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The B-Wing
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vanir
Jedi


Joined: 11 May 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wedge looked over the new assault starfighter. It was certainly well armed and contained powerful auxiliary systems but looked sluggish and fairly unremarkable in terms of combat performance. Recently appointed Starfighter Wing Commander (General of Starfighters), the final decision rested on his shoulders and the Verpine, whilst certainly enthusiastic could be a little, shall we say curious about the physical and intellectual abilities humans use to pilot starships. Sluissi engineers had already helped produce the new A-Wing interceptor, which was a remarkable craft and to be perfectly honest he didn't feel the need to bring politics into starship combat just so that variously sympathetic species could compete with their technological expertise. If it wasn't of benefit to the Rebel assault force destined to hyperjump into Endor space, he didn't want his pilots dying in it.

"The cockpit looks like a weak point," he said curtly, frowning at the insectoid engineer.

The Verpine was taken aback.
"It's gyrostabilised," he informed the General, "Quite a significant feature I assure you."

Wedge continued his walk-around inspection, slapping the hull and gripping various protrusions and seams, testing them for rigidity. He stepped up the entry ladder and peered over the side, into the pilot interior and ran his hand over the capsule contained within its lightly armoured exterior. The ergonomics were terrible, the controls looked awkward, the readouts poorly aligned.

"Y-Wing cockpits are very well armoured," he remarked, "It's still a very viable assault craft."

The alien engineer cocked his head to one side bemusedly. These poor humans, he thought, make all their minds up before even testing the technologies they require. The Empire, he knew would not be so idealistic. They would slaughter the Y-Wings during the attack phase like so many inadequate space superiority attempts. By the time they sighted their targeting computers on priority locations whole flocks of TIE Interceptors would be cutting them to pieces.

"The gyrostablisation feature can be locked," he replied, "But we certainly don't advise it. Why don't we take them for a test flight?"

Wedge smirked, unconvinced. There were maybe three starfighter pilots in the entire galaxy that could outfly him.
"Okay sure, why not do that."

-----------------------------

The two B-Wings manoeuvred amid the unpredictable asteroids of the Roche Field, Wedge becoming disorientated almost immediately and relying upon years of experience alone to prevent mishap, entirely by gut instinct. It was sickening, difficult, threatening. The craft was locked into the lateral position, with S-foils deployed. It was, for all intents and purposes in normal combat trim, with the gyrostabilisation feature disengaged. Some near misses were avoided purely by angling deflection shields as per his pilot training, further encumbering his efforts.

The Verpine wasn't having nearly so much trouble. He flew it as if the piloting capsule was the only part of the craft worth worrying about and the rest of its spaceframe simply rotated about its axis to avoid near misses. It was quite a trick to keep up.

In truth however the engine compartment lay on the thrust axis of the vessel, and it took some amount of pilot skill to utilise the rotating, outrigger cockpit to best effect. But the feature was there.
It was a moderate exercise, but Wedge was having a difficult time to match his wingman's speed through the field with his own cockpit axis locked in place.

"This is starship combat," the Verpine commented over the radio, "I'm sure you know better than I do how it can be out there, when the asteroids are shooting at you as well."

Wedge felt challenged and decided to compensate, he certainly wasn't about to be schooled by some alien bookworm whose closest enemy encounter was finding a foreign object in his soup bowl.
He dove towards a fast moving chunk of rock and twirled the entire spaceframe like he was tossing a scrunched piece of paper in a windstorm, the manoeuvre was spectacular. Stars swung laterally across the cockpit as the starfighter spun about its axis, Wedge adjusting the inertial dampeners as he did so to give him a feel for vessel's orientation, working hard to visualise the ideal plane of which he wanted to wind up at its close, reyling on skill and instinct to tell him when he was there. He looked out the viewports, looked around, no wingman. The spot where the other B-Wing ought to have been with a very impressed Verpine sitting inside, it wasn't. Inertia and physics however, couldn't have it at very many other locations.

Panicking, Wedge checked his zones and glanced on the sensor display. He really hoped he hadn't killed another Engineer being the brash pilot he was. Nadine was kind of getting annoyed with him over this as it was and it was certainly never his intention.

Suddenly his fire warning alarms blared in the cockpit, emergency systems engaged, the cockpit rotated itself on auto gyrostabilisation, shields, ECM and sensor arrays lit up and Wedge instinctively shoved the controls forward and starboard, tumbling the B-Wing in a reversal, shaking the structure through a Split-S. The Verpine was right on his tail, targeting him.

It had happened like this:
Wedge dove towards the asteroid, banking. The instant his cockpit moved out of the plane of view from his wingman the Verpine set his gyrostabilisation to the fleeing craft. From then on no matter how he manoeuvred his B-Wing, it's cockpit would remain on an upright plane with its quarry, keeping it clearly in the viewport and the weapons fire control system. Wedge barrel rolled, the Verpine barrel rolled but whilst Wedge rolled inside the cockpit with his craft, the Verpine did not. The craft barrel rolled around his cockpit.

So when Wedge pulled out of the maneouvre and checked his zones, the Verpine was finalising a weapons lock.


Two months later the B-Wing formed the primary starfighter assault group at Endor. Losses were minimal. Almost all Y-Wings however, weren't so lucky.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very well written fiction, but it doesn't really prove anything.
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vanir
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still not getting what gyrostabilisation can do for you, huh?

Terrain hugging multimode pulse dopplers use a computer generated gyrostabilisation effect to predict warhead delivery, in for example the F/A-18 series.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanir wrote:
Still not getting what gyrostabilisation can do for you, huh?

Terrain hugging multimode pulse dopplers use a computer generated gyrostabilisation effect to predict warhead delivery, in for example the F/A-18 series.


Gyro-stabilization can do many wonderful things, but a single-axis gyro-stabilization of a ship's cockpit is a silly gimmick that does little more than look cool on camera. You keep using examples that are related to the argument in question solely in the sense that they involve gyroscopes fitted to aircraft, but do not address the center issue of how useless and counterproductive the cockpit on a B-Wing is. On top of the issues already mentioned, operating such a ship requires a whole new set of piloting instincts; piloting an unstabilized craft means that the pilot can read the whole orientation of his craft relative to his surrounding just by the view out the cockpit, and therefore have some insight as to how his craft will perform best in maneuvers. In a B-Wing, the ship's pilot has no idea, and will occasionally put his craft into maneuvers that lock up the stabilization system

Wikipedia wrote:
In particular, the rotating hull system made the B-wing a challenge to master. It also made the ship abnormally delicate; too many sharp turns could cause extreme strain to the spaceframe, and the cockpit rotation system could get stuck in one position. Only a few pilots were qualified to fly the ship before the Battle of Endor, resulting in a smaller number of B-wings present than expected. These difficulties forced the Rebel Alliance to invest in an upgraded Y-wing, rather than an entirely new ship, to fulfill their needs.


A better effect would've been a large starfighter mounting a stabilized turret that stayed locked on target no matter which way the craft itself turned and angled. IMC, I use a TIE counterpart to the B-Wing that uses this tech, and it is very effective.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A better purchase for the Alliance would've been the SoroSuub Preybird, especially since Sullust is a member of the Alliance. Equip a Preybird with ion cannon, and it outperforms the Y-Wing in every category that matters.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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vanir
Jedi


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You and I are flying in formation. You bank right, I bank left. We lose sight of each other. If my cockpit stayed upright while my aircraft banked left, I'd be still watching you whilst you lost sight of me, right?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanir wrote:
You and I are flying in formation. You bank right, I bank left. We lose sight of each other. If my cockpit stayed upright while my aircraft banked left, I'd be still watching you whilst you lost sight of me, right?


If I bank right and you bank left, we are now heading away from each other. Since the cockpit on your B-Wing only tilts side to side relative to the airframe, and not front to back, you can't see me because the massive rear bulkhead of your cockpit blocks your view. To maintain a stabilized view of a given target no matter which direction the ship's airframe maneuvers, the cockpit would have to be stabilized in all three axes, not just the one.

In addition, for a pilot to maintain control of his vessel, it is better if he is in fixed orientation with the angle of the ship itself. A stabilized position would be perfect for a gunner operating independent of the pilot if the ship's guns could be angled to match the gunner's orientation for targeting purposes. A good example of this application in sci-fi is the Gunstar from The Last Starfighter, where the gunner occupied a position at the very nose of the ship, with remote ball turrets on the hull of the ship slaved to the positioning of the gunner. The pilot flew the ship from above and behind the gunner, in a fixed position relative to the ship itself. Far more practical ship design.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
A better purchase for the Alliance would've been the SoroSuub Preybird, especially since Sullust is a member of the Alliance. Equip a Preybird with ion cannon, and it outperforms the Y-Wing in every category that matters.
Let's compare. Stats are from Gry's Starship Stats.
Y-wing (p 23) and Preybird (p )
Cost: 135K vs. 200K
Crew: 1 + 1 gunner (same for both)
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x1 vs. x3
Nav Computer: 10 jumps vs. 5 jumps
Maneuverability: 2D vs. 1D
Space: 7 vs. 8
Hull: 4D vs 4D
Shields: 1D+2 vs 1D
Sensors:
Passive: 20/0D vs 20/0D
Scan: 35/1D vs 40/1D
Search: 40/2D vs 60/2D
Focus: 2/3D vs 3/3D
Weapons:
Laser Cannon damage: 5D vs. 5D
LC Fire Control: 2D vs. 2D+1
2 Protorps vs. 2 Concussion Missiles
Fire Arc: 2 front vs. 1 front, 1 rear
Space Range: 1/3/7
Damage: 9D vs 8D
Ion Cannon: Yes vs. None

The Preybird is superior in speed +1 and sensors; it's laser cannon has +1 firecontrol; and it's concussion missiles have 1 front and 1 rear launcher whereas the Y-wings both fire forward.
The Y-wing is 3 x faster in hyperspace and can make twice as many jumps. It's shields are 67% stronger than the Preybird and it's proton torpedoes do +1D more damage. And of course it already has a turret mounted ion cannon.

It seems like a more economical choice, given the far cheaper cost of the Y-wing would to upgrade the sensors on the Y-wing.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. I must've been looking at the stats for Mazzic's upgraded pair, which has a little more numbers disparity. I recall reading in various places that the Y-Wings were becoming much more maintenance intensive due to their age, but maintenance issues aren't reflected in the stats. IMO, a newer, more expensive starfighter might result in savings down the road for reduced maintenance costs.
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vanir
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay I'm out. I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and guess you don't like the B-Wing very much Very Happy

Kind of partial to the A-Wing myself.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanir wrote:
Okay I'm out. I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and guess you don't like the B-Wing very much :D

Kind of partial to the A-Wing myself.


I like the look of it, and think that it's a great concept, but when i try to find a practical application for that ship, I find that there aren't that many options. The only one I have been able to come up with is my flying turret concept, which no one else seems interested in. Cest la vie.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought the preybirds were too aligned with either pirates or slavers for the rebellion to consider using them.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I always thought the preybirds were too aligned with either pirates or slavers for the rebellion to consider using them.


Originally, they were a short production run by SoroSuub that never got picked up, so the prototypes ended up in the hands of Fringe elements, like Mazzic and the Tarnished Blades pirate group. Tim Zahn used them as Imperial ships in the Hand of Thrawn duology, but personally I would've preferred he used Scimitar Bombers instead.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Hmm. I must've been looking at the stats for Mazzic's upgraded pair...
Not familiar with Mazzic. With one exception, Gry's stats make the Preybird look like it is designed to compete with the Y-wing. The exception is the odd single front and single rear firing missile launchers. That halves the forward firepower of a formation of Preybirds which makes it a faster, but less powerful and less durable ship than the Y-wing. Not very appropriate in the "bomber" role that Y-wings fill. Perhaps the Preybird is intended as a lighter bomber using a specialized space opera version of the Parthian shot, i.e. firing a second missile backwards as it moves away from the target.

Cost wise, the fact that Y-wings (according to the EU) have been produced in mass quantities for years whereas the Preybird is newer and has only had a very limited production run could account for the 33% cheaper price of the Y-wing. Learning curve cost reductions along with quantity production and raw material purchases could equal a 1/3 price reduction.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Not familiar with Mazzic.


Mazzic was the smuggler chief in The Last Command, where the Preybirds were introduced. He had two modified Preybirds; the Raptor and the Skyclaw, and their stats exceed what you listed for a stock Preybird (Space of 9, and Shields of 1D+2).

Quote:
With one exception, Gry's stats make the Preybird look like it is designed to compete with the Y-wing. The exception is the odd single front and single rear firing missile launchers. That halves the forward firepower of a formation of Preybirds which makes it a faster, but less powerful and less durable ship than the Y-wing. Not very appropriate in the "bomber" role that Y-wings fill. Perhaps the Preybird is intended as a lighter bomber using a specialized space opera version of the Parthian shot, i.e. firing a second missile backwards as it moves away from the target.


Considering the original appearance of this craft was as a smuggler ship, the aft firing concussion missile launcher may have been a modification to dissuade pursuers (i.e. the ship is flying escort to Mazzic's yacht, the Distant Rainbow, with a Space of 4, being pursued by an Imperial Customs ship. Rather than turn and attack, the ship can stay in formation with the yacht and fire concussion missiles back at the pursuer without having to turn to engage. That might be why there is a second gunner, so that the pilot doesn't have to shoot over his shoulder...

Quote:
Cost wise, the fact that Y-wings (according to the EU) have been produced in mass quantities for years whereas the Preybird is newer and has only had a very limited production run could account for the 33% cheaper price of the Y-wing. Learning curve cost reductions along with quantity production and raw material purchases could equal a 1/3 price reduction.


I used to have a pretty extensive folder full of starship stats that I'd accumulated or written up over the years (now lost to the evil Darth Hardrivecrash). One of the stats I lost was an upgraded Preybird called the C-Wing that was introduced as a post-Endor Y-Wing replacement. The major differences were:

1). Swapped the concussion missile launchers for two forward firing GP Warhead Launchers.

2). Replaced the gunner with an astromech (which brought the nav computer up to 10 jumps).

3). Put a fixed-forward dual ion cannon under the nose.

4). Used the space saved from the removal of the second crewman (with the associated life support requirements) to upgrade the hyperdrive to x1 and the shields to 2D.

The resulting ship was something my PCs enjoyed quite a bit. The backstory was that SoroSuub had used the original Preybird as a testbed, then abandoned it in favor of the more robust Warbird, which was adopted by the Alliance and renamed the C-Wing.
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