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Commanding a Capital Ship in Combat
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cynanbloodbane
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the same line o f thinking, what would be the delay for a ship to establish a backup C&C if the bridge gets taken out by one of those ever so dangerous out of control A-wings.
I would assume the size of the ship would cause further delays.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on the ship. Some might already have a back up CIC/Ops center, already manned during times of war/battle, so if the bridge gets nuked, they are already to go. If they need to get it manned however, and say route stuff to it, i could easily see 5 minutes or more.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cynanbloodbane wrote:

I would think, that they are unable to coordinate.
Gunners can cire at things in thier field of fire, but may not be able to determine friend or foe due to lack of continuous sensor data.
Engineering techs would be able to prep the hyperdrive, but unable to plot a course.
Anything that would require data from another section oo the ship would be hindered until a backup C&C could be set up.


So, what we have is not a "coordinate actions" application of command. Instead, the command roll is to establish whether the ship is able to act as a single entity. Essentially, this roll is to determine whether the chain of command has effectively communicated the instructions/goals/objectives, rather than to represent any kind of tactical advantage (which is impossible, anyway, since a ship will have fare more crew than the captain has D in command).

crmcneill wrote:
The Effects of the Command Skill
It is not realistic to assume that an order will not be carried out just because the OIC bungled the order. As such, the Command roll is rolled against the ship's Command Difficulty to generate a modifier which is then applied to the appropriate skill:
    Command Roll > Difficulty by = Bonus
    0-2 = No bonus
    3-5 = +1
    6-8 = +2
    9-11 = +1D
    12-14 = +1D+1
    15-17 = +1D+2
    18+ = +2D
    Add 1 pip to bonus for every additional three points of roll success.

    Command Roll < Difficulty by = Bonus
    1-3 = -1
    4-6 = -2
    7-9 = -1D
    10-12 = -1D+1
    13-15 = -1D+2
    Add 1 pip to penalty for every additional three points of roll failure.
EDIT: So, using the same Nebulon B as above (Moderate Difficulty), the Captain (with a Command of 5D) gives an order, rolling his Command skill for a result of 19. Since 19 beats the base difficulty of 15 by 4 points, the roll generates a +1 bonus which is then applied to the Crew Skill roll to perform the specified action.


This is what we were missing, I think. Now it all makes sense. 8)

Though, the question still remains: is it worse for the captain to fail a roll or to not roll at all (i.e. captain is dead)?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say it would be worse for him to be dead.. Not only do you have the command structure hit, but also a Morale hit. And looking at many shows/films where we see the bridge of a ship (or space ship) if the captain get's killed on the bridge, so too would at least the XO, OOD, and several other key spots.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I'd say it would be worse for him to be dead.. Not only do you have the command structure hit, but also a Morale hit. And looking at many shows/films where we see the bridge of a ship (or space ship) if the captain get's killed on the bridge, so too would at least the XO, OOD, and several other key spots.


Yep. I'd tend to agree. And I think we need a way to express it in-game.

For example, according to the chart given by crmcneill, the commander could botch his roll so badly that the penalty eclipses the crew's skill. On the other hand, if we apply a static penalty for a dead commander, then even if the crew are reduced to 1D, the can at least gamble on the wild die.

I would think that the crew, having an understanding of their ship and their role on it, would know enough to understand when something isn't right. They would likely be trained for specific protocols in the event of the commander being killed or the bridge being captured, etc. So perhaps if the commander fails a roll so miserably, his number 2 steps up and takes charge (replacing the commander's roll with his own for that round or that battle or whatever) and eventually relieving him of command, if necessary (with the help of NCOs/Petty Officers, etc).

Also, even if the command staff were killed, the low-level crew would have some kind of protocol that they default to in such an event. Perhaps the ship suffers a major initiative penalty (maybe even being restricted to act every other round, instead of every round), as well as a penalty on the skill checks that individual crews make, since they are not in concert with the rest of the ships teams.

In the army, we trained two levels up, so that, if the guy above you was killed, you could fill in. If the guy above him was killed too, you could fill in. Now, the incumbent is obviously the more experienced, and for a private to do a squad leader's job would be quite an ordeal, but he would have some clue of what to do, because he is trained in squad leader duties (even if he is immature and inexperienced, he can at least go "by the book" which he knows on a basic level). I would imagine that the ship would run similarly.

Crmcneill, if I may, I would suggest putting a limit on the penalty caused by a bad command roll, or else build into the rule that crew will recognize a crap decision and refuse to follow the orders (we are not strictly talking about Imperial clones/conscripts here, who refuse at their own peril, right?).

And if we are talking about a formal, military chain of command, especially with crews in the thousands, there has got to be someone who can fill in with a similar level of competence as the captain; even if he is lower rank, he very well ought to have some training or experience that is relevant (for example, applying what he knows about commanding smaller crews to the bigger picture).

I do realize that some of the more totalitarian civilizations have military structures that rely on one high ranking person to manage a whole bunch of low ranking people (a lot like lord and serfs, for example). But these command structures are very easy to break and generally fail when put to the test in a protracted fight (a war consisting of successive battles... some battles are won, but the structure does not withstand the greater test of the war).

Anyway, just some things that I was thinking. I'm really liking this discussion and the solutions that are adding a new dimension to combat that I think has been sorely lacking. Makes me want to roll up a brash pilot and launch torpedoes at the bridges of a bunch of star destroyers now! Very Happy
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
It depends on the ship. Some might already have a back up CIC/Ops center, already manned during times of war/battle, so if the bridge gets nuked, they are already to go. If they need to get it manned however, and say route stuff to it, i could easily see 5 minutes or more.


I've been hooked on the Honor Harrington series, and if you are looking for a great series that also provides a good window into the details of commanding a capital ship in space combat, I can't recommend it highly enough.

For the purposes of this conversation, however, the series goes into detail about chain of command, the importance of crew quality (training and experience), as well as the necessity of multiple backups for command and control. Ships have a bridge, auxiliary control (backup bridge), main engineering and damage control central, all of which are capable of operating the ship to varying degrees, as well as a flag bridge in case the ship is serving as a squadron or task force flagship. The officers are trained to step in if their superiors are out of action. For a ship to be left leaderless (i.e. all senior officers and command stations completely out of action) would, IMO, require the ship to be Severely Damaged, at which point it wouldn't be combat effective anyway.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
So, what we have is not a "coordinate actions" application of command. Instead, the command roll is to establish whether the ship is able to act as a single entity. Essentially, this roll is to determine whether the chain of command has effectively communicated the instructions/goals/objectives, rather than to represent any kind of tactical advantage (which is impossible, anyway, since a ship will have fare more crew than the captain has D in command).

Exactly. The current command and coordination RAW do not provide even a semblance of realistic command, as they wouldn't allow a captain to directly command the full crew of his ship. Nor do they differentiate between a good captain and a poor captain. Or a good crew and a poor crew, for that matter.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
For example, according to the chart given by crmcneill, the commander could botch his roll so badly that the penalty eclipses the crew's skill.

That is, indeed, a possibility, and one not unheard of in the annals of both real world and fictional navies.

Don't worry, you haven't seen everything yet. However, if you follow everything I've posted, you've seen pretty much all the pieces, just not in one coherent whole.

Quote:
Crmcneill, if I may, I would suggest putting a limit on the penalty caused by a bad command roll, or else build into the rule that crew will recognize a crap decision and refuse to follow the orders (we are not strictly talking about Imperial clones/conscripts here, who refuse at their own peril, right?)

Technically, we already have a limit; you can't roll lower than 1 on a 6-sided dice. I would think that, in the confusion of a battle, the vast majority of the crew will be focused on their individual tasks, with only the higher ranking officers able to see enough of the big picture to recognize the captain is screwing up.

Quote:
Anyway, just some things that I was thinking. I'm really liking this discussion and the solutions that are adding a new dimension to combat that I think has been sorely lacking. Makes me want to roll up a brash pilot and launch torpedoes at the bridges of a bunch of star destroyers now! Very Happy

That's a big part of my motivation; I've pretty much wrapped my starfighter combat rules, and including rules for capital ships is the next logical step, AFAIAC.
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cynanbloodbane
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
It depends on the ship. Some might already have a back up CIC/Ops center, already manned during times of war/battle, so if the bridge gets nuked, they are already to go. If they need to get it manned however, and say route stuff to it, i could easily see 5 minutes or more.


I've been hooked on the Honor Harrington series, and if you are looking for a great series that also provides a good window into the details of commanding a capital ship in space combat, I can't recommend it highly enough.

For the purposes of this conversation, however, the series goes into detail about chain of command, the importance of crew quality (training and experience), as well as the necessity of multiple backups for command and control. Ships have a bridge, auxiliary control (backup bridge), main engineering and damage control central, all of which are capable of operating the ship to varying degrees, as well as a flag bridge in case the ship is serving as a squadron or task force flagship. The officers are trained to step in if their superiors are out of action. For a ship to be left leaderless (i.e. all senior officers and command stations completely out of action) would, IMO, require the ship to be Severely Damaged, at which point it wouldn't be combat effective anyway.

I agree, military vessels would have redundant C&Cs, but I was just wondering what the lag would be from "Bridge Destroyed" to "Secondary Bridge fully in control" .
My players pulled this of on a Corvette sized Imperial ship recently. I gave them about 5 minutes of game time before the secondary C&C took over and reestablished order.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say that, in combat, the secondary Bridge would be prepped and ready to take over at a moment's notice, as any delay in effective command and control can be deadly in combat.

Of course, this opens up a whole new can of worms regarding relative time with regard to the scale of the combatants. It's similar to scale in that the larger a vessel or organization, the longer it will take to reorganize or shift direction. This has bearing on cross-scale combat (such as starfighter vs. capital ships), and I have some ideas how to represent it. For the purposes of this topic, I'll just say that, IMO, the actual length of a combat round varies based on the scale of the combatants.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know serving on the 2 carriers i did, we had a 2ndary DC Central and a secondary 'bridge' manned when we shifted to battle stations.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I know serving on the 2 carriers i did, we had a 2ndary DC Central and a secondary 'bridge' manned when we shifted to battle stations.

IMO, the simplest way to handle degradation of command and control would be to use the passenger damage penalty I proposed here. The dice penalties would be applied to the CO's Command roll to represent the effects of both system damage and crew losses on the effectiveness of coordinating the ship in combat.

It's also important to remember the circumstances in which this rule will be used; it will almost exclusively be used for PC ship captains or against NPC crewed vessels. For NPC vessels, the Command skill would be less a representation of the NPC captain's individual Command skill than a representation of the overall Command rating of the ship's optimal Crew Skill. The dice penalties above would also represent casualties among the ship's crew, likely including both officers and senior enlisted personnel.

In the case of PC captains, well, I would hope you GMs aren't going around killing them off on a whim. Obviously if the whole ship blows up, there aren't going to be a lot of survivors, but PC characters should come with at least a little script immunity...
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enhancing the Command Roll
There is more to starship combat than successfully conveying orders; the captain must know the proper orders to give. A captain may use his knowledge of tactics, planetary systems, starship piloting, etc, to further boost the effectiveness of his commands. To represent this in game terms, a captain may roll any of several skills to generate a bonus to be applied to his Command skill roll. A few examples include:
    Tactics - Bonus may be applied to Command rolls for any Crew Skill being used in combat, including pre-combat maneuvering. Difficulty is the opposing captain's Tactics or Knowledge roll.

    Planetary Systems - Bonus may be applied to Command rolls for Astrogation and Piloting. Difficulty is as standard for the skill.

    Gunnery, Shields & Sensors - Bonus may be applied to the appropriate skill. Difficulty is at the same level as the task to be performed.

    Note: The captain may make one enhancing roll per Command roll as a free action. Any additional rolls are subject to normal MAPs, or may be spaced out over the course of several rounds.

With this rule, the captain's actual skills are factored in to how good his commands are.

In game terms? Picture the Chimaera, an ISD II, with Grand Admiral Thrawn in Command. All of a sudden, his Tactics: Capital Ships of 11D+1 and Command: Chimaera Crew of 15D+2 go from intellectually noteworthy to terrifying...
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand. What is being rolled, tactics (or other skill) AND command? And is the bonus used based on the chart given earlier?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I don't understand. What is being rolled, tactics (or other skill) AND command? And is the bonus used based on the chart given earlier?

Yes. The Captain rolls Tactics, then gets a +1 bonus to his Command roll for every 3 points of success. The application isn't exactly realistic, but it does allow the captain's "non-combat" skills to factor into his combat decisions.
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