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Imperial Sector Fleet
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Inquisitor1138
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThrorII wrote:
--snip--
But, as I said, I run a 'small galaxy' using the published information and maps to show a galaxy of about 336 Imperial Sectors and 182 Outer Rim Sectors. With 3,000 named inhabited systems (1,024 Member Systems of the Empire/Republic), and about 30,000 systems with small outposts, bases, small colonies, etc.

This count of sectors, is this from the Essential Atlas or the ImpSB?
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think for a campaign, creating a sector fleet like what is described in the Elrood Sector might have the best scale. I belive the Elrood Sectory has only two Imperial class Star Destroyers, a small number of other capital ships (Bayonette class) and smaller craft. Of course, it too many ships in a quiet sector like this were to be destroyed, it would draw a lot more Imperial attention.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My SWU's total number is about one ISD for every sector (so about 1000 total), but of course not all sectors need their own ISD. I envision that some single ISDs patrol multiple low importance sectors. Some sectors and forces need more than one ISD, so this can still happen.

Inquisitor1138 wrote:
ThrorII wrote:
--snip--
But, as I said, I run a 'small galaxy' using the published information and maps to show a galaxy of about 336 Imperial Sectors and 182 Outer Rim Sectors. With 3,000 named inhabited systems (1,024 Member Systems of the Empire/Republic), and about 30,000 systems with small outposts, bases, small colonies, etc.

This count of sectors, is this from the Essential Atlas or the ImpSB?

This count is not from the Essential Atlas. The EA says the Ruusan Republic had 1,024 sectors, and that the Empire consolidated a few so it may be a little less, but no final exact number is given. But there is no implication there (or in any other source I am aware of) that the number of sectors in the Empire would be reduced to less than half of what it was in the Republic before it. My impression from this thread is that Thror here is giving us his SWU which diverges from the EU (and canon).

I envision an Empire somewhere in between canon and Thror's. I very much prefer a smaller Alliance than what the EU makes it out to be. The movies and the game are more dramatic if the Alliance isn't too big. I see most of the Alliance's capital ships being at the Battle of Endor, but of course there could have been more that had gotten picked off over the years. I see Mothma's statement about the Empire wanting to engage the main fleet is because that is their last major defense. Even with there being less ISDs (by a factor of 1/25) in my SWU, I still want their to be some truth to Palpatine's sentiments about the Alliance being a pitiful little band. Relatively, it was.
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Inquisitor1138
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
My SWU's total number is about one ISD for every sector (so about 1000 total), but of course not all sectors need their own ISD. I envision that some single ISDs patrol multiple low importance sectors. Some sectors and forces need more than one ISD, so this can still happen.

So even if i cap the number of ISDs at a few thousand, there can be some sectors that don't have any yet, and must content themselves with the Clone Wars' leftovers, even as some ISDs are held in reserve, allocated to/by Grand Admirals...
Palpatine is the King of "MORE!!!"

Whill wrote:
Inquisitor1138 wrote:
This count of sectors, is this from the Essential Atlas or the ImpSB?

This count is not from the Essential Atlas. The EA says the Ruusan Republic had 1,024 sectors, and that the Empire consolidated a few so it may be a little less, but no final exact number is given. But there is no implication there (or in any other source I am aware of) that the number of sectors in the Empire would be reduced to less than half of what it was in the Republic before it. My impression from this thread is that Thror here is giving us his SWU which diverges from the EU (and canon).

By "Ruusan Republic" you mean the Old Republic? No doubt the Empire consolidated some, and annexed others. So still around 1,024 sectors, give or take?
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inquisitor1138 wrote:
ThrorII wrote:
--snip--
But, as I said, I run a 'small galaxy' using the published information and maps to show a galaxy of about 336 Imperial Sectors and 182 Outer Rim Sectors. With 3,000 named inhabited systems (1,024 Member Systems of the Empire/Republic), and about 30,000 systems with small outposts, bases, small colonies, etc.

This count of sectors, is this from the Essential Atlas or the ImpSB?


I actually hand counted the number of sectors listed and drawn in the Essential Atlas maps, plus scoured star wars wiki for the core and colonies sector names.

I know they CLAIM 1024 sectors, but they only showed about 500 sectors, plus 50-60 unmarked core and colony sectors.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inquisitor1138 wrote:
Whill wrote:
Inquisitor1138 wrote:
This count of sectors, is this from the Essential Atlas or the ImpSB?

This count is not from the Essential Atlas. The EA says the Ruusan Republic had 1,024 sectors, and that the Empire consolidated a few so it may be a little less, but no final exact number is given. But there is no implication there (or in any other source I am aware of) that the number of sectors in the Empire would be reduced to less than half of what it was in the Republic before it. My impression from this thread is that Thror here is giving us his SWU which diverges from the EU (and canon).

By "Ruusan Republic" you mean the Old Republic?

No. The Old Republic was a couple dozen millennia and the number of sectors drastically changed over that time. According to EU lore, there were millions of sectors in the Old Republic at the time of the Ruusan Reformation.

By "Ruusan Republic" I refer to the second Republic, as reformed by the Ruusan Reformation after the end of the thousand year Jedi-Sith War. In an effort to remove corruption and decentralize power, the Republic was reorganized into exactly 1,024 sectors, each represented by one senator in the Senate. Due to a moratorium on the creation of new sectors, this number of sectors lasted nearly 1,000 years until Chancellor Palpatine had it reversed to add some more sectors (and then under the Empire some were consolidated). This Republic is what Palpatine was referring to in AotC when he said, "I will not let this Republic, which has stood for a thousand years, be split in two.

The Ruusan Republic lasted from about 1,000 BBY to 19 BBY. I imagine that at the time, it would have been referred to as the "new Republic" when needed to differentiate it from the prior Republic, which would have been referred to the "old Republic." A couple decades into the Empire, the shorter lived second Republic was just commonly lumped in with the first Republic, which is understandable considering that the governmental differences of the two Republics were more minor when contrasted to the Empire.

In my SWU, New Republic historians refer to the second Republic as the Middle Republic.

Inquisitor1138 wrote:
No doubt the Empire consolidated some, and annexed others. So still around 1,024 sectors, give or take?

Yes. In my SWU, I'd say there were about 1,000 sectors in the classic era of the Empire. I can imagine one ISD per sector might be something that was actually approved by the Imperial Senate, with the implication that each sector would have the protection of one. But the fine print of the legislation may have been that the Imperial Navy can reallocate the ISDs as needed. Of course, many senators would be rightfully concerned about the militarization of the Empire, but I can imagine that enough senators were corrupt or believed their sectors would benefit for the vote to pass in the Imperial Senate. I see Imperial Senate approval as required because, to even build up a fleet of 1,000 ISDs by the classic era, construction on them would have had to start early in the Empire when the Senate had more power. Over the years the the military got larger and the Senate got weaker, so it became the easier to hide military spending from the Senate, which was pumped into the Death Star and other projects.

IMO 25,000 ISDs is just absurd, even for a Galactic Empire. The manufacturing requirements would be outrageous, when the Empire has many other things to construct. And the way I see it, if the Empire really had 25,000 ISDs, they wouldn't really need a Death Star.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
IMO 25,000 ISDs is just absurd, even for a Galactic Empire. The manufacturing requirements would be outrageous, when the Empire has many other things to construct. And the way I see it, if the Empire really had 25,000 ISDs, they wouldn't really need a Death Star.

You should steer clear of the Fractalsponge community, then. The general consensus there is that 25,000 ISDs is a laughably low number, and that ISDs are roughly equivalent to real-world destroyers, while a multitude of other, larger vessels serve as the main combatants.

I'm perfectly willing to accept 25,000 as a happy medium, especially when one factors in maintenance cycles and reserve formations. For example, in the real world, even though the United States Navy has a dozen or so aircraft carriers, only 1/3 of them will be deployed at a time; the other 2/3's are either undergoing long term maintenance and/or upgrades, or are training and working up for their next deployment. That automatically cuts the number of Star Destroyers on active duty to ~8,000 (although tbf, some of the ships on pre-deployment workup can be rushed into combat in an emergency). Then there's the various Oversector Fleets, which will serve as both an active reserve for the Sectors under their authority, plus whatever strategic reserves Palpatine is holding in the Core.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
You should steer clear of the Fractalsponge community, then. The general consensus there is that 25,000 ISDs is a laughably low number, and that ISDs are roughly equivalent to real-world destroyers, while a multitude of other, larger vessels serve as the main combatants.

Thanks for the warning. I look at the images when they are linked here, but I haven't spent much time reading the comments there. However, I am quite used to reading opinions of other SW fans I vehemently disagree with. It's really a requirement in this fandom.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
...IMO 25,000 ISDs is just absurd, even for a Galactic Empire. The manufacturing requirements would be outrageous, when the Empire has many other things to construct. And the way I see it, if the Empire really had 25,000 ISDs, they wouldn't really need a Death Star.

I'm perfectly willing to accept 25,000 as a happy medium, especially when one factors in maintenance cycles and reserve formations. For example, in the real world, even though the United States Navy has a dozen or so aircraft carriers, only 1/3 of them will be deployed at a time; the other 2/3's are either undergoing long term maintenance and/or upgrades, or are training and working up for their next deployment. That automatically cuts the number of Star Destroyers on active duty to ~8,000 (although tbf, some of the ships on pre-deployment workup can be rushed into combat in an emergency). Then there's the various Oversector Fleets, which will serve as both an active reserve for the Sectors under their authority, plus whatever strategic reserves Palpatine is holding in the Core.

I appreciate the time you took to explain your thought process, but I still think 25,000 drastically too much, for all the reasons I stated above. Even a thousand would take years, which means they would have had to start early in the Empire when the Imperial Senate had more power. In my SWU, the Imperial Senate would have had to approve the project, and 25 ISDs for every sector of the Empire is outrageous no matter how many of them are a part of oversector fleets and reserves. And even with 1,000, yes they would all not be in service at the same time so some would be in maintenance. And 25,000 ISD would make the Death Star obsolete, but it is canon that the Death Star was instrumental for the Empire to control the galaxy without the Senate. You don't need a Death Star if dozens of ISD could just show up in any rebellious system at any given moment. Dozens of ISD could easily destroy a planetary civilization and make a planet uninhabitable.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThrorII wrote:
I actually hand counted the number of sectors listed and drawn in the Essential Atlas maps, plus scoured star wars wiki for the core and colonies sector names.

I know they CLAIM 1024 sectors, but they only showed about 500 sectors, plus 50-60 unmarked core and colony sectors.

I thought you were just handwaving it because that's how you wanted it for your SW galaxy. I didn't realize that your sectors figure was based on your interpretation of published graphical evidence. I think I see where some confusion has come in.

These maps in the Atlas are two dimensional presentations of three dimensional space. We are looking "down" from galactic "up" so when you see the location of a specific system, we are only seeing where it is with respect to galactic NESW, not how far "up" or "down" it is in the galaxy.

Only three outer regions of the galaxy were ever given sector maps: the Expansion Region, the Mid Rim, and the Outer Rim. The reason for that is because the galaxy is "shallower" there from an up-down perspective. Those sectors could fill the "top to bottom" depth of the galaxy in their areas. In the Core Worlds, Colonies, and Inner Rim, the galaxy is "deeper," which means you have multiple layers of sectors "on top of" one another. Also, those inner regions of the galaxy are denser, which means you could have more star systems taking up less volume than those outer region sectors. This would be a nightmare to present graphically, so they didn't.

I also gained more insight about this directly from Essential Atlas co-author Jason Fry. When I noticed a couple errors in the Essential Atlas, I reached out to the email address on the SW official web resource devoted to the Essential Atlas (it included material that had been cut and official expansions of the EA). Jason Fry himself replied, as he was placed in charge of official galactic mapping the EU with the publication of the EA. We had a back-and-forth of a few emails. One of the errors I mentioned was a map's contradiction to the WEG fluff about the Tapani Sector. He acknowledged the errors, and one fix I suggested involved a three dimensional solution. He adamantly replied that he didn't like 3D solutions, which as you can tell was something he fully embraced in the production of the EA that had involved the reconciliation of many sources. This wasn't any denialism of a three dimensional galaxy – This was just a devotion to his stylistic approach to mapping out the galaxy. It had to simplify to two dimensions from a "top-down" view.

The inner regions were intentionally not given sector maps because it would be impossible to do so two dimensionally. But when you consider that the denser inner sectors would be smaller and in multiple layers, it is easier to visualize 1,000 sectors in the Empire. I hope this helps.
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Inquisitor1138
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plenty of compelling arguments, on all sides.
IRL, there is debate over whether we have ≈6,000 years of civilization, ≈12,000 or more. Now consider how much technology has advanced over the 20th century compared with the 19th. Or compare the 2nd millennium (1001-2000 AD) with the 1st (1-1000 AD).
The Star Wars galaxy, has had multiple Empires followed by ≈25,000 years of galactic Republics, for well over 35,000+ years of civilization(s). How many gestalt moments or technological singularities do you suppose they've had?
What is staggering and/or impossible to us, is passé to them.

In that context, i am perfectly comfortable in the middle, with the 25,000-30,000 ISDs, and no doubt that Palpatine/Sidious has plans for more; plans that require more...

The Galactic Empire may not have the Star Forge, but if their galaxy is reasonably like ours, then there are plenty of uninhabited systems that can be harvested for raw materials to make advanced materials...

And now i'm stuck thinking of the galaxy as a 32x32 chess/dejarik board...
I do agree, a realistic map would have to be 3d & layered; i was tackling that very problem, mapping a small part of our galaxy for a Rogue Trader WH40K campaign.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inquisitor1138 wrote:
IRL, there is debate over whether we have ≈6,000 years of civilization, ≈12,000 or more. Now consider how much technology has advanced over the 20th century compared with the 19th. Or compare the 2nd millennium (1001-2000 AD) with the 1st (1-1000 AD).
The Star Wars galaxy, has had multiple Empires followed by ≈25,000 years of galactic Republics, for well over 35,000+ years of civilization(s). How many gestalt moments or technological singularities do you suppose they've had?

Talk like this very quickly erodes my disbelief suspension. A 25,000 year galactic civilization alone is really unfathomable in real Earth human terms. On the long scale, technological advancements seem to happen very slow in Star Wars. Should humanity have survived that long? And how are film humans and humans from the thousands of years ago (but still highly advanced) both basically the same as modern Earth humans? Best to not be too concerned about these things. Star Wars taking place a "long" time ago in a galaxy "far, far away" is really "once upon a time".

In my game I rarely deal with the first 23,000 years of the Republic, and when I do it's usually only vaguely. Lucas wasn't concerned that time period either. It was only important that the Jedi and the Sith (a faction of the Jedi that splintered off) had a thousand year was that ended with a Sith defeat and the reformation of the Republic about 1,000 years before the films. The menace of the Sith finally returned so they could enact their revenge. The "thousand generations" time frame of the Republic and Jedi are really just backdrops to support an epic sense of scale, to help convey Obi-Wan's sense of loss for what the Empire destroyed.

ISDs only began development in the Clone Wars.
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Inquisitor1138
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Debating 'Certain Points of View' risks derailing the thread, so i'll leave it at we all see & interpret things differently. That, and i am used to being a bit of an oddball.

Minimalist or Maximalist, as long as the adventures are grand & the players have fun, the GM has done their job well, and what works for them is working!

Since i am middle of the road, and set in 15 BBY/4 EY, the sectors i'm cooking have zero ISDs, the Empire can't build them fast enough, no matter how many credits they throw at the problem, or outsource & add shipyards. They do get more of the Clone Wars' leftovers, Republic and in some cases Separatist ships & assets. Separatist Holdouts & Pirates are the biggest threats, the Reconquest of the Rim is in full swing. Hunting Jedi survivors is a greater concern than any minor rebellions. So more throwbacks and filler is what these Moffs get.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think both rouge one and maybe more rebles shows the "effective" size of the imperial fleets here and there.

In Rouge one the empire did dispatch an entire fleet.
we can maybe even go to the other movies as well and simply do a rough count

we see few if any cases of more than at most 2 dozen ships, and most time we see the larger ones only with little to none of the support ships ever shown, the
few that are will still be included in the fairly "low" number of actual ships.

Reading up on the various forces clashing at battles here and there, we also see the same patterns, at most a couple of dozen ships.
even the mighty katana fleet from legends was 200 strong.

so I think we really need to consider that fleets can be fairly "small" and local, while larger commands will include several fleets and armies, much like controlling several nations militiaries under one overall administirative command.

so in short a sector fleet is as large as ALL the military assets in said sector.
the secor Fleet is not a battle formation but an administrave commad.
the individual fleet (system fleet) is the largest battle commad and is often as we see in the couple of dozen warships.

I thiks this approach makes any such forces much easier to manage
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