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Son of Fire Captain
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 554 Location: Rose City Canada
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Bottom line…
Game balance.
We can try to figure out what is more realistic or accurate all day, but I think that the ultimate call is game balance. That’s why in a system like Palladium where they tried to make it more “realistic” they put almost everything combat oriented under PP (PP=Physical Prowess = Dexterity), which led to almost every character and NPC having uber-high PP. Ironically for a game that was supposed to be “realistic” they made idiotic combat rules (which used a D20) like… a role of 1-4 is always a miss and a 20 is always a critical hit. So effectively they are saying… “No matter how inexperienced you are you hit a critical 5% of time, and no matter how good you always miss 20% of the time.” _________________ "My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw |
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Hellcat Grand Moff
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 11921 Location: New England
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Brawling under STR is dumb |
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SaintBryan wrote: | so. someone remind me why Brawling is a strength skill, wheras brawling parry, melee and melee parry are all under dex.
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I can see why brawling is a Strength skill over a Dexterity skill. A brawler can swing their punches and kickes willy-nilly, but it's only the force behind them when they make contact that counts. Brawlers don't have to be all that aglie to just throw their punches or kicks. Training just means their more likely to hit when they throw them. Brawling parry, melee, and melee parry actually require a little agility to them either to block an attack or to be able to quickly bring a swinging or thrusting weapon back to bare quickly either after you hit or after you missed. What I'd actually question being under Strength is the brawling specialization of martial arts, which seems even more dexteritous than things like boxing or street fighting. And boxing seems even more dexteritous than street fighting. |
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RedFox Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 196 Location: El Centro, CA
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Brawling under STR is dumb |
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Hellcat wrote: | SaintBryan wrote: | so. someone remind me why Brawling is a strength skill, wheras brawling parry, melee and melee parry are all under dex.
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I can see why brawling is a Strength skill over a Dexterity skill. A brawler can swing their punches and kickes willy-nilly, but it's only the force behind them when they make contact that counts. Brawlers don't have to be all that aglie to just throw their punches or kicks. Training just means their more likely to hit when they throw them. Brawling parry, melee, and melee parry actually require a little agility to them either to block an attack or to be able to quickly bring a swinging or thrusting weapon back to bare quickly either after you hit or after you missed. What I'd actually question being under Strength is the brawling specialization of martial arts, which seems even more dexteritous than things like boxing or street fighting. And boxing seems even more dexteritous than street fighting. |
The problem with this line of reasoning is what the Skill actually does. Brawling determines your chance to hit, nothing more. That is based more on either Perception or Dexterity. Raw Strength has nothing to do with how accurate you are in hitting someone. Strength is already figured into damage, which is where it belongs.
Of course this means Dexterity is more important for combat characters but really, it should be anyway. And Strength is already insanely important (you resist damage with it!) so there's little reason to "protect" the usefulness of Strength.
And luckily Star Wars puts just as much emphasis on Mechanical for fighting, what with all the piloting / vehicle weapons skills. _________________ Ooo, a droid! Can I fix it?
I have Star Wars stuff! |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14168 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:22 am Post subject: |
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cheshire wrote: | Just as kind of a rule of thumb think about two guys getting ready to fight. Let's say you have a 6'5" 250 lb. guy, all muscle vs. me (a 6'3" 145 lb. twig boy). Who would you put your money on? Assuming that I have no specialized training in martial arts, boxing, etc. if the big guy ever gets ahold of me, I'm pretty well toast. Fortunately, I am a pretty fast guy and I'm hard to get ahold of (enter dexterity).
I'm not saying that the skill is just like real life, but at the same time it's not completely unreasonable. |
This is how most others look at it too. Though over on the holonet, someone did suggest making a Dex based brawl too, to compensate for those 'less strength more and eye co-ordination' fighting styles... EG Aikiedo, jujitst. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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KageRyu Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 1391 Location: Lost in the cracks
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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:00 am Post subject: |
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Brawling also has a lot to do with grapling and wrestling your oponent, which is shear force of strength and overpowerment. As such, it makes sense for it to be strength based. There are a number of official and unofficial rules for a Desterity based martial arts. _________________ "There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
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Darius Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 57 Location: Aucks, New Zealand
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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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I think that the rules kinda make sense with Brawling being a Strength skill. I didnt at first as our group has an Esoomian (7D Strength). But when a character tries to Brawling Parry an attack and fails, you can put it down to the attacker being so strong that he just bats the Parry aside. _________________ oops - i didnt mean to make it go off |
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Sabre Lieutenant
Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 80
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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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I think of brawling as unpracticed no-technique no form arms-flailing feet tripping over themselves furious random beating. Like what you'd see when two people get really angry at each other and whether they've had martial arts training or not simply start swinging and grabbing blindly and bashing anything around. I'm sure everyone has seen that on TV or in real life at some point. I for one have no problem with that being strength based.
I think this is also why they put brawl parry under dexterity. In the above-mentioned 'style' of fighting, there is no coordination involved, only swinging randomly.
Martial arts (under which I'd include any systematic trained unarmed style of fighting) are a totally different story. While strength does play a role in these, that's why you roll strength for damage. To execute techniques requires thought, a read on the situation, and enough coordination to execute the maneuver precisely, or in grappling you'll get pinned or locked and in striking you'll get countered. This is why I treat Martial Arts as a separate skill from brawling, and why I usually have those put under Dexterity. |
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Robert Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 105
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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I have a netbook at home which handles the topic of "fighting with style" in SWD6. In this book, the author introduces the idea of 3 different styles of fighting (be it brawling or martial arts). He calls them hard, soft and circular.
A quote:
"A successful attack by a wing chun practitioner trying to gouge out someone's eyes while sweeping them to the ground looks pretty different than a professional wrestler grabbing someone's knees and yanking, although both are technically throws."
The idea behind this is that hard techniques are best countered with soft, soft ones with circular, and circular with hard techniques. Just like rock-paper-scissors.
In my games martial arts is used as an advanced skill for brawling, and brawling is imho best suited under strength. But why not invent something like a soft and hard skill, which could count under dex and strength and a circular, which is advanced?. And whenever someone fights against his opposite technique, he loses one dice, while the other one gains one? Would that be fair?
P.S.
Palladium had some of the worst combat rules, that´s for sure. But that doesn´t matter when you play a demigod cosmoknight. |
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Argamoth Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 234
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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I treat Brawling as any for of hand-to-hand combat. (Special moves require special skills)
I think Brawling was put under Strength because weak fighters aren't good fighters. A quick fighter might be able to dodge, but won't have the muscle to land a hit. A touch, maybe, but not a hit that can deal some hurt. A fighter can easily deflect blows from a weak person.
Now, if the quick & weak person knew some form of martial arts that was a Dexterity skill, then that would be another matter. |
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Jedi Skyler Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005 Posts: 8440
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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I have to agree (at least sort of) with Argamoth. A style such as Judo, which concentrates on using leverage, would be a good example of a Dexterity-based art. Perhaps Taekwondo as well, as it's a very aerial style. Most Karate, Kung Fu and other similar styles which use more techniques launched and delivered while still on the ground would be good candidates for Strength-based arts. Anything like Brazillian jiu-jitsu, which has a lot of submission and wrestling-type moves would also be Strength-based. |
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Argamoth Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 234
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Point being that unless you have special training, Brawling is based on Strength. |
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Jedi Skyler Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005 Posts: 8440
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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BINGO! 8) |
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Raiz Ensign
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 25
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:25 am Post subject: |
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for Melee & Brawl attacks:
D&D: Attack-STR | Defense-DEX and armor (official rules - stupid)
Alternity: Attack-STR | Defense-With same skill or dodge
Cyberpunk: Attack-DEX | Defense-With same skill
WoD: Attack-DEX | Defense-With same skill or dodge
Cutulhu: Attack-Skill only | Defense-With same skill or dodge
SWd6: Melee-DEX Brawl-STR | Defense-two stupid and unnecessary skills such as Brawling Parry and Melee Parry
Why just not use Brawling for Blocking punches and Melee for parrying melee attacks? Why 2 skills instead of one? No other system I remember uses such a rule. Lightsabre skill can be used to both attack and brawl. The other close combat maneuers need the same by justice.
On the other hand i agree with Melee by DEX and Brawl by STR idea. |
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Krapou Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Mar 2005 Posts: 173 Location: Bordeaux, France
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:24 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Why 2 skills instead of one? No other system I remember uses such a rule | That's why we ruled (in my gaming group) that Brawling and Melee skills could be used for parry (just like Lightsaber).
However we replaced Brawling Parry and Melee Parry with a new skill : Evade.
Basically, this is the same as Dodge, but for Brawling/Melee/Lightsaber attacks (we used that skill because it makes little sense to parry a lighsaber or a racor punch, it's better to avoid such attacks ) |
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Raiz Ensign
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 25
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:40 am Post subject: |
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No need for another skill for those i think. You have seem to be implemented dodge/evade skill in Cyberpunk but in SW dodge can be used for them. Mentality is the same... |
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