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How does Hyperspace work?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: How does Hyperspace work? Reply with quote

Do you think it's possible for ships to vary their speed, or even "hover" in hyperspace outside of a star system? I know I've seen something similar in Babylon 5, but in the SWU, even the EU treats hyperspace as little more than a connection between point A and point B. I have this visual of SW starfighter carriers hovering in hyperspace, launching HS-capable starfighters that then transition into realspace to strike a target, then jumping back to hyperspace to dock with their mothership.

I'd like to hear the forum's thoughts as to the feasibility of this idea...
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Kemper Boyd
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I remember correctly, ships keep their velocity when entering hyperspace. Something can enter hyperspace without moving in realspace (I think holonet tranceivers do this) but would probably need to exit hyperspace to start moving anywhere.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: How does Hyperspace work? Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Do you think it's possible for ships to vary their speed, or even "hover" in hyperspace outside of a star system?
Not in Star Wars. Well, you did ask what we thought about feasibility. Wink

I like the way jump gates and jump points work in B5, but it just doesn't fit what we have seen of Star Wars. You could mod it to be like B5, but that will change other things. One example, TIE fighters will be able to fly into a jump point along with the SD that formed the jump point - so you won't really need hyperspace capable starfighters since they can just piggy back along with a capital ship. I suppose you could claim that you need a HS generator to transition out of HS, but how exactly do you "hover" and if ships can hover you now need technology to detect ships hovering else systems are impossible to defend and then you would need more Interdictors to drag them out of HS... and you create a whole chain of changes. At that point, why not just switch to playing B5 where Straczynski has already thought out how his HS tech works?

I also like the way jump routes work in C. J. Cherryh's Company Wars and in Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga or Traveller for that matter. Makes it much easier to calculate strategically important systems and travel times. Trying to figure out the strategic importance in Star Wars seems impossible to me or to put it another way - it's all subjective and totally plot and script driven. But once you introduce jump points and lines into Star Wars you don't have the Millenium Falcon or a Jedi in a fighter just heading out and quickly travelling to wherever the movie plot (or Adventure needs them to be next. There's lot's I like about jump points and routes but it just isn't Star Wars to me.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you read the bit about the Hyperspace orbiting scanner in the ISB page 36?
This thing orbits a planet while in hyperspace.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HU.. how does that work then??

As for your idea.. I see hyperspace as accessing a subspace layer.. same speed/direction you had in real space is what you have when you enter it.. BUT as we saw in the films, you SPEED UP fast to enter it.. so no stop and enter..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: How does Hyperspace work? Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Not in Star Wars. Well, you did ask what we thought about feasibility. :wink:


This is true. The problem is that nothing I have seen in the canon or the EU implies that a "hyperspace hover" is impossible.

Quote:
I like the way jump gates and jump points work in B5, but it just doesn't fit what we have seen of Star Wars. You could mod it to be like B5, but that will change other things. One example, TIE fighters will be able to fly into a jump point along with the SD that formed the jump point - so you won't really need hyperspace capable starfighters since they can just piggy back along with a capital ship. I suppose you could claim that you need a HS generator to transition out of HS, but how exactly do you "hover" and if ships can hover you now need technology to detect ships hovering else systems are impossible to defend and then you would need more Interdictors to drag them out of HS... and you create a whole chain of changes. At that point, why not just switch to playing B5 where Straczynski has already thought out how his HS tech works?


I'm not considering adopting B5 to SW in its entirety. It's been well established in the SWU that ships need an active hyperdrive to move in hyperspace, for a variety of reasons, so the idea of jump gates wouldn't work (at least not as they are presented in B5). I definitely wouldn't make it so that non-HS capable TIEs could drop into realspace and jump back out at will, either, as any deployed small craft would need to have an integral hyperdrive at the very least (and most likely have to include some sort of specialized navigation system).

I'm thinking something along the lines of an Interdictor variant, where the gravity well projectors are replaced with a static hyperspace field projector that allows the ship to hover in hyperspace independent of its main hyperdrive. In essence, it would be a mobile hidden base. I have some ideas for how it could be used, but at this point, its all just conjecture.

It also dovetails with some other ideas that I have for a hyperspace assault shuttle; a ship capable not only of tracking another ship through hyperspace, but closing with it and docking without dropping into realspace.

Quote:
I also like the way jump routes work in C. J. Cherryh's Company Wars and in Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga or Traveller for that matter. Makes it much easier to calculate strategically important systems and travel times. Trying to figure out the strategic importance in Star Wars seems impossible to me or to put it another way - it's all subjective and totally plot and script driven. But once you introduce jump points and lines into Star Wars you don't have the Millenium Falcon or a Jedi in a fighter just heading out and quickly travelling to wherever the movie plot (or Adventure needs them to be next. There's lot's I like about jump points and routes but it just isn't Star Wars to me.


I agree. This is more of a theoretical question than anything else.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
HU.. how does that work then??

As for your idea.. I see hyperspace as accessing a subspace layer.. same speed/direction you had in real space is what you have when you enter it.. BUT as we saw in the films, you SPEED UP fast to enter it.. so no stop and enter..


Well, it's not the best example, because it is orbiting the planet at hyperspace velocities.

However, in the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy, there were unmanned probes that could jump into hyperspace without moving. They would drop back out at preset times, take a sensor snapshot, broadcast their findings back to Fleet HQ, receive instructions for when they would drop out of HS again, and then jump back to HS, without any spatial movement.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
However, in the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy, there were unmanned probes that could jump into hyperspace without moving. They would drop back out at preset times, take a sensor snapshot, broadcast their findings back to Fleet HQ, receive instructions for when they would drop out of HS again, and then jump back to HS, without any spatial movement.
That seems to flatly contradict the Rogue Squadron books that explain that your vector and velocity on entering HS is your vector and velocity on exit along with the fact that ships in the films and cartoons (and pretty much every novel) always accelerate prior to entering hyperspace. It seems an obvious inference that objects must accelerate to enter hyperspace. Also, if the ship is just hovering how does it plot and follow a course that avoids mass objects and gravity effects in real space?

Quote:
It's been well established in the SWU that ships need an active hyperdrive to move in hyperspace, for a variety of reasons, so the idea of jump gates wouldn't work
Well we only see ships with an active hyperdrive that accelerate and then enter hyperspace. You want to drop the acceleration requirement but keep the active hyperdrive requirement. Dropping one makes no more nor less sense to me. IIR in TPM R2D2 was on the exterior of the Naboo Ship making repairs when it entered hyperspace. If he was included in the field of effect, perhaps a capital scale ship could generate a field of effect that could include a nearby TIE fighter when entering or leaving hyperspace. I'm not suggesting I want to include that, I'm only suggesting that it seems at least as canonically consistent as hovering in hyperspace.

But if you are sold on your notion, I won't convince you otherwise. The EU is so contradictory I'm not surprised that you found something supportive of your notion that contradicts what we see everywhere else. As usual, just pick and choose what you like from the EU pot.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: How does Hyperspace work? Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
This is true. The problem is that nothing I have seen in the canon or the EU implies that a "hyperspace hover" is impossible.

If nothing says it's impossible, I generally allow it. If no one ever does it, I assume it must be extremely difficult.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
HU.. how does that work then??

As for your idea.. I see hyperspace as accessing a subspace layer.. same speed/direction you had in real space is what you have when you enter it.. BUT as we saw in the films, you SPEED UP fast to enter it.. so no stop and enter..


Well, it's not the best example, because it is orbiting the planet at hyperspace velocities.

However, in the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy, there were unmanned probes that could jump into hyperspace without moving. They would drop back out at preset times, take a sensor snapshot, broadcast their findings back to Fleet HQ, receive instructions for when they would drop out of HS again, and then jump back to HS, without any spatial movement.


You did read the part where the PDV not only renezvous but links with the HOS while still in hyperspace right and if there is alot of info to download or the HOS needs repairs they drop out of hyperspace do what needs to be done then pop back into hyperspace.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
That seems to flatly contradict the Rogue Squadron books that explain that your vector and velocity on entering HS is your vector and velocity on exit along with the fact that ships in the films and cartoons (and pretty much every novel) always accelerate prior to entering hyperspace. It seems an obvious inference that objects must accelerate to enter hyperspace. Also, if the ship is just hovering how does it plot and follow a course that avoids mass objects and gravity effects in real space?


Maybe the distinction is that, for a ship to travel from point a to point b in hyperspace, it needs to orient itself in the proper direction and achieve some sort of real-space velocity to jump. However, if a ship or object merely wishes to jump into hyperspace and remain stationary, all it has to do is jump to hyperspace. If it's just hovering at zero velocity, then it shouldn't need to plot a course to avoid space obstacles, because it isn't going anywhere, like how you don't need to worry about hitting a telephone pole when your car is parked and idling.

Quote:
Well we only see ships with an active hyperdrive that accelerate and then enter hyperspace. You want to drop the acceleration requirement but keep the active hyperdrive requirement. Dropping one makes no more nor less sense to me. IIR in TPM R2D2 was on the exterior of the Naboo Ship making repairs when it entered hyperspace. If he was included in the field of effect, perhaps a capital scale ship could generate a field of effect that could include a nearby TIE fighter when entering or leaving hyperspace. I'm not suggesting I want to include that, I'm only suggesting that it seems at least as canonically consistent as hovering in hyperspace.


The thing that threw me was in the novel Han Solo's Revenge, where Chewbacca was about to go outside the ship while it was in hyperspace to defuse a bomb. It mentioned that there was a field of energy protecting the Falcon from the effects of hyperspace (which basically amount to disintegration of any real-world matter). The way I'm thinking, part of the hyperdrive system is a field generator that protects the ship from said harmful effects. No hyperdrive = no field = can't fly in hyperspace, even with the assistance of a jump gate. If someone did want to introduce jump gate technology, I suppose it would be possible to build a ship with the field but without the drive.

Of course, the author of the Black Fleet Crisis contradicted this one, too, with his Unhappily Ever After treatment of the main villain, but having a lifeboat ejected in hyperspace stay in hyperspace, no matter what...

Quote:
But if you are sold on your notion, I won't convince you otherwise. The EU is so contradictory I'm not surprised that you found something supportive of your notion that contradicts what we see everywhere else. As usual, just pick and choose what you like from the EU pot.


I'm not sold at all; this is just a theoretical at this point. There is certainly enough contradictions in what source material does address the issue that something would need to be ignored either way...
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:

Maybe the distinction is that, for a ship to travel from point a to point b in hyperspace, it needs to orient itself in the proper direction and achieve some sort of real-space velocity to jump. However, if a ship or object merely wishes to jump into hyperspace and remain stationary, all it has to do is jump to hyperspace. If it's just hovering at zero velocity, then it shouldn't need to plot a course to avoid space obstacles, because it isn't going anywhere, like how you don't need to worry about hitting a telephone pole when your car is parked and idling.

Clearly the drivers are better where you live than around here... Razz

I would run a jump so that realspace velocity makes your hyperjump easier to calculate, (but only to support my earlier assumption that no one hovers in hyperspace, even though it's possible, because it's just too dang difficult.)

To use a wildly insufficient metaphor, it's like how a ship with a rudder needs to be moving, relative to the water, to turn. This way you would need to calculate the jump to return to the same coordinates you made the jump from, not somewhere else.

I should point out, however, that this is not one of my carefully crafted theories that balance the actual scientific knowledge and logic with recognized EU material and observable evidence in the movies. This one is quick and dirty and carries no explanations.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The thing that threw me was in the novel Han Solo's Revenge, where Chewbacca was about to go outside the ship while it was in hyperspace to defuse a bomb. It mentioned that there was a field of energy protecting the Falcon from the effects of hyperspace (which basically amount to disintegration of any real-world matter). The way I'm thinking, part of the hyperdrive system is a field generator that protects the ship from said harmful effects. No hyperdrive = no field = can't fly in hyperspace, even with the assistance of a jump gate. If someone did want to introduce jump gate technology, I suppose it would be possible to build a ship with the field but without the drive.

This is contradicted in the rpg in the first edition adventure 'graveyard of alderaan' with it's hypergate that you could walk through the gate into hyperspace and pop out the other gate and again later in an adventure journal(don't remember which one) with the alien race Gree hypergates.
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Azai
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always thought of hyperspace to be a constantly moving thing.

Like for example if you were a Star Destroyer and wanted to "hover" and let TIE fighters out, that it would be impossible for them to come back. As they can never find you in hyper space again.

As the Star Destroyer would not be able to stop at all, it has to always be moving, and if anything falls or leaves it essentially can never get back to that ship or that point in hyperspace ever again.

I think I read somewhere, that you can't really travel(Move up down side to side) in hyperspace more that you just enter a route, but that route doesn't seem to be things other people can follow or use the same "hyperspace" route...

In the sense the actual "tunnel" you used couldn't be used by another ship. Hence why when it says once a ship enters hyperspace it is impossible to track it, only guess which way it might have gone. Because if you could just jump into the "tunnel" or the same route it was taking you'd just line up your ship and hyperspace right after it, and if you were fast enough catch it in hyperspace.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gamer wrote:
This is contradicted in the rpg in the first edition adventure 'graveyard of alderaan' with it's hypergate that you could walk through the gate into hyperspace and pop out the other gate and again later in an adventure journal(don't remember which one) with the alien race Gree hypergates.


Yeah, I think the bottom line is that there is no real concrete description of how hyperspace works, so you basically just get to invent your own.

As far as hyperspace gates, does it specifically say that the beings and objects are in physical contact with hyperspace, or is it like the Webway in Warhammer 40K, where the various tunnels in the warp actually extend the physical realm into the warp and physically divide one from the other?
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