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The Grenade Thread
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
You keep saying tech in SW is much more ahead of us, so it stands to reason, they should have other grenades besides Just that one, that go off on impact..

Hey, you're the one who prefers to stick to the RAW; per pg. 92, "Grenades have several activators: some are contact-based, some are time-based." There's no mention of selectable-fusing grenades, although I'm sure they could exist. The deeper point is that, if they do exist, there needs to be distinction within the stats as to the difference in dealing with a grenade that goes off the second it hits vs one that just lays there on the ground for a second or two. An impact grenade should, at a minimum, have increased Difficulty or penalty to Dodge (with an accompanying penalty / modifier to the Grenade skill to represent the grenadier having to throw it harder).

Considering the possible failings of an impact grenade detonating because it got dropped, I'd keep the "explode on impact" for either grenade launchers or specialty weapons, and give regular grenades a time-adjust knob that allows the grenadier to set for the exact time delay he wants.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also rather like how grenades work in Aliens, where the grenades in the underslung 30mm launchers double as hand grenades. Per the Colonial Marine Technical Manual, the grenades all have a flip-top cap on one end that can be manually opened and twisted to activate a 5-second timer (this can be seen in action in the films), but can also be treated as a contact detonator ("Care must be taken not to strike or depress the nose cap, otherwise the grenade will go off immediately.")

Of course, the manual also describes this as an ad hoc hand grenade, so it's probably better to treat these grenades as launcher ammo primarily, with the secondary option of using as a hand grenade.

Also, the CMTM mentions a potentially useful variant: the Bounding Fragmentation round. Basically its a frag round with a small additional charge that, on impact, launches the grenade ~2 meters into the air where it "airbursts for additional effect against troops in the open or in foxholes without overhead cover."
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps contact grenades in SW< have those same "Do not pull cap off, as falls will detonate them" covers??
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Well, yeah... I thought Blasters (most ranged weapons, really) being undodgeable was the whole point you and I have been wrestling with in other topics. The idea is that certain attacks can be specifically reacted to, but others occur to quickly for unaided human reflexes, and thus characters can't "dodge" them per se, but can move in such a way that makes them more difficult to hit.


Which rules set are we integrating this grenade thing into? Your overall house rule set, or is this meant to be compatible with RAW?

Quote:
I don't want Tactics to become a catch-all for common sense or the basics of how to operate a device. Tactics should be "a smoke grenade would provide useful cover here," while Grenade should be "there's a mild crosswind from my right, so the grenade needs to land to my right-front in order to have the fullest effect."


What's your thought process on the thinking involved with using a smoke grenade?

For example, are we considering whether the thrower knows the exact or approximate locations of all enemy troops in order to know where the smoke grenade would need to land to be useful? If he has not concretely confirmed the physical locations of his enemies, does his grenade skill allow him to reason where they would most likely be, or which possible positions would give an enemy the best field of fire on his approach?

When resources are limited ("I only have one smoke grenade left"), does the grenade skill cover the decision-making mindset which analyzes the enemy's fields of fire/angles of approach and counter-tactics when deciding where to place the smoke (and when)?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Which rules set are we integrating this grenade thing into? Your overall house rule set, or is this meant to be compatible with RAW?

My house rules. I can't really see a way to design a system that covers both, and I'm convinced that nerfing Dodge really does make the game truer to the action we see on screen.

Quote:
What's your thought process on the thinking involved with using a smoke grenade?

For example, are we considering whether the thrower knows the exact or approximate locations of all enemy troops in order to know where the smoke grenade would need to land to be useful? If he has not concretely confirmed the physical locations of his enemies, does his grenade skill allow him to reason where they would most likely be, or which possible positions would give an enemy the best field of fire on his approach?

I see two possible uses; either the grenadier knows there's a shooter there (as in, already has been shot at), or suspects the presence of a shooter (using the Tactics skill rules I'm working on.

Quote:
When resources are limited ("I only have one smoke grenade left"), does the grenade skill cover the decision-making mindset which analyzes the enemy's fields of fire/angles of approach and counter-tactics when deciding where to place the smoke (and when)?

Why get into that sort of minutiae when there's a fight scene to game out? If a smoke grenade generates a 20m cloud of smoke, but the open space that needs crossing is 30 meters, just reduce the overall effective Cover modifier from 4D to 3D. Or if weather rules are written properly, and conditions are favorable, use the grenade to make a smoke plume that spreads the cloud laterally (as part of the Grenade skill).
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I just don't think of it a "minutiae."

There are some things that I would say are "common sense" when it comes to thinking about something like how a smoke grenade would work in a game if it is expected to be some kind of simulation of how a smoke grenade is actually used (that is, "would be useful").

It's kind of like "suppressing fire" or other things we see on TV that, until we've tried to apply them in a real or (fully) imagined scenario, we don't really think about the circumstances which spawned consideration for using smoke.

Once the smoke is deployed, it's effectiveness has more to do with the thrower's understanding of an opponent's perspective and mindset than of his ability to accurately throw a grenade.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, in the case of smoke, it seems to me that tactics is the primary skill to be used; the grenade roll would be an incidental requirement to see whether it lands on target.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The official rules suggest otherwise, though, especially the RoE Accuracy Damage rules. The implication there is that, on some level, whichever Ranged Weapon the character is using also includes a degree of understanding the weaknesses (and weak points) of the target, and where to aim for the greatest effect. I agree that "tactics" should factor into the usage of weapons and other skills in combat, but the RAW suggests that, to some degree, the tactics of using a weapon or device is already somewhat incorporated into the skill itself.

Now, I'm perfectly fine with finding ways to incorporate Knowledge skills into practical applications, but taking it to the point where you have to double up a Tactics roll with every other action you take really is a step too far.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The official rules suggest otherwise, though, especially the RoE Accuracy Damage rules. The implication there is that, on some level, whichever Ranged Weapon the character is using also includes a degree of understanding the weaknesses (and weak points) of the target, and where to aim for the greatest effect. I agree that "tactics" should factor into the usage of weapons and other skills in combat, but the RAW suggests that, to some degree, the tactics of using a weapon or device is already somewhat incorporated into the skill itself.

Now, I'm perfectly fine with finding ways to incorporate Knowledge skills into practical applications, but taking it to the point where you have to double up a Tactics roll with every other action you take really is a step too far.


I get what you mean, I think: you shouldn't have to make a Scholar: Anatomy roll to know that shooting an enemy between the eyes is deadlier than shooting him in the hand.

On the other hand, there are plenty of instances in pop culture scifi wherein aliens invade earth and it takes several encounters before the humans figure out where to target in order to kill/incapacitate.

Another example from real life would be in (lawful) hunting of big game. As a city slicker, myself, I never really thought that "hitting" a deer from 250m would be a problem, and I 7sed to roll my eyes when hunters would brag about dropping a deer from 200-300m... until I realized that in order to ethically kill the deer, it matters what part of the animal you hit.

But at first, I did not know where to target to properly kill a deer, despite being fully capable of being able to place a bullet within less than 1" of wherever I aim at 100m. That is, if I had aimed center of mass on a broad side deer, I would hit center of mass... but that is not the right place to target to achieve the required result.

Anyway, I can see what you're going for.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Anyway, I can see what you're going for.

Likewise, and you make valid points. For something like what you're describing for encountering an unknown alien race, for example, I might temporarily roll back the Accuracy Damage Bonus to a 1/5 ratio instead of 1/3 to better represent a temporary lack of familiarity with the creature in question.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, as far as gas-based grenades are concerned, wind speed an direction is going to be hugely important. At the moment, I'm thinking a two-stage system to determine this, with the Grenade Scatter Diagram from 2R&E used to determine wind direction, then a second chart to determine wind speed. Wind speed, in turn will determine what sort of shape the gas cloud takes, something along the lines of:
    No Wind = Forms a cloud 20 meters in diameter.
    Light Wind Forms a 20 meter cloud that extends in 5 meters in length per round of duration.
    Moderate Wind = Forms a trail 10 meters wide x 10 meters long, plus 10 meters in length for every round of duration.
    Heavy Wing = Forms a trail 5 meters wide x 20 meters long, plus 20 meters in length for every round of duration.
There would need to be a similar chart for using gas grenades indoors to reflect the movement of air by the facility's HVAC system, or wind blowing in from outside (often, high security facilities will be designed for overpressure, in order to keep harmful gases from leaking in).
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:01 am    Post subject: gas-based grenades Reply with quote

It may seem that way, but wind direction and speed aren't actually random. There are many places on Earth where there are trends, and those locations can vary greatly from each other. Time of year and time of day can make a difference too. I'm sure many other planets are like this too. It would at least make more sense for a GM to make a custom chart for each location to reflect the trends.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: gas-based grenades Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
It may seem that way, but wind direction and speed aren't actually random. There are many places on Earth where there are trends, and those locations can vary greatly from each other. Time of year and time of day can make a difference too. I'm sure many other planets are like this too. It would at least make more sense for a GM to make a custom chart for each location to reflect the trends.

Well, yeah, but most GMs aren't going to bother mapping out weather patterns in advance on the off-chance one of their players throws a smoke grenade. The idea for the chart is to roll it once to establish the current weather conditions, and then stick with that until something changes. Plus, you have to factor in how topography can affect wind speed and direction. If you're out in the open, sure, not much is going to change, but if you're in hilly terrain or a city, the wind is going to be funneled in different directions, reduced in speed or even completely absent depending on where you happen to be standing at the moment.

I don't mind if there are modifiers to the chart to make winds stronger or more likely on a planet known for having strong winds, but I think the basic concept of the chart is sound.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, here's a simpler chart from an early edition of Warhammer 40K's Grenade Rules (modified to SWD6 terminology, as needed):
    Roll 1D
    1 = Cloud remains until the end of the current round, then disperses with no further effect.
    2-4 = Cloud remains where it is.
    5 = Cloud diameter shrinks by 10 meters.
    6 = Cloud moves 1D meters in a random direction (determined by Grenade Scatter Diagram).
I'm thinking the results could be juggled so that the movement / dispersion results are further down (EDIT: as in, linked to lower D results), so that the GM could apply a modifier to the roll based on the planet's prevailing weather patterns. Something like so:
    Roll 1D
    1 = Cloud remains until the end of the current round, then disperses with no further effect.
    2 = Cloud diameter shrinks by 10 meters.
    3 = Cloud moves 1D meters in a random direction (determined by Grenade Scatter Diagram).
    4-6 = Cloud remains where it is.
So, on a windy planet, the D6 roll might have a -1 or -2 modifier, which increases the likelihood that the cloud will move or disperse, while on a calmer world, or somewhere indoors, it would have a +1 or +2, representing the more confined and controlled environment keeping the cloud concentrated.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Grenades? Reply with quote

Quote:

As a 10 year later update to this thread, grenades do appear in both Solo and Rogue One, which are both in my personal canon. But even 10 years ago, I never really meant that grenades do not literally exist in my SWU. I see them as very rare in the classic era, meaning that their scarcity in my game will not be viewed as a discontinuity.

So what happened after Rogue One to make them rare? In RO, Vader said that the Senate was informed that Jedha City was destroyed in a mining accident. What was mined there? The magic lightsaber/death star crystals were taken out of the Temple of the Whills. Maybe the main ingredient in grenades was mined under and around Jedha City. Boom. Grenades could have a reason to suddenly become rare, and Imperial stores of them are more rationed out so they are no longer issued to every stormtrooper. Maybe the whole planet of Jedha had the ingredient and was overmined over the millennia, so the ingredient was becoming more rare already. Maybe the Jedha City area, having its holy status, was protected from mining until the Imperial days, and the galaxy would have had years of grenades until Jedha City was destroyed. Maybe Tarkin's overconfidence that there would be no shortage of grenade explosive was a weakness that cost the galaxy grenades being plentiful. For whatever reason, grenades don't appear in the classic films, the era my game takes place.


This strikes me as odd. It's your own head canon in your own game, but I was thinking, just because you don't see them on screen wouldn't necessarily make them rare. That kinda goes hand in hand with the discussion of the alien stereotypes.

Despite the title, 'Star WARS', we rarely see real battles in the classic Star Wars. Sure we have the Hoth attack and the skirmish around the Endor shield generator, but it's generally more like heroic adventures happening with the actual Wars happening as a backdrop.

If we saw more actual warfare battles on screen, my conjecture is that we'd see more hand grenades. Smile

As a tangent, how many grenades do we see used in the Indiana Jones movies? I can't think of any off the top of my head (there's likely one or two though, but surely not many.) Meanwhile the backdrop of 2 of the movies is the run-up to WWII with Nazi soldiers, who we know were issued hand grenades.

As for the Thermal Detonator, (as discussed early in the thread, which I missed first time around)

I personally believe the Thermal Detonator was a stand-in for the hand grenade. For the reasons mentioned early on in this old thread.

CR says frag grenades don't seem fantastic sci-fi enough.

I imagine GL thought the same. If you transplanted the Leia scene in Jabba's palace with a traditional gangster movie scene, having someone pull out a classic WWI pineapple hand grenade and pull the pin while having an argument with Al Capone, you'd get a similar reaction/ scene.

I conjecture that is how the scene was imagined then written and then they just found a star-warsy name and look for what the audience would recognize as a stand in for a hand grenade.

All the super-destructive stuff about TDs were EU creations after the fact.
But it doesn't need to be a massively powerful super weapon. In fact it's a hollywood trope that hand grenades are immensely powerful.

Just some conversational bits on this fascinating thread.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
As for the Thermal Detonator, (as discussed early in the thread, which I missed first time around)

I personally believe the Thermal Detonator was a stand-in for the hand grenade. For the reasons mentioned early on in this old thread.

CR says frag grenades don't seem fantastic sci-fi enough.

I imagine GL thought the same. If you transplanted the Leia scene in Jabba's palace with a traditional gangster movie scene, having someone pull out a classic WWI pineapple hand grenade and pull the pin while having an argument with Al Capone, you'd get a similar reaction/ scene.

I conjecture that is how the scene was imagined then written and then they just found a star-warsy name and look for what the audience would recognize as a stand in for a hand grenade.

All the super-destructive stuff about TDs were EU creations after the fact.
But it doesn't need to be a massively powerful super weapon. In fact it's a hollywood trope that hand grenades are immensely powerful.

I trust your insight about the "thermal detonator" being Lucas' version of a grenade, but the game (part of the EU you referred to) did make thermal detonators massively powerful. I then considered what Luke took out the AT-AT with in TESB was a thermal detonator (that seems too powerful for a mere grenade), and what the Rebel strike team on Endor used to take out the shield generator were also thermal detonators.

My solution to my own deficiency of planning encounters involving grenades was not to change thermal detonators or grenades from what had already been established, but just to reduce grenade appearance frequency in my game. When grenades have rarely appeared, they work like in RAW (except I redesigned the miss chart so that the 1 result is closer to the thrower).

Keeping the EU fluff included honoring the dangerous aspect of thermal detonators accidentally going off when not intended, so most players of Star Wars adventurers feel it is unwise for their PCs to carry a 10D explosive on their persons. Even before my high school grenade bungles, I thought of thermal detonators as a lot more rare than grenades, so they hardly appeared that often anyway. Thermal detonators have usually been for specific missions that required their use as demolitions, not just carried around "just in case" or to be used as a weapon in combat.

And even if GMs adopts your insight and makes "thermal detonators" into the Star Wars version of grenades, it still doesn't resolve my balance problems with "grenades" in the game, no matter what you call them.
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