The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Active vs. Passive Shields
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules -> Active vs. Passive Shields Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:33 pm    Post subject: Active vs. Passive Shields Reply with quote

The recent conversation on the command thread made me recall something that's been in the back of my head for a long time.

I would like to include an ability for an active shield operator to precisely angle the shields (make a starship shield operation roll) to avoid more damage than a passively set shield will do.

Here is why.

(A) On a freighter it gives a group of PCs one more important station or action to take and gives the noncombat oriented PCs a useful space skill to develop.
(B) It gives a ship, especially a PC or important NPC ship, one chance (besides a good piloting roll as a dodge) to stay alive after being hit rather than being turned into sparklies.
(3) It seems in keeping with what we see in a lot of sci-fi where ships take an initial hit or two, even a very powerful hit, but the ship survives and the shield operator or engineer says something like "the shields are down" or "we can't take another hit like that."

One caveat, because of (A) I would like this system to be beneficial only, not to have much of a downside. That way, much like it is better to have a character with 3D gunnery fire the guns than not to fire the guns, I'd like it to be only beneficial (or at least not harmful) if a character with 3D shields tries to angle the shields. If you want to make life harder for the PCs then you can add some risk to balance the advantage.

Option (1): would treat an active shield roll as being like a parry. If the shield operation roll is greater than the to hit roll of the incoming shot, the operator has precisely angled the shields and the ship takes no damage to the hull, but may take some damage to the shields - not quite sure how this should work.

Option (2): same as above, but compare the shield operation roll to the incoming damage. If the shield operation roll is greater than the damage, the operator precisely angled the shields and the target ship takes no damage. As above, may need a mechanism to damage the shields. Possibly each blow that is deflected temporarily reduces the shield strength by -1 PIP.

Option (3): same as either (1) or (2) above, but rather than deflecting all the damage, precisely angling the shields causes the damage to be reduced 1 step, e.g. from heavy damage to light damage or light damage to reduction of shield strength.

Option (4): as (3) above but every 5 points by which the operator exceeds the difficulty reduces the incoming damage by 1 level. So 1-5 over reduce one level, 6-10 over reduce two levels, etc.

It seems like, just like with a melee parry where the parrying item can be broken, there should be some risk of blowing the shield when deflecting a powerful shot, e.g. capital scale turbolaser vs. starfighter scale vessel. But I am not sure how this will work.

Thoughts? Comments?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dislike it. First off, shields have a set rating, if they (actively) flat out allowed you to ignore the damage (your first option) they are making them a lot more potent.

Secondly, if they tried to do so and failed, imo it would make it WORSE (as you have taken all the shield energy and placed it in the wrong spot...
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I dislike it. First off, shields have a set rating, if they (actively) flat out allowed you to ignore the damage (your first option) they are making them a lot more potent.

Secondly, if they tried to do so and failed, imo it would make it WORSE (as you have taken all the shield energy and placed it in the wrong spot...
Your second comment is a corollary of your first comment. So I will only address your second comment. I agree it makes shields with a shield operator a lot more potent.

Why do you see that as a bad thing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fallon Kell
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of the shields having a basic "on" setting and protecting the ship evenly in all arcs. Then a shields roll would be able to shunt 1D from one arc to another, reinforcing where the shields were needed most with energy that would be otherwise unused.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier

Complete Starship Construction System
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
I like the idea of the shields having a basic "on" setting and protecting the ship evenly in all arcs. Then a shields roll would be able to shunt 1D from one arc to another, reinforcing where the shields were needed most with energy that would be otherwise unused.


That's the direction I tend to go as well.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I dislike it. First off, shields have a set rating, if they (actively) flat out allowed you to ignore the damage (your first option) they are making them a lot more potent.

Secondly, if they tried to do so and failed, imo it would make it WORSE (as you have taken all the shield energy and placed it in the wrong spot...
Your second comment is a corollary of your first comment. So I will only address your second comment. I agree it makes shields with a shield operator a lot more potent.

Why do you see that as a bad thing?


Cause like with armor for pcs, shields just adds to protection. NOT gives prior protection.. which it seems this rule would flat out do.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Cause like with armor for pcs, shields just adds to protection. NOT gives prior protection.. which it seems this rule would flat out do.
OK. Thanks for explaining. I want to make sure I am understanding your objection. You are correct, this rule would allow a shield operator to use the shields on a ship to avoid damage either in addition to or prior to the soak roll.

Armor for PCs is exactly like armor for ships. Both are included in the damage soak. For PCs it is STR+Armor and for ships Armor is included in the existing Hull strength. Shields are something other than armor - which is why, according to the RAW, both hull and shields on a capital ship are supposed to receive scale bonuses to absorb damage against lower scale weapons.

Also there is one other key difference. There is a shield operation skill and a shield operator on the ship. There is really no analogous person/skill for character-scale combat - although there are two skills for avoiding damage: dodge and parry. According to the RAW dodge only works for avoiding missiles/projectiles/blasters and parry only works for hand-to-hand attacks. But a number of GMs house rule to allow dodge to be used to avoid hand-to-hand attacks and of course lightsaber combat can be used to allow a Jedi to parry blasters (or in 1E the Sense skill is used). So I would argue there is at least some precedent for character scale combat having more than one skill for avoiding the same kinds of damage.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kemper Boyd
Sub-Lieutenant
Sub-Lieutenant


Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I've always been fond of the idea that shields allow ships to completely avoid damage at some points. Since I use the Star ORE rules for my own campaign, I don't have any D6 houserules for that, but the basic principle would be like this.

Shield have both a general pool of damage they can absorb and a specific treshold for damage that they can absorb in one turn. For example, a single corvette firing at a Star Destroyer can eventually bring the shields down but not for a long time. However, three fighter squadrons firing a barrage of proton torpedos at the same Star Destroyer can for a brief while bring down the shields by overloading them in one arc, allowing a follow-up barrage to hit the ship itself.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not fond of this variant either. What I forsee is that a snug fighter or g\freighter would be able to "bounce" Death Star weaponry with a good enough roll. Add in hot shot pilots and Force Points, and big ships become even less effective.

What I think would be better would be if a good shield roll upped the shield pips a little. Probably not more than double (and that on a really good roll).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And how would a good shield roll up the shields output power??
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
And how would a good shield roll up the shields output power??


It wouldn't, any more than angling the armor on a tank actually changes the actual thickness of the armor on the tank. But it does increase the effectiveness of the protection.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Active vs. Passive Shields Reply with quote

Bren wrote:

Option (1): would treat an active shield roll as being like a parry. If the shield operation roll is greater than the to hit roll of the incoming shot, the operator has precisely angled the shields and the ship takes no damage to the hull, but may take some damage to the shields - not quite sure how this should work.


I really dont like this one. 'Angling' shields in the middle of combat just seems unplausible (yes, even inte the face of the rubber puppet moving a spaceship with its mind... Laughing )
Quote:

Option (2): same as above, but compare the shield operation roll to the incoming damage. If the shield operation roll is greater than the damage, the operator precisely angled the shields and the target ship takes no damage. As above, may need a mechanism to damage the shields. Possibly each blow that is deflected temporarily reduces the shield strength by -1 PIP.

No, same reasons as above.

Quote:

Option (3): same as either (1) or (2) above, but rather than deflecting all the damage, precisely angling the shields causes the damage to be reduced 1 step, e.g. from heavy damage to light damage or light damage to reduction of shield strength.

Seems like an artificial and unintuitive solution, again no.

Quote:

Option (4): as (3) above but every 5 points by which the operator exceeds the difficulty reduces the incoming damage by 1 level. So 1-5 over reduce one level, 6-10 over reduce two levels, etc.

Same again..

Quote:

It seems like, just like with a melee parry where the parrying item can be broken, there should be some risk of blowing the shield when deflecting a powerful shot, e.g. capital scale turbolaser vs. starfighter scale vessel. But I am not sure how this will work.

Thoughts? Comments?

IMO

A shield operator should be able to 'boost' the shields by optimising them and also temporarily transferring energy from other arcs. Optimizing would raise the shield rating slightly, with the risk of damaging them (much like overclocking a computer). Transferring energy should be easier, but with the same risk if done outside a safety parameter (say +1D).

Im also thinking of redoing the way shields are 'lost' and also allow shield operators to bring up lost shields. This would be the hardest thing to do, and probably take a few rounds for starfighter shields and perahaps a minut for a captital ship (we wouldnt want to make Mon Cal shields redundant).
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Bren
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Active vs. Passive Shields Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
I'm not fond of this variant either. What I forsee is that a snug fighter or g\freighter would be able to "bounce" Death Star weaponry with a good enough roll.
I don't forsee that for two reasons: (1) Given the 18D scale difference the Death Star can't hit a starfighter with it's superlaser and (2) Properly scaled and adjusted I think this should be at least as much of a nonissue as a concern that a starfighter could blow up the Death Star (and I don't mean with the old thermal exhaust port shot) by getting a lot of sixes on the wild die. Sure it has a probability > 0 but statistically the odds are extremely small and I would expect the GM would overrule the result in any event.
ZzaphodD wrote:
Bren wrote:
Option (1): would treat an active shield roll as being like a parry. If the shield operation roll is greater than the to hit roll of the incoming shot, the operator has precisely angled the shields and the ship takes no damage to the hull, but may take some damage to the shields - not quite sure how this should work.
I really dont like this one. 'Angling' shields in the middle of combat just seems unplausible (yes, even inte the face of the rubber puppet moving a spaceship with its mind... Laughing )
Well, it doesn't seem any more implausible to me than reaction dodging turbolaser fire. Wink ZzaphodD makes the same objection to option (2) and my comment also applies to that.
Bren wrote:
ZzaphoD wrote:
Option (3): same as either (1) or (2) above, but rather than deflecting all the damage, precisely angling the shields causes the damage to be reduced 1 step, e.g. from heavy damage to light damage or light damage to reduction of shield strength.
Seems like an artificial and unintuitive solution, again no.
I don't understand why this seems artificial or unintuitive, but I guess that may be due to the fact that it was my intuition that came up with the idea. Wink Above comment obviously applies to Z's similar objection to option (4).
ZzaphodD wrote:
A shield operator should be able to 'boost' the shields by optimising them and also temporarily transferring energy from other arcs. Optimizing would raise the shield rating slightly, with the risk of damaging them (much like overclocking a computer). Transferring energy should be easier, but with the same risk if done outside a safety parameter (say +1D).
This seems to be the consensus preference so far. The problems I see with it are the following:
    (1) It is at best only a small increase in shield strength that only helps a ship survive against other ships of roughly the same magnitude of power. It does nothing to help prevent an entire shipload of PCs from being turned into dust in one shot by a more power vessel.
    (2) It seems a finicky solution requiring one or more rolls to at most get an extra +1D or so of shield strength. With some folks wanting to add in a risk of losing all the shields on a bad roll.
    (3) In WEG D6 the starship shields skill seems like a bit of an afterthought. Piloting is by far the single most critical skill since it is currently the only way to avoid taking damage, especially damage that can destroy an entire ship in a single instant. Gunnery is a skill that is still useful even at fairly low skill levels, since there is little to no downside in shooting and missing in spaceship combat. Starship shields on the other hand adds relatively little to the survival of the ship especially compared to piloting and it is not a uniformly beneficial skill like starship gunnery. The popular counterproposal to allow a good roll to add +1D or so of shields with a chance for some type of complication or loss of shields on a bad roll does nothing to address either the low utility compared with piloting and the danger of failure compared with gunnery.

I will have to give this some more thought. However, despite the lack of popular enthusiasm, I still think there is a place for a more effective and balanced shield skill.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Active vs. Passive Shields Reply with quote

Bren wrote:


[list](1) It is at best only a small increase in shield strength that only helps a ship survive against other ships of roughly the same magnitude of power. It does nothing to help prevent an entire shipload of PCs from being turned into dust in one shot by a more power vessel.
(2) It seems a finicky solution requiring one or more rolls to at most get an extra +1D or so of shield strength. With some folks wanting to add in a risk of losing all the shields on a bad roll.
(3) In WEG D6 the starship shields skill seems like a bit of an afterthought. Piloting is by far the single most critical skill since it is currently the only way to avoid taking damage, especially damage that can destroy an entire ship in a single instant. Gunnery is a skill that is still useful even at fairly low skill levels, since there is little to no downside in shooting and missing in spaceship combat. Starship shields on the other hand adds relatively little to the survival of the ship especially compared to piloting and it is not a uniformly beneficial skill like starship gunnery. The popular counterproposal to allow a good roll to add +1D or so of shields with a chance for some type of complication or loss of shields on a bad roll does nothing to address either the low utility compared with piloting and the danger of failure compared with gunnery.

1) Well, if you want shields to take a ISD Turbolaser head on, youre right this does not cut it.
2) Well +1D is quite powerful, given how the damage system works.
3) This might be the case, which is why pilots in general are better at piloting than shield operating. IMO being able to shift Shield die between arcs, Boost Shield ratings and/or even regaining 'blown' shields is very powerful indeed.

Compare a 4D Transport with 2D shields and without them. At 4D only they are in real danger of being damaged by a Laser Cannon, at 4D+2D its extremely resistant against the same weapon.
I had an idea of increasing Shield Ratings and having them soak up damage on their own until they were gone. In this case it would be rather easy to bring down a shield die, perhaps just rolling over half the shield die.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course..


Last edited by ZzaphodD on Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Fallon Kell
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Active vs. Passive Shields Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
(1) It is at best only a small increase in shield strength that only helps a ship survive against other ships of roughly the same magnitude of power. It does nothing to help prevent an entire shipload of PCs from being turned into dust in one shot by a more power vessel.
(2) It seems a finicky solution requiring one or more rolls to at most get an extra +1D or so of shield strength. With some folks wanting to add in a risk of losing all the shields on a bad roll.
(3) In WEG D6 the starship shields skill seems like a bit of an afterthought. Piloting is by far the single most critical skill since it is currently the only way to avoid taking damage, especially damage that can destroy an entire ship in a single instant. Gunnery is a skill that is still useful even at fairly low skill levels, since there is little to no downside in shooting and missing in spaceship combat. Starship shields on the other hand adds relatively little to the survival of the ship especially compared to piloting and it is not a uniformly beneficial skill like starship gunnery. The popular counterproposal to allow a good roll to add +1D or so of shields with a chance for some type of complication or loss of shields on a bad roll does nothing to address either the low utility compared with piloting and the danger of failure compared with gunnery.[/list]
I will have to give this some more thought. However, despite the lack of popular enthusiasm, I still think there is a place for a more effective and balanced shield skill.

(1) It's better than nothing. 1D seems about right, especially considering that in 2E (my favorite rules) it is indicative of a doubling, and the do say "Put your deflectors on double front" in the movie.
(2) But if the shields don't go down on a bad roll, then it's in the same ballpark as gunnery.
(3) This is really just a combination of one and two, which I guess makes sense with you being one of the most likely to bring math to the table! Smile
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier

Complete Starship Construction System
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0