special maneuvers seems like enough motivation for me.

But I didn't expect that response from you.

You are a different sort of cat McNeil.

I have not figured you out. Yet.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cat? Mashi Horansi, more likely. Disguised as a Krogan, or something. We must go deeper...
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Mojomoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree with it being a worthwhile endeavor to pursue more interesting starfighter maneuvers, if for no other reason than it helps players visualize their ship movements and perhaps develop signature moves.

Perhaps a player has a cool reason for doing a Split-S rather than a Koiogran, maybe they're setting up something cool that I don't know about yet. Why not give them the options? Plus then at the least with more detailed maneuvers they can spout some meaningful Top Gun-sequel fight jargon and call out moves to each other, and feel more like fighter pilots.

I'm considering a couple of additional mechanics, one for signature moves that offer a bonus to you/your teammates or a detriment to the opponents and one for showboating - basically, a specialization of intimidation (intimidation: starfighter piloting) that lets them scare the crap out of lower-grade pilots to make them nervous and slip up.
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