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The B-Wing
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
Personally, I think the rotating cockpit on a B-wing is a useless gimmick generated by a concept artist who had no idea what was helpful and what was hurtful in a dogfight. (Sorry, ILM, but nobody's perfect...)

I don't like to break from canon, but if my player ever runs across B-wings, they will fly vertically and land horizontally, like in the old X-Wing games, (Not because that's how they did it in X-Wing, but for exactly the same reason they did it in X-Wing. Anything else lies somewhere between a major disadvantage in combat, and completely unflyable.)


Its one of those gazillion examples of how you shouldnt put too much effort in trying to work out rules based on 'real life' physics from the movies...

If it looks cool, it works! Nuff' said! Laughing
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, based on our discussions so far, here is what I would do with the B-Wing. There is a statement in the Star Wars Sourcebook that the B-Wing's gyro-system can be used to "sweep its weapons", so I'm going to take that to the next step.

1). Replace the auto-blasters in the cockpit with a combined sensor / fire control system, then pair it with an identical unit on the weapons pod at the end of the end of the main wing. This dual system would replace the fire control mode of the heavy laser cannon. The blasters would be moved to the rear of the cockpit pod and used for anti-starfighter defense in the craft's aft arc.

2). Place both torpedo launchers at the crux of the wing cruciform, rather than having one at the end.

3). Add a laser cannon to the ion cannon at the end of each S-Foil arm, and modify the arm to include the hinged cannon mount used on the A-Wing. This allows the weapons on the S-Foils to swivel and traverse as per my original idea, which accounts for a large portion of the 4D fire control, as the spin/traverse effect allows the ship to angle itself for an optimum shot regardless of whether or not it can maneuver with the target.

4). Add a heavy ion cannon to the heavy laser at the end of the main airfoil. These are fixed forward, and not a part of the full-body turret system, as they are used to engage relatively immobile space transports and small capital ships.

The resulting stats would look something like this:

Craft: Slayn & Korpil B-wing/E Assault Fighter
Affiliation: Rebel Alliance
Era: Rebellion
Type: Heavy Assault Starfighter
Scale: Starfighter
Length: 16.9 meters
Skill: Starfighter Piloting: B-wing
Crew: 2 (can coordinate)
Crew Skill:
Starfighter Piloting 4D+1
Starship Gunnery 4D+2
Starship Shields 3D
Cargo Capacity: 50 kilograms
Consumables: 1 week
Cost: 250,000 (new)
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x2
Nav Computer: Yes (limited to 2 jumps)
Maneuverability: 1D
Space: 7
Atmosphere: 350; 1,000 kmh
Hull: 4D
Shields: 2D
Sensors:
Passive: 30/0D
Scan: 65/1D
Search: 80/2D
Focus: 4/3D+2
Weapons:
1 Heavy Laser Cannon
Fire Arc: Front
Skill: Starship Gunnery
Fire Rate: 1
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 100m-300m/1.2km/2.5km
Damage: 8D
1 Heavy Ion Cannon
Fire Arc: Front
Skill: Starship Gunnery
Fire Rate: 1
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 1-3/7/36
Atmosphere Range: 100m-300m/700m/3.6km
Damage: 7D (ionization)
2 Medium Laser Cannon (Fire-Linked)
Fire Arc: Front
Skill: Starship Gunnery
Fire Control: 4D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 100m-300m/1.2km/2.5km
Damage: 5D
2 Medium Ion Cannon (Fire-Linked)
Fire Arc: Front
Skill: Starship Gunnery
Fire Control: 4D
Space Range: 1-3/7/36
Atmosphere Range: 100m-300m/700m/3.6km
Damage: 4D (ionization)
2 Proton Torpedo Launchers (Fire-Linked)
Fire Arc: Front
Skill: Starship Gunnery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 1/3/7
Atmosphere Range: 50m-100m/300m/700m
Damage: 9D
Ammo: 20 (one magazine feeds both launchers)
1 Dual Blaster Cannon
Fire Arc: Rear
Skill: Starship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 1-5/10/17
Atmosphere Range: 100m-500m/1km/1.7km
Damage: 3D+2

Notes:
-The power demands of the B-Wing's array of energy weaponry dictate that the ship can fire either the Heavy Cannon or the Medium Cannon in any given round, not both, and the gunner must declare which in advance.
-The high Fire Control rating of the Medium Laser and Ion Cannon is dependent on a unique full-body turret design that is only operational when the ship's S-Foils are extended. The cannon can still be fired with the S-Foils in Cruise mode, but Fire Control for both weapons is reduced to 1D.
-The B-Wing's gyro-system fails when it suffers heavy damage. In game terms, when the fighter is heavily damaged, the stabilization system fails on a roll of 1-2. All Fire Control codes are reduced by -1D (-4D for the S-Foil mounted weaponry) and Space falls from 6 to 2 (Atmosphere 225; 650kmh). In addition, all Starship Piloting rolls are reduced by -1D, due to the awkward flight characteristics of the B-Wing when the gyro-system is not functioning.

Capsule:
The B-Wing/E is an attempt to address the weaknesses of the original B-Wing model (specifically its vulnerability to other starfighters) while improving its already formidable anti-ship capabilities. The B-Wing/E features even heavier anti-ship cannon, as well as enhanced light weaponry for dealing with enemy starfighters. The battle-tested gyro-stabilization system has been redesigned to be more durable in combat and less likely to succumb to battle damage. The two-man crew's piloting and gunnery duties overlap, and cooperation is a must for operation of the new and improved B-Wing.

The most notable modification is the full-body turret concept. Combining the B-Wing's gyroscopic stabilizer system with the bearing mounted cannon system from the A-Wing allows the medium cannon mounted on the ship's S-Foils to sweep and cover the entire forward arc, allowing the ship to engage targets in its forward arc even if the ship is not bow-on to the target. Combined with the defensive blaster turret covering the ship's aft, this has greatly increased the B-Wing/E's lethality against enemy starfighters.

EDIT: The A-Wing write-up states that some A-Wing's have been modified so that their cannon swivel all the way aft. If the same technology was applied to this version of the B-Wing, the S-Foil mounted cannon could act as a full turret and I could remove the rear-firing blaster cannon. Alternately, the auto-blasters could be returned to control of the ship's pilot, who would have control of the auto-blasters, the proton torpedoes and the heavy cannon, leaving the S-Foil mounted medium cannon in the hands of a gunner.


Thoughts?
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:10 am; edited 5 times in total
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
Its one of those gazillion examples of how you shouldnt put too much effort in trying to work out rules based on 'real life' physics from the movies...

If it looks cool, it works! Nuff' said! Laughing


Very true. BUT, if it looks cool and you can come up with a practical reason for why it does what it does, even better.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
ZzaphodD wrote:
Its one of those gazillion examples of how you shouldnt put too much effort in trying to work out rules based on 'real life' physics from the movies...

If it looks cool, it works! Nuff' said! Laughing


Very true. BUT, if it looks cool and you can come up with a practical reason for why it does what it does, even better.

My philosophy exactly!
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vanir
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay how about this, put that rotating cockpit in a Spitfire from WW2. What does it do for you?

Not a lot in aerial combat (although I maintain an initiative advantage, wings and fuselage take a lot away from pilot view, even things like bubble canopies were invented trying to help that, navy planes have raisable seats for landing to help with that).

But now you're doing a strafing run and rocket attack against a non-manoeuvring target like a ship. Biggest problem? Keeping the target in pilot view to the point of weapon release means pointing your nose at the ground in front of the target in a high speed dive to within a few hundred metres.
If only you could bank and manoeuvre side to side so as to only have to attempt to crash the plane at the moment of weapon release, the period of sighting stabilisation performed during ingress rather than a long and drawn out glide path towards a crash, fire and pull up just in time.
ie. snapshot weapon release doesn't work in ground attack, you must stabilise your sighting of the target or you'll miss and waste the warhead.

You know what would really help? Some sort of gyroscopic, rotating cockpit. You know, so you can stabilise target sighting during ingress with evasive manoeuvring, compromising yourself only during the moment of weapon release. The plane would be manoeuvring all over the place but the whole time the pilot would be gyroscopically lining up his target as if he was doing a dead straight glidepath.

Pilot view and pilot view.

Really I'm just not seeing any other possible benefit, but am certain this could very well be a realistic benefit. I work with flight sims a lot, most centre around ground attack scenarios. A gyroscopic cockpit could help.

The Norden Bombsight was gyroscopic.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that the B-Wing is designed for attacks on capital ships in space, where there is no ground to speak of. A B-Wing on an attack run can charge right past his target at any angle and not have to worry about hitting the ground.

Plus, the B-Wing's cockpit is only gyroscopically stabilized in one axis. For the ship to be able to maneuver and twist and turn and still maintain a stabilized sight of a target would require it to be stabilized in all three axes, and for the weapons to be capable of angling independently of the ship's hull, like turrets. All the B-Wing can do is spin around the cockpit; it still has to fly a direct approach on the target, which means it is presenting no lateral movement in the enemy's gunsights.

I think ZzaphodD called it. It's a cool effect that ultimately serves no purpose. You can either shrug your shoulders and go with it or (like me) you can invent a practical application.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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vanir
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, well in that case you should rule that attack starfighters targeting specific locations must fly straight and level for a round or two to stabilise their sighting. That would be realistic.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanir wrote:
Sure, well in that case you should rule that attack starfighters targeting specific locations must fly straight and level for a round or two to stabilise their sighting. That would be realistic.


The Prepared skill use rule covers that. Take an extra round to aim and get an extra +1D to your skill roll. The basic gunnery skill would cover taking snapshots.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's only a stupid design that they said 'hey that looks cool'.
It is the absolute dumbest thing I've ever seen with fighters anywhere.
Lets gyrostabilize the cockpit but now lets make the weapons twist and rotate all over the place forcing the weapons targeting system to compensate far more than any other fighter ever made.
Any sane designer would have had the weapons and targeting system gyrostabilzed not the stupid cockpit.
Training time must be longer with it because the pilot needs to be completely retrained in aircraft orientation compared to standard craft.
There is no sane purpose for it, its right next to placing a screen door on a submarine.

Quote:
Okay how about this, put that rotating cockpit in a Spitfire from WW2. What does it do for you?

You get all the pilots killed nothing more as the enemies laugh their butts off.
Weapon orientation will always be off compared to targeting.
Having your target scope stable does absolutely nothing if the weapons themselves are rotating and gyrating around your airfreme
You need a stable weapon platform not one gyrating around like a epileptic monkey.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oddly enough, the B-Wing sounds exactly like something a Verpine would invent, with their tendency to dream up neat new tech and incorporate it into a new starfighter design without thinking the matter all the way through. There was one incident (mentioned in the X-Wing novels, I think), where a Verpine tech rearranged the cockpit layout and screen settings of an X-Wing to be more efficient, completely forgetting that humans have two arms instead of four, count in base ten instead of base twelve and can't see in the UV light spectrum. Oops.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe they made it to assist those who's eyes DO work more in 3 dimentions (iirc the mon cal worked with them in the roche field)..
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vanir
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lead computing gunsights are gyroscopic.

When they introduced them in 1945 they called them the "ace maker gunsight"



I'm adamant a gyroscopic cockpit has to do with this area. Pilot perception.
I'll use the B-wing in this capacity in my game anyway. Our group will creatively find game mechanic benefits through roleplay with it used in this capacity.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanir wrote:
Lead computing gunsights are gyroscopic.

When they introduced them in 1945 they called them the "ace maker gunsight"


A gunsight is a far cry from an entire ship, and those gunsights were three-axis gyroscopes, not one. Considering the maintenance and vulnerability issues the gyro-system introduced, it would've been much more practical to simply have the hull locked into one configuration and install a gyroscopic lead-computing gunsight. And considering how badly unescorted B-Wings get hacked up by Imperial TIE's, it would probably be the Imps calling it "the ace maker", but for entirely different reasons.

Quote:
I'm adamant a gyroscopic cockpit has to do with this area. Pilot perception.


Again, how? No part of the ship's fuselage obstructs the view from the cockpit. If anything, the stabilized cockpit would restrict the view: any other fighter craft could simply roll inverted to see what's beneath them (like a TIE fighter attacking from the blind spot behind and below). A B-Wing, with its cockpit stabilized at one angle, regardless of the alignment of the ship's fuselage, would be unable to roll to perform the same check.

A simpler way to enhance pilot perception would've been to provide the cockpit with viewports in the rear, so that the pilot could scan visually in his aft arc. What he has instead is a nice view of the back of his cockpit. The B-Wing/E alleviates this somewhat by extending the two-man cockpit with the pilot out front, so that he can see further back to either side.

Bottom line, stabilizing the cockpit on a single axis provides no obvious advantages and creates more problems than it solves. The only practical application I can come up with is my full-fuselage turret concept.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Lead computing gunsights are gyroscopic.

When they introduced them in 1945 they called them the "ace maker gunsight"

Which would do absolutely nothing for weapons that are rotating and gyrating around the cockpit themselves.
The weapons would need to have gyrostabilization themselves and one serious targeting computer to compensate.
So any fighter in WW2 that had a design like the B-wing is an very bad analogy.

Quote:
Again, how? No part of the ship's fuselage obstructs the view from the cockpit. If anything, the stabilized cockpit would restrict the view: any other fighter craft could simply roll inverted to see what's beneath them (like a TIE fighter attacking from the blind spot behind and below). A B-Wing, with its cockpit stabilized at one angle, regardless of the alignment of the ship's fuselage, would be unable to roll to perform the same check

Exactly, unless the cockpit was full bubble canopy the pilot has an even more restricted visibility/perception, but it doesn't so the gyrostabilization does nothing but hamper the pilots perception.
Gyrostabilization would be perfect for a weapons pod but is the dumbest thing ever for a cockpit in a spacecraft with inertial compensators.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my experience, Bwings (especially in games) fare a lot better against ties than do Y wings...
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