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RexMundiAbu
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Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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 Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:49 am Post subject: Imperial Sector Fleet |
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Hi , I am wondering if anyone has ever worked out ( using the old imperial sourcebook ) a total Imperial sector fleet , and got a list of all the capital ships e.g. total has x amount of Imperial star destroyers , x amount of dreadnaught heavy cruisers etc.
I allways wanted to do this , so that I could keep track of any and all vessels that rebels/pirates destroyed or captured . To have a finite amount of imperial ships in the sector that as the campaign progressed I would be able to see the imperial ships number get smaller .
( it would have to ba a campaign after endor , when perhaps imperial sectors would be less able to call on significant reinforcements ) |
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griff
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:49 am Post subject: |
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Welcome to the pit.
While I have never done.this for star wars, I have done this for another game robotech. I found it helpful to us a spreadsheet program to do all the calcutations for me. All I had to do was input the ship and its compliment of personnel and smaller craft and use a formula times the number of the original ship. That made it easier to adjust the full compliment of personnel for the entire fleet by changing one number on the spreedsheet. This sound interesting do for the Empire, I might try this tonight.
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wildfire
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Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:54 am Post subject: |
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I'm work on a sector source book for my home campaign and art of that i was going to work out what ships/squadrons/fleets etc where in the sector wasn't going to be a full sector fleet and I've haven't done any work on it but if/when I get round to it will post on the forums.
Exactly for the reasons you put forward  |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Imperial Sector Fleet |
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| RexMundiAbu wrote: | Hi , I am wondering if anyone has ever worked out ( using the old imperial sourcebook ) a total Imperial sector fleet , and got a list of all the capital ships e.g. total has x amount of Imperial star destroyers , x amount of dreadnaught heavy cruisers etc.
I allways wanted to do this , so that I could keep track of any and all vessels that rebels/pirates destroyed or captured . To have a finite amount of imperial ships in the sector that as the campaign progressed I would be able to see the imperial ships number get smaller .
( it would have to ba a campaign after endor , when perhaps imperial sectors would be less able to call on significant reinforcements ) |
I've considered something similar in the past, but it rapidly becomes an exercise in futility. At the lowest organizational level (the line), there is no set number of ships or ship types, and not all the line descriptions match with the ships supposed to be included in them. Even if you could generate solid numbers based on what's available, you will end up with around 2,000 ships in a sector group, so it would take a lot of effort by one pirate crew to whittle that down. You might have better luck with a squadron or system force.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with crmcneill on this.
I've been thinking about this matter somewhat, and I'm of the opinion that the way the ImpSB has it written up, there's almost a level too many to adequately mesh well with the sorts of numbers we read about elsewhere in the EU.
I think I would eliminate the systems level, and say that systems might be patrolled by local authorities, rather than the Imperial Navy. These might be under the authority of the planetary governor, but they're not part of the Navy order of battle.
It'd be interesting to read some of all of your thoughts. |
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Darth Ginzain
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Joined: 25 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I've played with this a few times, and as luck would have it can't find my notebook atm. It's not too hard to do once you get rolling. Start with defining the line types, then build your squadron's based on the lines. Then build them up from there. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:17 am Post subject: |
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You might be able to build a sector fleet using this method, but the line descriptions in the ImpSB are too vague to generate anything uniform. Variable numbers, variable ship types and quantities, not to mention that at higher levels, ships are mixed and matched to fit specific mission requirements. Plus, at the squadron level, there are two separate OB's for the Attack and Heavy Attack lines. On top of that, the descriptions don't always match up; there are supposed to be two torpedo spheres to a line, yet the description of the torpedo sphere states that there are only six of them currently in service.
IMO, the best way to generate random encounters with naval lines is to use the encounter tables in The Far Orbit Project.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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RexMundiAbu
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Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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While I agree with some of the comments here I also do not think some of Crmceill's last post has anything to do with the origional question : the Torpedo sphere problem - well a normal sector navy does not include bombard lines so has 0 torpedo spheres .
Also the best way to generate random encounters may well be to use the encounter tables in the Far Orbit Project , but this was not about random encounters - its was about getting a total navy strength of a sector .
Next the lines descriptions may be vague BUT in your sector you decide what each contains and how varied they may be .
For example a standard sector navy could contain 100 attack lines , and in this sector all attack lines contain 4 strike cruisers , 100 heavy attack lines , which contain 4 dreadnaught heavy cruisers etc. It can be done if you want to do it .
Lastly this sector navy was never going to be taken on by 1 small group of pirates , but I was thinking that a sector could have many small pirate groups - also a rebel sector group ( mostly scattered fighter bases with a few small capital ships as well ) these groups PLUS the players would all take a toll on the fleet and as the campaign goes on more rebels could arrive , be recruited from pirates ( privateers ) so that eventually the sector fleet is diminished . |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16173
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| RexMundiAbu wrote: | | While I agree with some of the comments here I also do not think some of Crmceill's last post has anything to do with the origional question : the Torpedo sphere problem - well a normal sector navy does not include bombard lines so has 0 torpedo spheres . |
However, Torpedo Spheres are included in the OB, and the way they are included is an indicator of the haphazard design of the OB. While there are no Bombard Fleets listed as standard for a Sector Fleet, the only way for them to be attached (per the OB) is at the Fleet level, but a Bombard Fleet would be equipped with (at a minimum) 24 Torpedo Spheres, even though the description of the Torpedo Sphere specifically states that there are only 6 Torpedo Spheres currently in service. Therefore, if a person were to ever use the chapter to generate a Sector Fleet that included Torpedo Spheres, that person would have to take liberties with either the OB or with the Torpedo Sphere to make it function. Once that step is taken, a person may begin to wonder what other liberties should or should not be taken with the OB.
| Quote: | | Also the best way to generate random encounters may well be to use the encounter tables in the Far Orbit Project , but this was not about random encounters - its was about getting a total navy strength of a sector . |
And unless you are going to have your group encounter the entire sector fleet all at once, it will be picking it apart one piece at a time. Since lines are the units most likely to be encountered, the Far Orbit Project uses a simple D6 roll to generate which kind of line the players encounter, with some notation that pretty much any line encountered will be of sufficient strength to overwhelm a group of PCs, unless they are equipped with an absurdly powerful ship.
| Quote: | Next the lines descriptions may be vague BUT in your sector you decide what each contains and how varied they may be .
For example a standard sector navy could contain 100 attack lines , and in this sector all attack lines contain 4 strike cruisers , 100 heavy attack lines , which contain 4 dreadnaught heavy cruisers etc. It can be done if you want to do it . |
And again, this is sufficient to create A listed OB for A Sector, but it is insufficient to generate a standardized list that applies to every sector.
Also, such uniformity breeds rigidity, in that an attack line composed specifically of cruisers lacks the flexibility of a line composed of cruiser and frigates, in that the more numerous frigates can be deployed singly or in pairs and cover more missions with their greater numbers. They are also not as numbers intensive with regard to crew and logistics. How then do you decide what situation requires a group of cruisers and which requires a group of cruisers and which requires a mixed group of cruisers and frigates (and to what ratios are the two intermixed), or a group of just frigates? Per the OB, this sorting occurs at the Systems Force level, and is decided on a case-by-case basis by the commander of the Systems Force, but provides the players with no information as to how such decisions are made.
The closest I ever got to a solution was to break the Line down into a smaller group, which I called a Section, which was then composed of either 1 heavy cruiser, 2 medium cruisers, 3 light cruisers or frigates or 6 corvettes, then crunching what kinds of sections could be used to make up a line based on the line's description and projected numerical strength. The numbers never quite match up, but it gets you closer than you would get just going off the OB. Eventually, I gave up in frustration and started generating my own version of the OB by using a much larger selection of line types and reducing the size of the individual line and increasing the number of lines per squadron. Squadrons could then be redesignated by mission based on the type of line assigned.
| Quote: | | Lastly this sector navy was never going to be taken on by 1 small group of pirates , but I was thinking that a sector could have many small pirate groups - also a rebel sector group ( mostly scattered fighter bases with a few small capital ships as well ) these groups PLUS the players would all take a toll on the fleet and as the campaign goes on more rebels could arrive , be recruited from pirates ( privateers ) so that eventually the sector fleet is diminished . |
But then, if it isn't just going to be the PCs taking on the sector fleet, why bother with counting the ships? Other units, both pirates and rebels, will be doing their fair share, which will never be seen first-hand by the PCs. To what purpose (game-wise) are you counting total ships destroyed? Isn't it sufficient for the purposes of the game to leave the actions of the NPC units in the background and keep the general effect on the Sector Group...well, general? Besides, if things get too bad, won't the Sector Group be able to pull in reinforcements from other sectors? You would then have to generate a Sector Fleet list for those Sector Fleets to show what they had available.
I only ever approached generating a Sector Fleet OB as an intellectual exercise to help me understand the arrangement. Generating something like this to actually use in a game seems a lot of effort for not much return.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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RexMundiAbu
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Once again , torpedo spheres are not the issue and I fail to see why you keep mentioning them ? I'm not interested whether you think the OB is haphazard or not . Yes I realize that the book is not perfect and is infact littered with mistakes - but you CAN get a sector fleets strength if you wish .
Now I could be wrong here , but wasnt the imp sourcebook a plan for the imp military ? meaning that in time the plan is for more Torpedo spheres to be built ? - In my plans I used modified Victory star destroyers instead of Torpedo Spheres as they have many missile tubes allready , but I digress ...
| Quote: | Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:38 am Post subject:
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RexMundiAbu wrote:
While I agree with some of the comments here I also do not think some of Crmceill's last post has anything to do with the origional question : the Torpedo sphere problem - well a normal sector navy does not include bombard lines so has 0 torpedo spheres .
However, Torpedo Spheres are included in the OB, and the way they are included is an indicator of the haphazard design of the OB. While there are no Bombard Fleets listed as standard for a Sector Fleet, the only way for them to be attached (per the OB) is at the Fleet level, but a Bombard Fleet would be equipped with (at a minimum) 24 Torpedo Spheres, even though the description of the Torpedo Sphere specifically states that there are only 6 Torpedo Spheres currently in service. Therefore, if a person were to ever use the chapter to generate a Sector Fleet that included Torpedo Spheres, that person would have to take liberties with either the OB or with the Torpedo Sphere to make it function. Once that step is taken, a person may begin to wonder what other liberties should or should not be taken with the OB.
Quote:
Also the best way to generate random encounters may well be to use the encounter tables in the Far Orbit Project , but this was not about random encounters - its was about getting a total navy strength of a sector .
And unless you are going to have your group encounter the entire sector fleet all at once, it will be picking it apart one piece at a time. Since lines are the units most likely to be encountered, the Far Orbit Project uses a simple D6 roll to generate which kind of line the players encounter, with some notation that pretty much any line encountered will be of sufficient strength to overwhelm a group of PCs, unless they are equipped with an absurdly powerful ship
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The group does not have to engage the whole fleet at once for me to want to know what the fleet actually is .
| Quote: | | And again, this is sufficient to create A listed OB for A Sector, but it is insufficient to generate a standardized list that applies to every sector. |
You seem to be missing the point again , - the goal was to create 1 sectors navy , not every sectors navy . Sectors from different regions could have vastly different fleets .
| Quote: | But then, if it isn't just going to be the PCs taking on the sector fleet, why bother with counting the ships? Other units, both pirates and rebels, will be doing their fair share, which will never be seen first-hand by the PCs. To what purpose (game-wise) are you counting total ships destroyed? Isn't it sufficient for the purposes of the game to leave the actions of the NPC units in the background and keep the general effect on the Sector Group...well, general? Besides, if things get too bad, won't the Sector Group be able to pull in reinforcements from other sectors? You would then have to generate a Sector Fleet list for those Sector Fleets to show what they had available.
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Again , I want to know what the fleet totals are , to be able to keep track of losses , damaged ships etc. for example the players know that a certain attack line has just battled some pirates and ambush them ( with rebel allies ) knowing that the ships are battle damaged and without fighters say .
I think I mentioned that the best way for this to work would be a after Endor type campaign where imperials may not be able to call in reinfourcements from other sectors as they could be rivals or whatever .
If you think that this intellectual exercise is a lot of effort for not much return - cool , but your points on why it cannot or should not be done are wrong |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| RexMundiAbu wrote: | | Once again , torpedo spheres are not the issue and I fail to see why you keep mentioning them ? I'm not interested whether you think the OB is haphazard or not . Yes I realize that the book is not perfect and is infact littered with mistakes - but you CAN get a sector fleets strength if you wish . |
I mention them because they are listed as part of the OB, even if they are not included in every sector fleet. They are an issue because the manner in which they are included in the OB conflicts with other material included in the same book, and are therefore an indicator that other material in the book is potentially in error or in conflict. This, in turn, should mean that anyone looking to generate an Imperial Sector Group OB should view the information contained in the Imperial Sourcebook with a degree of skepticism. YMMV.
| Quote: | | Now I could be wrong here , but wasnt the imp sourcebook a plan for the imp military ? meaning that in time the plan is for more Torpedo spheres to be built ? - In my plans I used modified Victory star destroyers instead of Torpedo Spheres as they have many missile tubes allready , but I digress ... |
The Order of Battle chapter was intended as an outline, with a plan for expansion. The fleet sections was written in the present tense, as in "this is what a sector fleet contains right now", and as such, specifically stated that Torpedo Spheres were present in the fleet in sufficient strength to deploy multiple fleet-level units at that moment, while the exact same source material says that there are only enough Torpedo Spheres to put three Lines together. Obviously a conflict.
I agree with you that two Victory Star Destroyers are a better fit, especially since the Torpedo Sphere has sufficient crew and weapons strength to qualify as a Line-level asset like the Star Destroyer. There is even in-universe evidence of a pair of Victory-Class Star Destroyers being deployed as a unit (see the Battle of Khuiumin ), so it would be more in line with the official material to see two Victory I's deployed together than it would to see Torpedo Spheres together.
| Quote: | | The group does not have to engage the whole fleet at once for me to want to know what the fleet actually is . |
| Quote: | | You seem to be missing the point again , - the goal was to create 1 sectors navy , not every sectors navy . Sectors from different regions could have vastly different fleets . |
| Quote: | | Again , I want to know what the fleet totals are , to be able to keep track of losses , damaged ships etc. for example the players know that a certain attack line has just battled some pirates and ambush them ( with rebel allies ) knowing that the ships are battle damaged and without fighters say . |
Well, then, here are a couple quotes for you. | The Imperial Sourcebook wrote: | "A Sector Group can be expected to contain at least 2400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1600 combat ships. Thousands of Sector Groups are at the Emperor's command..."
"While the organization and Order of Battle of a Sector Group has been outlined according to the numbers in these reports, these numbers can best be considered averages. And in the wake of the Emperor's command to mobilize the Imperial war machine, they may even be considered minimum levels of force. Also, the forces deployed in that sector will depend on the importance, size and location of that sector." |
You are talking about tracking damage and combat losses to over two thousand ships (more if you intend to catalog the losses suffered by your allies as well). What's more, not all of these ships even have stats from which to generate combat damage (unless you have home brew stats made up for the Evakmar-KDY Troop Transport, the recon-modified light cruiser, the Delta-Class troop transport, the Rendili R/M Deepdock Facility, and the Loronar Field Secured Container Transport, all of which are found in the standard OB). You are talking about a LOT of paperwork and bookkeeping that will distract from the main point of the game: the story. If all you are doing is counting the number of ships destroyed while running different variations on the same encounter theme over and over again, it will get old very quickly.
On top of that, you have already stated that the characters will be just one of many groups contributing to the push to defeat this sector fleet. Unless you are planning to script out each and every encounter not just by the players but by their NPC allies as well, there is no need to generate the kinds of numbers you are talking about.
For the interests of streamlining a campaign, I would suggest the following in broad terms:1). Outline the campaign in broad terms, with pivotal events like battles or large skirmishes separated by multiple small encounters.
2). Generate some random encounter tables (say 4 or 5), with each table representing a different point in the campaign. For instance, Encounter Table A results in encounters with Imperial Navy Line units at full strength, while Table E results in encounters with similar units at reduced strength, with reduced TIE complements, damaged ships, or missing ships.
3). Begin the campaign with units drawn strictly from Table A. After 4-6 standard encounters, bring the players together with other allies and have a major battle (using 4-6 rolls on Table A to generate a large enemy squadron). If the players win, you repeat the process rolling on Table B (with random encounters from Tables A and C, representing units either more heavily engaged or relatively unengaged up to this point)
4). Continue this process up until the final battle, composed mainly of Table E units and the Sector Fleet's flag squadron.
5). If the PCs win the final battle, all remaining enemy ships jump to hyperspace and abandon the sector. The end. Cue the Ewok celebration.
| Quote: | | I think I mentioned that the best way for this to work would be a after Endor type campaign where imperials may not be able to call in reinfourcements from other sectors as they could be rivals or whatever . |
"May not" and "could be" are not overly convincing as absolutes. Unless you use the terms "will not" and "are" in their place, it implies that reinforcements will become available at some point. If you want the sector to be isolated and cut off from reinforcements, then fine, write the story that way, but it still leaves the problem mentioned above of generating combat losses for thousands of starships.
| Quote: | | If you think that this intellectual exercise is a lot of effort for not much return - cool , but your points on why it cannot or should not be done are wrong |
Actually, my points are based on personal experience and being further ahead of the curve than you when it comes to realizing the fruitlessness of trying to generate too much data for a realistic campaign.
If you are wanting to generate an OB just because you can, go right ahead; I've tried it myself. But if you are doing it solely because you want to include it as part of a campaign, you will end up drowning in unnecessary calculations.
However, if you are adamant about doing things your way and micro-managing fleet losses for an entire sector for two different fleets, you can go right ahead and do that as well. I would warn your players to bring a book to read between encounters while you are making calculations.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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RexMundiAbu
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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Once again your suggestions are irrelevant to the origional point :/
Players would not need to bring anything to keep them occupied as it would be easy to have the forces worked out before they arrived , and to tot up losses after they left ...
Yes I'm wanting to keep a record of the full sector fleet , yes I have some stats for most of these vessels ( homebrew ) one spreadsheet could keep track of the totals once i had decided them so not a lot of paperwork needed , no it wouldnt get old quickly , no I wouldnt need to script out every encounter by the players and their allies , yes there is a need to generate the numbers I am talking about .
| Quote: | "May not" and "could be" are not overly convincing as absolutes. Unless you use the terms "will not" and "are" in their place, it implies that reinforcements will become available at some point. If you want the sector to be isolated and cut off from reinforcements, then fine, write the story that way, but it still leaves the problem mentioned above of generating combat losses for thousands of starships.
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Well in my absolute version an Imperial sector who's moff has went rogue and became a warlord has a normal sector navy under his command , his sector has variuos small pirate groups in it and a rebel sector force that while tiny at the start of the campaign gets larger as time goes on . The moff cannot send for reinforcements as the surrounding sectors have their own problems and are hostile to said moff . Is this absolute enough ?
why are you so negative and eager to push your suggestions that are not wanted ? I await your reply unless by that time I will have drowned by unnecessary calculations ... |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16173
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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You came here asking for input. I gave it, based on my own personal experience with trying to generate an OB for a campaign. Since you are obviously interested in doing things your own way regardless of the advice you received, and already have all your own answers, I'm moved to wonder why you bothered asking in the first place.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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RexMundiAbu
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| I asked a question , you didnt reply to that question... |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16173
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: Imperial Sector Fleet |
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| RexMundiAbu wrote: | Hi , I am wondering if anyone has ever worked out ( using the old imperial sourcebook ) a total Imperial sector fleet , and got a list of all the capital ships e.g. total has x amount of Imperial star destroyers , x amount of dreadnaught heavy cruisers etc.
I allways wanted to do this , so that I could keep track of any and all vessels that rebels/pirates destroyed or captured . To have a finite amount of imperial ships in the sector that as the campaign progressed I would be able to see the imperial ships number get smaller .
( it would have to ba a campaign after endor , when perhaps imperial sectors would be less able to call on significant reinforcements ) |
You asked this question. I answered, based on my own experience, that it was not something I recommended, and provided examples as to why. You decided it wasn't what you wanted to hear and decided to do your own thing. That thing, apparently, is to watch numbers get smaller on a list for your own personal enjoyment, even though the majority of the action that causes that number to scroll down will be the result of your own imagination rather than the actions of your player characters (unless you are planning on having your PCs take on and destroy all ~2400 ships in the Sector Fleet one at a time).
No one here is going to force you to play your campaign differently just because we don't like how you're doing it. This, however, does not sound like a campaign I would want to play in, as you (the GM) are concentrating far too much on extraneous numbers than on the story line. That being said, I hope it works out for you. I'm done with this conversation.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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