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Raven Redstar
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 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | Hmm,
"Luck? In my experience there's no such thing."
Wouldn't Luck be some manifestation of the Force? And if so wouldn't be better to either tie to to FP or Force skills?
Just thinking. |
One could rename the skill "Minor Manifestations of the Force"
But, keep in mind, that for every non-jedi in the galaxy, which there are numerous, they equate those minor acts of the force as crazy random happenstance/luck.
| Quote: | I think the simplest and most logical would be to handle NPC Luck exactly the same way one is currently handling NPC Character Points, whatever way that is. I see no real reason this should change only because the actual currency used changes. If all your NPCs have CPs to spend, go for it and give them all Luck instead. If you only bother with CPs for named/important/powerful NPCs, the same should be true of Luck. Just assign the NPC a level of the Luck Skill enough to get the same number of LPs as you would now assign CPs. Well, I guess this could be a problem if you often give NPS a lot of CPs. Personally, I don't remember ever giving an NPC more than 6, at most 8 CPs.
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I suppose it wouldn't change much, because I only give major villains character points to spend. How often do you, and those of you who do give mildly experienced minor characters character points, use them against characters?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Plenty of times.. Though they are most often used to up say the storm trooper captain's dodge/soak, or that rad troopers melee attack roll.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: |
Oh, and going back for a minute, just out of idle curiosity:
This is obviously a shot in the dark, but how old are your players? Because my experience would seem to indicate that, while "D&D poisoning" can certainly be a factor, the whole issue mostly comes down to maturity, both as a player and as a person. Eris knows I myself and my old group (also absolutely wonderful players, I miss them a lot) also started out like this. Then we just grew up - well, at least as players. |
The youngest player is in his 20s and the oldest is pushing 70, with the pack weighting in at around 40ish. It's not that they are immature, per say, but that they can't "unlearn what they have learned". When younger players WITH NOT D&D EXPERIENCE play, they do alright.
What I see happen with D&D players is that they pick up habits and tactics that work and even make sense in D&D and bring them along to other RPGs. It's not entirely a conscious decision, either. When their tried and true methods don't work, the players just can't accept it (because they always worked in the past) so the "problem" must be elsewhere- either the GM isn't doing things right or there is something wrong with the game system.
I specially point the finger at D&D players here, as people who are used to player other games, tend to be more adaptable. But long time D&D players just assume that things work the way they do in D&D no matter what the game. Ort at the least that the SHOULD work that way.
It's really the bane of my RPGing experience. Some of the better players can recognize it, and catch themselves slipping into the D&D mindset, but most tend to jusrt get confused and angry.
I've got bad memories of this sort of thing going back 30 years, sometimes with the same players! |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: |
I suppose it wouldn't change much, because I only give major villains character points to spend. How often do you, and those of you who do give mildly experienced minor characters character points, use them against characters? |
I kinda use a rule of thumb I swiped from the Jame Bond RPG. Generic mooks don't ususaly get CPs, minor NPCs that have a name listed in their write up get some points.
The PCs are better if if the crime boss just tells some thugs to kill the PCs than if he tells "Charlie" "Frank" and "Sam" to dispose of them. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | It's not that they are immature, per say, but that they can't "unlearn what they have learned". When younger players WITH NOT D&D EXPERIENCE play, they do alright.
What I see happen with D&D players is that they pick up habits and tactics that work and even make sense in D&D and bring them along to other RPGs. It's not entirely a conscious decision, either. When their tried and true methods don't work, the players just can't accept it (because they always worked in the past) so the "problem" must be elsewhere- either the GM isn't doing things right or there is something wrong with the game system.
I specially point the finger at D&D players here, as people who are used to player other games, tend to be more adaptable. But long time D&D players just assume that things work the way they do in D&D no matter what the game. Ort at the least that the SHOULD work that way.
It's really the bane of my RPGing experience. Some of the better players can recognize it, and catch themselves slipping into the D&D mindset, but most tend to jusrt get confused and angry.
I've got bad memories of this sort of thing going back 30 years, sometimes with the same players! |
well said.. Some of the poorest players i have met in the past 12 years or so were those who got into gaming via DND3.0... and if the game they played didn't match what they learned via that system (character builds with feats etc) they were not happy.
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Leon The Lion
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:45 am Post subject: |
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atgxtg:
Seems "D&D poisoning" really is at the root of your troubles. My sympathies go with you. In the backward little corner of the planet I'm from (the middle of Europe and the end of the world), D&D didn't really show up much, let alone become popular, untill, I think, about 15 years ago. Even now it's definitely not the only gateway RPG for many (though, sadly, it seems to quickly gain ground). Most of us "old timers" (meaning 30+) cut our teeth on "Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay" and "Cyberpunk 2020", which were the first RPGs to get here. A little later we ware also into "Legend of the Five Rings". Well, the White Wolf "World of Darkness" line also showed up, but I've never touched that stuff either.
The only advice I can offer is, on the whole, rather depressing. In the last decade, I've learned the hard way the wisdom in the maxim: "No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming". It can be a hard pill to swallow, especially if, like me last time, you have to keep swallowing it for six years straight. But nothing good can come from forcing yourself to play a game when you're just not having fun. When you've gamed with the same people for a while, and they show no signs of the situation improving, or even a possbility of improvement... Then the best you can do is bow out and try to find a better game.
| Raven Redstar wrote: | | How often do you, and those of you who do give mildly experienced minor characters character points, use them against characters? |
I'm similiar to atgxtg in that regard. Generally, only named/important NPCs, friend or foe, get CPs in my game. "Mooks" (though the monicker is not always exactly fitting, as some of them can be quite poweful, by beginning character standards especially) don't get CPs. So, for example, enemy Stormies (as opposed to friendly Stormies, of which my players have met a few) run around without CPs. It's the Darths who boss them around that get CPs. Depending on how powerful a given NPC is supposed to be, I'll assign between 4 and 8 CPs. And those are usually spent in the same way as PCs spend them, on keeping the character alive and in the fight, or mitigating truly disastrous rolls, much less often on boosting attacks and damage.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: | | "No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming". It can be a hard pill to swallow, especially if, like me last time, you have to keep swallowing it for six years straight. |
If it was not for my convention gaming with our Sparks group, i would not have had any gaming other than a sporadic game day here and there for almost 8 years now. So i know what you are on about.
| Quote: | | I'm similiar to atgxtg in that regard. Generally, only named/important NPCs, friend or foe, get CPs in my game. "Mooks" (though the monicker is not always exactly fitting, as some of them can be quite poweful, by beginning character standards especially) don't get CPs. So, for example, enemy Stormies (as opposed to friendly Stormies, of which my players have met a few) run around without CPs. It's the Darths who boss them around that get CPs. Depending on how powerful a given NPC is supposed to be, I'll assign between 4 and 8 CPs. And those are usually spent in the same way as PCs spend them, on keeping the character alive and in the fight, or mitigating truly disastrous rolls, much less often on boosting attacks and damage. |
Well a book listed mook (army trooper/stormie) gets 0-3cp. I usually give the heavy weapon guy 2, the rest 1, and the officer 3. Unless i make them more than just green/regulars, in which case i up them accordingly.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
well said.. Some of the poorest players i have met in the past 12 years or so were those who got into gaming via DND3.0... and if the game they played didn't match what they learned via that system (character builds with feats etc) they were not happy |
Thev have gotten a little better with 3.0. The AD&D era was worse, although 4E is another step in dumbing it down. I ran one group in RQ3 once, and when a PC got his arm chopped off the rest reacted as if I had violated some unwritten rule of gaming, and looked at me as if I had actually cut the player's arm off.
Player 1:"What you mean permanently? That's not right.
GM: Seem right to me. How often have you been able to put your arm back on.
Player 2: But that's not fair. He didn't get any warning or anything.
GM: What did you expect an axe to do?
| garhkal wrote: |
Well a book listed mook (army trooper/stormie) gets 0-3cp. I usually give the heavy weapon guy 2, the rest 1, and the officer 3. Unless i make them more than just green/regulars, in which case i up them accordingly. |
I've done stuff like that, too. I ran one adventure where the bad guys were a squad of troopers with the usual skills, but with an unsual number of CPs (2D6) and intelligence (they didn't act like idiots, used cover, filled the place up with smoke, used medpacs, coordinated fire, and they didn't just charge the PCs). You should have heard the players sqeal. A Jedi, two bounty hunters with heavy blaster at 7D, and a Wookiee with 6D STR and a sixpac of STs make them cry foul. Like they had to be tactical geniuses to figure out that getting in close with a Jedi or Wookiee was a bad idea. The fact that none of the PCs were carrying anything that could shoot out past 50m except the Wook (bowcaster) was an unexpected perk. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | garhkal wrote: |
well said.. Some of the poorest players i have met in the past 12 years or so were those who got into gaming via DND3.0... and if the game they played didn't match what they learned via that system (character builds with feats etc) they were not happy |
Thev have gotten a little better with 3.0. The AD&D era was worse, although 4E is another step in dumbing it down. I ran one group in RQ3 once, and when a PC got his arm chopped off the rest reacted as if I had violated some unwritten rule of gaming, and looked at me as if I had actually cut the player's arm off.
Player 1:"What you mean permanently? That's not right.
GM: Seem right to me. How often have you been able to put your arm back on.
Player 2: But that's not fair. He didn't get any warning or anything.
GM: What did you expect an axe to do? |
Reminds me of one group up in Hattisburg... I was one of 3 new players into a group of 5 steady players.. Of the other 2, one was a flat newbie to gaming, and came cause his brother was in the group (and he had just moved down to live nearer his bro/mom), the other was a retread from 3.5/path finder.
First adventure we were acosted by a pair of Wights who drain levels.
when he asked "Where's my save against their level drain" Why is it permanent?? and was told that is how 1e/2e is, he flipped!
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Quetzacotl
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | Thev have gotten a little better with 3.0. The AD&D era was worse, although 4E is another step in dumbing it down. I ran one group in RQ3 once, and when a PC got his arm chopped off the rest reacted as if I had violated some unwritten rule of gaming, and looked at me as if I had actually cut the player's arm off.
Player 1:"What you mean permanently? That's not right.
GM: Seem right to me. How often have you been able to put your arm back on.
Player 2: But that's not fair. He didn't get any warning or anything.
GM: What did you expect an axe to do? |
What exactly happened here that you would cut off the whole arm? |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | | What exactly happened here that you would cut off the whole arm? |
I didn't. I only cut off 68% of it! 
Specifically, in RuneQuest, if a hit location takes twice or more of it's hit points in cutting damage from a single attack it is severed. It if happens iover multiple attacks the limb is just maimed.
Then you roll % dice to see how much of the limb is "lost".In this case the player rolled a 68 and wasn't left with much below the elbow.
And the guy was lucky that it happened to his arm instead of his head. Losing 68% of that is fatal even to player who don't bother to use it.
So it wasn't like I singled the player out for any special cruelty or punishment, just part of the normal play for that game system. It's not even an especially commonplace occurrence in normal combat either.
THere are also several ways of fixing it too, inlcduing applying magical healing to reattach the severed limb within a few minutes of the amputation. |
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Quetzacotl
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:24 am Post subject: |
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Ah ok, then I don't understand the reaction of your players  |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | | Ah ok, then I don't understand the reaction of your players |
I do. It's called "D&D doesn't work that way! THis is wrong! You're a mean DM!!"
Now factor in little things like the soon to be shorthanded PC arbitrarily deciding that "shields are for wusses: about a minute beofre the fight started, thus leadving his primary parrying weapon on the ground, and the whole thing was somewhat self-inflicted.
But shields didn't mean much in AD&D (+1 AC) so the players couldn't believe that. So it had to be the GM's fault. !Or else something was wrong with the game.
It is hardly a unique reaction either. Just one of the more obvious ones. You can reproduce something similar with just about any group of hard core D&Ders.
The good players will notice this tendancy and learn to deal with it, but it''s kinda hardwired, and they will tend to react in D&D terms if they aren't careful.
I had one mission where the PCs were on a scouting mission for the Jedi and discovered a secret Separatist base. The PCs had done a great job up to then and discovered more information than had been expected, including a couple of big surprises when the spotted a couple of major NPCs arrive in a shuttle. But...
THe PCs got a strong urge to go into the base and "clean out the dungeon". They had gotten into a minor skirmish with a patrol droid and were in "let's have a fight" mode. They were just about at the door to the base when someone said "What are we doing?!!" The group stopped just shy of attacking a full garrison with a handful of characters, and got out of there, covering their tracks to make the droid's destruction appear accidental.
But it was close. |
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Quetzacotl
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Didn't the players have access to the Rules of the game you were running?
I mean they could simply read that you're right and they should have known that before hand...
Me and my group, we're normally playing DSA (or in englisch it would be TBE = The Black Eye). In this game, dodge is one of the worst skills ever.
But when we decided to try SWD6, everyone read the game and it was obvious that dodging is one of the key skills for survival in that game.
If they just assume that the rules for RQ are the same as the rules for D&D, without looking at the rules once, then they're just plain dumb -.-
Regarding the "let's have a fight" thing:
Yeah, kinda had that Problem in my adventure as well... We're playing in the Clone Wars era, and they were supposed to get onto Venator-class Star Destroyer (that was taken over by droids but those droids coudn't really use it because of a lock-down mechanism on board that would lock them out from nearly all systems and shut them down). So what did they do? Get on Board, go STRAIGHT to the Bridge while using the comlink (thus more or less announcing that they're coming) and fight with the bosses there...
The only reason they survived that was because I didn't know what is strong and what not (was the first "real" fight in this System for us, only 2 very small ones before). So only one of them got Wounded, rest nearly unhamed because of bad luck on my side (nearly every third roll was NOT a 1 on the Wild Die -.-).
So yeah, when it comes to fighting, players tend to forget that their characters are not gods and can (easily) die -.- |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | | Didn't the players have access to the Rules of the game you were running? |
Sure. Some of them even boguth their own ruklebook.
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I mean they could simply read that you're right and they should have known that before hand... |
Indeed they could have. What's your point?
You see, the thing with the D&D mindset is that while they could have done these or a host of other sensible things during the coruse of campaign, didn't believe they should have needed to as they were experienced gamers and therefore knew how the rule SHOULD work. If the rules didn't work that way then something was obviously wrong with them.
Yeah, it seems stupid and idotic to me, but I'm not kidding. If you don't believe it (and I don't blame you), just try it. Go get an group of hard core D&Ders and try running them in virtually any system that isn't D&D based. You can give them rule books, explain things to them until you pass out from repetition, even run them for years, and yet they will revert.
| Quote: |
Me and my group, we're normally playing DSA (or in englisch it would be TBE = The Black Eye). In this game, dodge is one of the worst skills ever.
But when we decided to try SWD6, everyone read the game and it was obvious that dodging is one of the key skills for survival in that game. |
You sound like a bunch of level headed clear thinking gamers. How much D&D do you play?
| Quote: |
If they just assume that the rules for RQ are the same as the rules for D&D, without looking at the rules once, then they're just plain dumb -.- |
Dumb? Yes. Plain dumb? Not quite. Some of them were so dumb as to completely surprise me. Others were just heavily conditioned, and could snap out of it. And it is a form of conditioning. Basically, you learn what the "laws of the universe" are like through first hand experience. So after years and years some things become fine tuned to an almost automatic response. Players do them without really thinking because they KNOW from past experience that they work. When those things don't port over to other systems, puzzlement confusion and anger take over. It is far easier for most players to believe that the GM is being unfair or that there is something fundamentally wrong with a game system than it is to accept that they've been acting like a bunch of morons, and that thier years of gaming success is mostly due to playing in a rigged game system than makes it hard to fail.
| Quote: |
Regarding the "let's have a fight" thing:
Yeah, kinda had that Problem in my adventure as well... We're playing in the Clone Wars era, and they were supposed to get onto Venator-class Star Destroyer (that was taken over by droids but those droids coudn't really use it because of a lock-down mechanism on board that would lock them out from nearly all systems and shut them down). So what did they do? Get on Board, go STRAIGHT to the Bridge while using the comlink (thus more or less announcing that they're coming) and fight with the bosses there...
The only reason they survived that was because I didn't know what is strong and what not (was the first "real" fight in this System for us, only 2 very small ones before). So only one of them got Wounded, rest nearly unharmed because of bad luck on my side (nearly every third roll was NOT a 1 on the Wild Die -.-).
So yeah, when it comes to fighting, players tend to forget that their characters are not gods and can (easily) die -.- |
It's kinda like this:
1) The players want and expect a fight as this is an action oriented RPG. THat means the general thinking is that any fight is part of the adventure.
2) With D&Ders it get worse. Practically all the "encounters" in D&D are set piece battles. D&D also uses a Challenge Rating (CR) system than is designed to heavily favor the PCs in combat, with most foes being about 25% of the strength of the party. Now this is a good idea in theory, as we don't want to kill off the PCs in a campaign. The problem is the players quickly pick up on how things work and exploit it. Since they know that they have this commanding advantage, they charge recklessness and do tons of stupid stuff that would get them killed quickly in real combat. But, as it is D&D the players get away with it, and even get rewarded with experience for it, thus "proving" that they must be good players and reinforcing the bad behavior.
The whole balanced encounters thing also gets the players thinking that they are entitled to a commanding advantage and they start to expect it. IF/when it isn't there they get mauled and scream foul.
The PC who wanted to loot the dungeon with Ventress on her way, got seriously surprised when she came close to blasting him out of space while he was trying to jump to lightspeed. He was the best pilot in the group with 6D or so, and hadn't had any real troubles dodging in space combat against the run of the milll 4D skill opponents he'd be running into. He spent a Force Point put up a dodge, astrogated, maneuvered, went for a shot, and figured he still had more than enough defense to be unhittable.
Instead he pinged her Jedi hunting radar, and she started spending Fps and peppering his ship with hits to keep the "Jedi" from escaping with her artifact It was not a balanced encounter, and the only reason why he got away was because his ship had a 5D hull and 2D shields, so her 4D lasers weren't likely to do much (as pre-planned by the GM, who knew well than Ventress would eat the PCs alive in a fair fight).
When the PCs escaped the player was puzzled, confused and angry, as he expected that if Ventress was in the adventure, then she must naturally have been balanced to the party and thus the group should have been able to take her. It makes perfect sense in D&D. But this wasn't D&D. I reminded the player than on Clone Wars Ventress can hold her own against Obi-wan and Anakin, and asked the players if they thought that they could. |
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