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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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 Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Azai wrote: | | One thing you have to keep in mind, is a fist can do as much damage as a knife just in a different way. |
Can, but generally won't.
It's simple physics. Weapons typically increase penetrating power (hence serious damage) by concentrating force in a smaller area (dagger/spear/bayonet point and sword/axe edge), by increasing leverage (ax or mace handle), or by increasing mass at point of impact (mace/axe head). Cutting weapons also cause additional trauma and blood loss. Moreover, a weapon is typically harder than flesh or bone so it won't (usually) break under the higher forces, whereas a hand or fingers used as a weapon might.
The fact that a Wookiee using a FP does *more* damage if he drops his weapon (due to damage CAPS) seems a bit of a flaw in the rules and absolutely silly from a real world perspective.
That being said, whether it needs fixing (and how best to fix it) depends a bit on what type of campaign is being played and how many very high strength characters are encountered. I dislike the 1/2 STR method in D6 Space both because it adds an additional calculation to what should be a simple mechanic and it decreases the effective number of STRs that can occur in the game, i.e. 3D, 3D+1, 3D+2, 4D, 4D+1, and 4D+2 STR all have a 2D damage bonus. I do like the fact that lift becomes a very useful skill since it controls damage done when above base. |
Though we are talking in the context of a martial arts skill, which is suggest someone has gone through training to know how to use their fists.
Which in most, I can speak for -all- styles, comes into body training. As in hitting wood, steel, and other hard surfaces with light to medium force over and over. What this does is, in a way, cause light injuries to your fists, and when they heal, they heal stronger. So when you punch someone it is like someone taking a brick to them, and you yourself would not get injured.
I can't speak for physics, I don't have knowledge in that area. What I have knowledge in is Karate Shorin-ryu specifically. My years of training with that, and I am in school for criminal justice. Studying cases of assault, and manslaughter, currently.
I guess I am mostly speaking to the idea of having your fists do 'less' damage then what the PC's STR dice would be. Also ignoring the ability of martial arts skill to increase the damage of a strike, with the thinking that a fist really can't do that much damage.
But I also agree with your mention of the damage cap with some weapons. With naturally stronger races it really doesn't make sense, granted that the weapon is durable. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | One thing you have to keep in mind, is a fist can do as much damage as a knife just in a different way. |
Simply put, you are wrong! (A really small pen knife might be the exception)
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A blade is going to cut, and pierce skin while a unarmed attack is going to cause blunt force trauma. |
Sure, but we are much more resistant to blunt force trauma than to cutting or piercing edges.
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It isn't so much as in the movies where you see people trade blow after blow with each other. Most fights lets less then fifteen seconds, if that long. And there are a lot of cases of people going to court for manslaughter, because the person they punched fell and smashed their head. Resulting in their death. |
You can fall down and smash your head when being stabbed by a knife too, so that isnt really an arguement here. The unrealistic thing about the movies is that they trade good solid hits, blow after blow. IRL its not that easy to land a solid blow on your opponent if both know what they are doing. You would in most cases need a solid head hit that either stun your opponent or shake him enough to finish him off. This means hitting rather small areas from the right angles (or youll just glance off). With a knife you dont need that precision as the blade will cut into the body. Most hits will cause serious damage.
My point has been in this thread that the view of MA combat damage is highly overrated. A kick dealing the same damage as a stab by a vibro-bayonet? Sure, this is space opera and realism is not the first goal, but to me this is just too much beyond the plausible. IMO coming up with a good MA system (especially for striking attacks) is very hard. The balance between being effective in the first place and not more or as effective as weapons is hard to make.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | IMO coming up with a good MA system (especially for striking attacks) is very hard. The balance between being effective in the first place and not more or as effective as weapons is hard to make. |
ZzaphodD I am in total agreement with you. Anything that can be done with a fist or foot by a trained perons can be done better with a weapon by a trained person. The big advantage to unarmed combat is that while a weapon can be confiscated or left at home, you almost always have your fists and feet with you. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | IMO coming up with a good MA system (especially for striking attacks) is very hard. The balance between being effective in the first place and not more or as effective as weapons is hard to make. |
ZzaphodD I am in total agreement with you. Anything that can be done with a fist or foot by a trained perons can be done better with a weapon by a trained person. The big advantage to unarmed combat is that while a weapon can be confiscated or left at home, you almost always have your fists and feet with you. |
And also in surprise situations being able to strike effectively with your body is very effective.
One other problem is also how you rules-wise should represent how you can combine MA with your primary weapon. For example, if you force your opponents weapon wide you can open up for a kick or elbow strike. Looking at the 'Betrayed' trailer you see some excellent cinematic version of this. I had a character that wanted to combine lightsaber combat with MA:s but I couldnt come up with a fun and easy way of representing this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBn0dXmfjqk
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | And also in surprise situations being able to strike effectively with your body is very effective.
One other problem is also how you rules-wise should represent how you can combine MA with your primary weapon. For example, if you force your opponents weapon wide you can open up for a kick or elbow strike. Looking at the 'Betrayed' trailer you see some excellent cinematic version of this. I had a character that wanted to combine lightsaber combat with MA:s but I couldnt come up with a fun and easy way of representing this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBn0dXmfjqk |
Good point on surprise.
On the rest, the force opponent back and knock down options in the Dueling Blades combat variant sort of gets you there. But I agree the system(s) don't address the advantage of two fighters with equal weapon skill one of whom has unarmed skill as well.
Overall, I find it is very difficult to roll out a lightsaber combat and make it interesting. Left to the simple RAW mechanics it quickly results in nuclear-like exchange with rapid use of force points which doubles the difference in skills/abilities which results in the higher skill character winning and killing his opponent. A a result, we tend to run LS combat between dramatic equals in a more dramatic mode and a less die rolling mode. |
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="ZzaphodD"] | Azai wrote: | | One thing you have to keep in mind, is a fist can do as much damage as a knife just in a different way. |
| Quote: | Simply put, you are wrong! (A really small pen knife might be the exception)
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I have to, again, disagree with you. A fist can do as much damage as a blade. A blade can kill someone, a fist can kill someone. If that is the greatest degree of damage we can take, that a fist can do as 'much' damage as a knife.
Now I said it -can- not that it always will. And it will not effect the body, in most casts, as a knife would.
Attacking vitals like the neck, heart, sol plexus, and vulnerable places like underneath the armpit and on the upper inside of the thighs done by someone who is trained can kill. Or cause serious damage. Through blunt trauma and internal injuries.
Now using a blade to hack someone apart, cut off limbs, or stab them threw the chest of course will kill or seriously injury. Even a tiny pen knife can be just as lethal as a longsword if used correctly.
My point is in the end it can all kill, with a vibroblade you get to use its damage plus the PCs strength. In the martial arts skill you get your strength for most of it, with some skills giving you more damage.
And depending on the martial styles or system you use some can be passive bonus, or some can be activated skills. So with the randomness of the wild die I believe the damage that can be caused with unarmed combat, and martial arts is balanced out. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | I have to, again, disagree with you. A fist can do as much damage as a blade. A blade can kill someone, a fist can kill someone. If that is the greatest degree of damage we can take, that a fist can do as 'much' damage as a knife. |
You are mixing up damage with the result of damage.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | I have to, again, disagree with you. A fist can do as much damage as a blade. A blade can kill someone, a fist can kill someone. If that is the greatest degree of damage we can take, that a fist can do as 'much' damage as a knife. |
A capital scale (or death star scale) turbolaser can kill someone. We're not really going to argue that a martial arts fist attack does equivalent damage are we? |
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Azai
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Of course not. Obviously a turbolaser can destroy someone, but they can also destroy starships. A fist can't.
Though if you keep things in character scale, I don't believe that adjusting the damage that someone can do with a fist, or with a martial art skill brings it closer to realism. With the thinking that you need to change how much damage a fist does, because it can do as much damage as a vibro-knife.
Ex. So I have 3D Strength, and I use martial arts. I roll my 3D. Though say I have 3D strength and a vibro-blade and I can do 6D damage. (Either that or the maxim is 5D. I can't really remember because I usually remove those)
Though if I have a martial arts skill and I get to add +2D damage to my roll, so I roll a 5D with my 3D strength and it kills or causes serious damage to a body. I think would be realistic, depending on where the person is struck and how they are struck.
Despite that with a weapon I can do around the same amount of damage.
To make my thought shorter, I think the point I am trying to make is. Just because a fist, with martial arts, can do near or as much damage as a knife. Doesn't mean you should adjust the damage because it is unrealistic. As long as the PC is actually using martial arts against living creatures and not using this strength against barrels, weapons, or what have you.
I don't know if this is one thing we added, or is a rule, but usually with strikes to vitals that gave bonuses to damage that character also had to have knowledge in Alien species (Usually around 4D or higher) to know that species vitals. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | I don't know if this is one thing we added, or is a rule, but usually with strikes to vitals that gave bonuses to damage that character also had to have knowledge in Alien species (Usually around 4D or higher) to know that species vitals. |
I really like this idea. It makes some sense, especially for very alien creatures. I may have to use something like this.
I think the notion that some of us have difficulty with is that the Martial
Arts skill allows as much or more damage than quite a few weapon strikes. This seems highly counter intuitive. Saying that as much force/damage can be done with a fist as with a knife or club seems akin to saying a skilled martial artist should be able to hit a baseball as hard (and as far) as someone with a baseball bat. That seems unlikely in the real world.
While a skilled martial artist may be able to defeat a less skilled armed opponent, it strains credulity to think that a vibroblade that can sever a head or limbs does the same damage as a fist strike. Here I am not saying a fist couldn't kill, but it seems it would be less likely to deal fatal injuries than the vibroblade. But I don't see a simple fix that still allows some type of martial arts skill. |
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Azai
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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I agree using a bat to hit a baseball, is nothing like trying to punch it with your first. Martial arts or not 
Usually what I do, is if the person actually role-plays like someone using martial arts. If they use a move like 'striking vitals' or what have you for +2D to damage. But decide to hit the person's wrist. I will tell them they don't get the bonus.
Hence the bonus was given by striking the vitals and knowing how to strike them most effectively.
And with the alien species, sometimes if it is an exotic alien you may even have to specialize in that alien. Like a lot of medicine and first aid specialization can go. You have to know how that alien body works.
Also it may not lay in the problem with the fist damage, but how much damage vibroblades and knives deal out themselves. And also a huge advantage someone has wielding a weapon is their reach. Also the +10 (Or is it +5?) when fighting someone unarmed.
Granted there is a martial arts skill which moots this bonus though.
One way to 'work around' something too is if these damage bonus can't apply if someone is wearing armor. Wear someone swinging a vibrosword could possible cut through the armor. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Azai wrote: | | I don't know if this is one thing we added, or is a rule, but usually with strikes to vitals that gave bonuses to damage that character also had to have knowledge in Alien species (Usually around 4D or higher) to know that species vitals. |
I really like this idea. It makes some sense, especially for very alien creatures. I may have to use something like this. |
One of the gms i played under at my first gencon had it where for humans targeting aliens, they could only do as much damage as their alien species was. Same went for using first aid.
So if dugal mc doc had 7d first aid, but only 3d+2 alien species, when he is trying to heal that barabel he rolls 3d+2... On a human he gets his full 7d though.
| Bren wrote: |
I think the notion that some of us have difficulty with is that the Martial
Arts skill allows as much or more damage than quite a few weapon strikes. This seems highly counter intuitive. Saying that as much force/damage can be done with a fist as with a knife or club seems akin to saying a skilled martial artist should be able to hit a baseball as hard (and as far) as someone with a baseball bat. That seems unlikely in the real world. |
Almost sounds like then that brawl/m.arts attacks should get capped, not melee weapons.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Almost sounds like then that brawl/m.arts attacks should get capped, not melee weapons. |
I had the same thought at one point in this discussion.  |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | And also in surprise situations being able to strike effectively with your body is very effective.
One other problem is also how you rules-wise should represent how you can combine MA with your primary weapon. For example, if you force your opponents weapon wide you can open up for a kick or elbow strike. Looking at the 'Betrayed' trailer you see some excellent cinematic version of this. I had a character that wanted to combine lightsaber combat with MA:s but I couldnt come up with a fun and easy way of representing this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBn0dXmfjqk |
Good point on surprise.
On the rest, the force opponent back and knock down options in the Dueling Blades combat variant sort of gets you there. But I agree the system(s) don't address the advantage of two fighters with equal weapon skill one of whom has unarmed skill as well.
Overall, I find it is very difficult to roll out a lightsaber combat and make it interesting. Left to the simple RAW mechanics it quickly results in nuclear-like exchange with rapid use of force points which doubles the difference in skills/abilities which results in the higher skill character winning and killing his opponent. A a result, we tend to run LS combat between dramatic equals in a more dramatic mode and a less die rolling mode. |
So far we have only hade Lightsaber vs mundane weapons combat, so the question has been a bit moot. Im developing a version of the Duelling blades system. The main difference is that you choose actions or stances which influence your offensive and/or defensive capabilities (yes, you roll one attack roll and one defence roll in my system). This starts with basic stances (Defensive, Offensive, Full Defence, All-out Attack, etc), but may later be completed with different actions/stances for different lightsaber styles (and also a style-vs-style influence on the combat).
Even if you keep the RAW system in general, just make an attacker beat the defenders score by 5(or 10) to hit him makes the combats less poof-your-dead. If an attacker rolls over the defenders roll but not enought to hit (ex 6 over) then he gains the initiative and recieves a +1D bonus the next round. Duelling blades light kind of...
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Almost sounds like then that brawl/m.arts attacks should get capped, not melee weapons. |
I had the same thought at one point in this discussion. |
Lets look at it.
Someone with Rebel Spec force martial arts, using the Kick Maneuver does Str+2d damage. When they use a Spinning kick it adds another D. So a bounty hunter in the rebellion who learned RSFMA would do 3d+2 (str) +2d (kick) +1d (Spin kick bonus) for 6d+2 damage. 9d+4 damage on a force point. A wookie would do 13D.
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