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New Scale System
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darklighter79 wrote:
It seems logical as there are some bigger ships with more maneuverability (frigate scale):

That's fair. Maybe a 4D+2...

EDIT: Changed the Maneuverability stats on the Skipray and the Gamma.
Quote:
Rendili StarDrive’s Kiltirin-class (150m) - 3D+1
Lictor-class dungeon ship (764m) - 3D
Prosperity-class Customs Cruiser (300m) - 3D
Warrior-class gunship (190m) - 3D

I seriously question whether a 764m long dungeon ship would be as maneuverable as combat gunships 1/5 its length, and the Prosperity-Class' actual stats seem more appropriate for something in the Corvette size range (100-150 meters).

But I digress.
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TyCaine
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey CRMcNeill

I love what you did with the Capital scale
It never sat right with me that there was such a huge disparity between capital ships from the assault shuttles and blast boats to the Executor star destroyer, to quote the extremes.
So splitting that out into three made perfect sense, along with updating weapons so that destroyer class capital ships had weapons to deal with their own kind, Frigates and also starfighters.

I implemented this in my own game and am very happy with it.

Now though I'm looking at speeder scale, and it suffers the same problem, speeder bikes versus airspeeders, etc.
However, in seeing the addition of swoop scale, allowing speeder bikes to be classified differently than airspeeders, I hadn't seen (or maybe I missed) where the difference in scale for weapons was taken into account.

Do we now need to add swoop scale weapons as well as character scale weapons to some of the speeders?
Or was there some other thought to handle that?
Do you have a vehicle modification list (like with starship) that might speed that transition?

Please, if you can, enlighten me as I really want to separate out the speeder bikes and such, just trying to figure out how much work it would be!

Thanks in advance!

~Ty
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TyCaine wrote:
Hey CRMcNeill

I love what you did with the Capital scale
Quote:
I implemented this in my own game and am very happy with it.

Thanks! It's always nice to hear positive feedback.

Quote:
Now though I'm looking at speeder scale, and it suffers the same problem, speeder bikes versus airspeeders, etc.
However, in seeing the addition of swoop scale, allowing speeder bikes to be classified differently than airspeeders, I hadn't seen (or maybe I missed) where the difference in scale for weapons was taken into account.

Do we now need to add swoop scale weapons as well as character scale weapons to some of the speeders?

Considering how close it is to Speeder and Character, the simple solution there would be to add or subtract 2D from Character or Speeder Scale weapons. For instance, a Character-Scale Medium Repeating Blaster from this list could be made Swoop-Scale by just reducing the Damage to 4D and giving it 2D of Fire Control. Conversely, a Light Laser Cannon from this list that inflicts 4D Damage with 4D Fire Control at Starship-Scale could be reduced to Swoop-Scale at 8D Damage and 0D Fire Control.

Frankly, the only time it's really worth it to gen up Swoop-Scale weapon stats is when I'm writing up stats for a Swoop/Speeder Bike.

Quote:
Do you have a vehicle modification list (like with starship) that might speed that transition?

Afraid not. Most of my conversions and modifications are based on guesswork. The closest I have is the list of weapons I provided in the two links above. If you want to put the effort in on something like that, I'm more than happy to provide input.

Quote:
Please, if you can, enlighten me as I really want to separate out the speeder bikes and such, just trying to figure out how much work it would be!

How do you picture separating them out?

Quote:
Thanks in advance!

~Ty

No problem!
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TyCaine
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for responding CRM!

Quote:
How do you picture separating them out?


I was figuring speeder bikes, swoops, sleds and small skiffs at first, and figuring on a case by case basis from there.

Those are the smallest speeders that really need to be in their own category as far as I'm concerned because they just don't equate to one of the repulsor trucks or airspeeders to my mind.

They're more substantial than a character, but need to be defined separately from speeders in general.

At least in my opinion.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TyCaine wrote:
I was figuring speeder bikes, swoops, sleds and small skiffs at first, and figuring on a case by case basis from there.

Those are the smallest speeders that really need to be in their own category as far as I'm concerned because they just don't equate to one of the repulsor trucks or airspeeders to my mind.

That was my thought, as well. When you look at the performance of modern motorcycles and similar vehicles, there's a clear difference in maneuverability and acceleration, at the cost of fragility, both of which are aspects of different Scales.
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TyCaine
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

That was my thought, as well. When you look at the performance of modern motorcycles and similar vehicles, there's a clear difference in maneuverability and acceleration, at the cost of fragility, both of which are aspects of different Scales.


Exactly my thought, just makes sense.

So with the scale difference in weapons, would you expect some speeder scale vehicles to be carrying swoop scale weapons as well as character scale weapons?

If so, what kinds of vehicles would you think might need to have their ordnance updated?

I can see some not bothering, particularly if they're on the tougher side of things, and they might presume their character scale weapons can also just be used against swoop scale I suppose......
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TyCaine wrote:
So with the scale difference in weapons, would you expect some speeder scale vehicles to be carrying swoop scale weapons as well as character scale weapons?

That's going to be on a case-by-case basis. Using the example weapons from the previous post, the larger and more powerful a weapon is, the better it is to leave it at the higher Scale to help represent the cumbersomeness of heavy weaponry. You could down-scale a Light Laser Cannon to Character-Scale at 10D Damage with -2D Fire Control, but it's simpler to leave it outside of buckets-o'-dice territory, especially since a Light Laser Cannon is going to be used primarily for light anti-vehicle / anti-armor work.

That's what I did here with Blaster Artillery weapons, moving the tripod-mounted Light Laser Cannon up to Speeder-Scale. Due to their bulk, it wouldn't be amiss to move the E-Web and the Riot Cannon up to Swoop-Scale to represent their relative bulk and clumsiness.

Quote:
If so, what kinds of vehicles would you think might need to have their ordnance updated?

I can see some not bothering, particularly if they're on the tougher side of things, and they might presume their character scale weapons can also just be used against swoop scale I suppose......

Again, it's gonna be on a case-by-case basis. If you can gen up a list of vehicles you want to populate Swoop-Scale with, I can give you some more concrete answers.

EDIT: I'm off to bed r/n, so I'll get to it in the AM...
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TyCaine
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I dropped shortly before you did, my brain deciding to let me sleep now that I had part of my answer...

As for case by case, the main things to be converted to Swoop scale for me right now would definitely be the list of Speeder Bikes & Swoops you have there, all I see are already in Swoop scale for yourself, and I wholeheartedly agree.

I'd need to add the Imperial Waveskimmer that someone statted up in the Vehicle Stats Guide, and the Repulsorlift Sled (again which I notice you already have at Swoop scale, and I agree totally).

For Speeders that might want to field Swoop scale weapons (potentially as well as Character scale weapons) I honestly have yet to come up with a viable list.

Most that might have concerns with Swoops have both Speeder scale and Character scale weaponry, so would easily be able to respond with one or the other and have a reasonable chance of defending themselves. Plus, the weaponry most Swoop scale vehicles would have would be hard pressed except on lucky shots to do much as most, at least as RAW, seem pretty light weapons intended for dealing with personnel in lightly defended positions.

I think at most, I'll probably add an extra Character scale weapon here or there, high powered enough it would have bite against Swoop scale vehicles even with the -2D, and call it a day.

I don't think there's much for me to update personally, and yet the difference between Swoop and Speeder is significant enough it'll make a speeder bike rider cautious about doing anything but hit and run attacks against a speeder scale vehicle.

Again, thanks for the scale changes, things make much more sense now and there's much more difference between vehicles that had been otherwise grouped together!

~Ty
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TyCaine wrote:
I'd need to add the Imperial Waveskimmer that someone statted up in the Vehicle Stats Guide

Are you referring to the Walker-Scale Waveskimmer hydrofoil in the Dark Empire Sourcebook, or something else?

Never mind; found it. Makes sense that it would be Swoop-Scale, too. I'd probably swap out the Sonic Cannon for a Light Pulse Laser, ala what we discussed here. Another candidate is the Drogue on pg. 50 of Rules of Engagement. Also, the Infantry Grav-Sled I crossed over from the Hammer's Slammers setting.

Quote:
For Speeders that might want to field Swoop scale weapons (potentially as well as Character scale weapons) I honestly have yet to come up with a viable list.

I did a quick search of my vehicle stats and the only two I can find that I gave Swoop-Scale weapons were the Grenade Launchers on the ULAV and the SpecForce Combat Skiff, as well as some of the Fractalsponge vehicles I did. My reasoning being that, in general, grenade launchers don't have the accuracy of rifles and heavy repeaters. However, grenades being what they are, accuracy isn't as necessary, so long as the grenade gets close enough.

Quote:
Most that might have concerns with Swoops have both Speeder scale and Character scale weaponry, so would easily be able to respond with one or the other and have a reasonable chance of defending themselves. Plus, the weaponry most Swoop scale vehicles would have would be hard pressed except on lucky shots to do much as most, at least as RAW, seem pretty light weapons intended for dealing with personnel in lightly defended positions.

I think at most, I'll probably add an extra Character scale weapon here or there, high powered enough it would have bite against Swoop scale vehicles even with the -2D, and call it a day.

I don't think there's much for me to update personally, and yet the difference between Swoop and Speeder is significant enough it'll make a speeder bike rider cautious about doing anything but hit and run attacks against a speeder scale vehicle.

Works for me. Part of why I stuck with 2D gaps between Scale steps was for this exact reason, so that greater Scale wouldn't be an insurmountable obstacle to smaller weapons damaging larger targets. One possibility that does occur to me for mounting Light Laser Cannon on Swoops is to limit their Rate of Fire, which can be explained away by the swoop's lower overall power budget, which means the cannon takes longer to recharge between shots.

Quote:
Again, thanks for the scale changes, things make much more sense now and there's much more difference between vehicles that had been otherwise grouped together!

~Ty

Glad to be of service. The system is pretty well set as of now. The only change I'd consider making at this point is inserting a fourth Capital Ship Scale Class at +14D, but that's pretty low priority at the moment.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been reviewing this entire thread so have some comments to an older discussion...

CRMcNeill wrote:
Maneuverability and Engines are both interesting loopholes in that, if you can stack enough Lost Moves, the target can be destroyed without ever being more than Lightly Damaged.


This is just one reason I like the expanded damage table idea. I created one that uses 2D fir weighted results and includes the option to reduce the Space -1 as a more likely result than reducing the number of "Moves". I also ignore the concept that aship is destroyed after multiple list moves. The ion driveway be destroyed and the ship immobilized, but the ship should NOT be destroyed. It is like applying the maiming rule to ships.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Maneuverability and Engines are both interesting loopholes in that, if you can stack enough Lost Moves, the target can be destroyed without ever being more than Lightly Damaged.

This is just one reason I like the expanded damage table idea. I created one that uses 2D fir weighted results and includes the option to reduce the Space -1 as a more likely result than reducing the number of "Moves". I also ignore the concept that aship is destroyed after multiple list moves. The ion driveway be destroyed and the ship immobilized, but the ship should NOT be destroyed. It is like applying the maiming rule to ships.

I feel the same way. In my vehicle and spaceship damage systems, I changed the final step in my Lost Speed Levels charts to the drive being destroyed, not the whole vehicle/ship. (I also have an extra step at the beginning of the chart that reduces All-Out to x3, thereby restoring the step lost in the 2e to R&E update.)

However, the worst level being the drive is destroyed may have actually been the true intention of RAW anyway. The Drive repair chart on R&E p.60 says the final Moves Lost is that the drive is destroyed and must be replaced. That is a contradiction in RAW. It doesn't give a cost there, but GG6 does does have drive replacement cost of 35%.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
    Fine -8D (-32)
    Minute -6D (-24)
    Tiny -4D (-16)
    Small -2D (-8)
    Character 0D (+0)
    Swoop +2D (+8)
    Speeder +4D (+16)
    Starship +6D (+24)
    Walker +8D (+32)
    Frigate +10D (+40)
    Destroyer +12D (+48)
    Dreadnought +16D (+64)
    Death Star +24D (+96)
So, the explanations are as follows:
    Fine - Objects less than 1 cm in diameter.

    Minute - Small hand-held objects, such as comlinks, a deck of cards, data chips or hold-out blasters.

    Tiny - Large hand-held objects, such as blaster pistols, data pads, and some tools.

    Small - Larger hand-held or carried objects, such as blaster rifles, laptop-type computers or small storage boxes. Also includes living beings much smaller than humans.

    Swoop - Flitter just wasn't working for me, so I decided to change this class to Swoop, including Speeder Bikes, Swoops and Repulsor-Sleds, all of which will now use the Swoop Operations skill.

    Destroyer - The 4D gap between Frigate and Destroyer wasn't working for me, either. The RAW's +6D split between starfighters and capital ships makes the big ships hard enough to damage as it is, so I decided to move Destroyer back to the RAW's modifier of +12D, putting it 6D above starfighters and 2D above Frigate.

    Dreadnought - Because of some other considerations (particularly a House Rule that applied Scale modifiers to the Difficulty of performing Maneuvers, I decided to put Dreadnought-Class back into play for the really big monster ships, like the Executor.

To clarify, here is the revised list of what-goes-where:

Dreadnought:
-Super Star Destroyer

Destroyer:
-Imperial Star Destroyer
-Victory Star Destroyer
-Torpedo Sphere
-Mon Calamari Cruiser

Frigate:
-Dreadnaught-Class Cruiser
-Alliance Assault Cruiser
-Interdictor
-Strike Cruiser
-Escort Carrier
-Carrack Light Cruiser
-Alliance Bulk Carrier
-Star Galleon
-Nebulon B Frigate
-Lancer-Class Frigate
-Corellian Corvette
-Corellian Gunship
-System Patrol Craft
-Assault Shuttle
-Blastboat
-Luxury Liner
-Container Ship
-Bulk Transport
-Medium Transport

Walker:
-AT-AT
-Juggernaut
-Mobile Command Base
-Chariot Command Speeder
-Hoverscout
-Alliance Freerunner
-Heavy Tracker
-Speeder Truck
-Sail Barge

Starship:
-Light Freighters
-Space Barges
-All starfighter types
-Cloud Cars

Speeder:
-AT-ST
-Landspeeders
-Airspeeders
-Compact Assault Vehicle
-ULAV
-Tramp Shuttle
-Skiff

Swoop:
-Speeder Bikes
-Swoops
-Repulsor Sled

EDIT: Added the Dreadnought-Scale class, as discussed on the following page.

EDIT: Added the option of flat scale values, at a rate of 1D=+4

EDIT: Added this rule to the Scale Chart.


Having read the entire thread now, I have some questions and comments.

I am struggling with the walker over Starfight scale, but I understand the rationale and example from AOTC. I dawned on me the source of my concern - we have lighter walkers under the Speeder scale at +4Dand the next tier of walkers jump up two scale steps to +8D. We are still using the WEG scale terms for familiarity and are building off of it, but it seems to be a crutch because Character, Swoop, Speeder, and Walker scales at least imply land/atmospheric objects while Starship, Frigate, Destroyer, Dreadnought, and Death Star imy space faring objects. There can and should be a mix and match of the land and space scale objects in either setting. There can be Walker scale (referencing the original Walker scale of +4D) starfighters as someone suggested earlier in this post, capital scale land vehicles, etc.

The way to avoid the allusions to the vehicle type would be to remove the vehicle description, but it is so intimately tied to the RAW and player expectations, that I don't think it is a good idea. The new small scales do conform my suggestion because they are new and can do this, but following the WEG convention, these new scales would be something like Critter, Rodent, and Invertibrate. As the problem with the originals are descriptions, you could have things you would call critters, rodents, and invertebrates that do not fit with the scales (think of the Space Slug in ESB).

So, the bottom line is I am going to give the new scales a try as they stand and see how they work.


Last edited by Dr. Bidlo on Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I cannot let go of the concerns with the traditional naming convention of the scales, so JUST FOR FUN, here goes:

Traditional Restyled Scale Categories
Character 0D
Speeder Bike +2D (+8)
Land Speeder +4D (+16)
Starfighter +6D (+24)
Freighter +8D (+32)
Frigate +10D (+40)
Destroyer +12D (+48)
Dreadnought +16D (+64)
Death Star +24D (+96)

OR

Scale Categories by Vehicle Size
Character 0D
Ultra Light Vehicle (ULV) +2D (+8)
Light Vehicle (LV) +4D (+16)
Medium Vehicle +6D (+24)
Heavy Vehicle +8D (+32)
Frigate +10D (+40)
Destroyer +12D (+48)
Dreadnought +16D (+64)
Satellite +20D (+80) - New scale added by me
Planetary +24D (+96)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I am struggling with the walker over Starfight scale, but I understand the rationale and example from AOTC. I dawned on me the source of my concern - we have lighter walkers under the Speeder scale at +4Dand the next tier of walkers jump up two scale steps to +8D. We are still using the WEG scale terms for famuarity and are building off of it, but it seems to be a crutch because Character, Swoop, Speeder, and Walker scales at least imply land/atmospheric objects while Starship, Frigate, Destroyer, Dreadnought, and Death Star imy space faring objects. There can and should be a mix and match of the land and space scale objects in either setting. There can be Walker scale (referencing the original Walker scale of +4D) starfighters as someone suggested earlier in this post, capital scale land vehicles, etc.

Sure, there could be, but by going with 2D steps between the scale levels, even skipping a level like the 4D difference between Speeder and Walker or Starfighter and Frigate allows for enough overlap that it isn't really an issue. Give a Walker-scale vehicle a Body of 1D and it's vulnerable to heavier Speeder-Scale weapons. Plus, this is where the Accuracy Damage rules from RoE come into play. Because the Walker-Scale vehicle is 4D larger than the Speeder-Scale weapon, the weapon gets a +4D bonus to Gunnery, which in turn translates into an additional ~4-5 points of damage. This nicely represents a small attacker being able to make precision attacks against specific components / systems of a larger target, and thus still have a chance of inflicting damage. Obviously, some vehicles will just be too tough for it to matter, but that fits with what we see on screen, too.

And remember, Scale is a part of a larger whole; yes, a light freighter is larger than a starfighter, but it doesn't have to be larger in scale on paper to be effectively larger in scale in gameplay. This is represented by lower top speeds, lower maneuverability, etc.
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Dr. Bidlo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Dr. Bidlo wrote:
I am struggling with the walker over Starfight scale, but I understand the rationale and example from AOTC. I dawned on me the source of my concern - we have lighter walkers under the Speeder scale at +4Dand the next tier of walkers jump up two scale steps to +8D. We are still using the WEG scale terms for famuarity and are building off of it, but it seems to be a crutch because Character, Swoop, Speeder, and Walker scales at least imply land/atmospheric objects while Starship, Frigate, Destroyer, Dreadnought, and Death Star imy space faring objects. There can and should be a mix and match of the land and space scale objects in either setting. There can be Walker scale (referencing the original Walker scale of +4D) starfighters as someone suggested earlier in this post, capital scale land vehicles, etc.

Sure, there could be, but by going with 2D steps between the scale levels, even skipping a level like the 4D difference between Speeder and Walker or Starfighter and Frigate allows for enough overlap that it isn't really an issue. Give a Walker-scale vehicle a Body of 1D and it's vulnerable to heavier Speeder-Scale weapons. Plus, this is where the Accuracy Damage rules from RoE come into play. Because the Walker-Scale vehicle is 4D larger than the Speeder-Scale weapon, the weapon gets a +4D bonus to Gunnery, which in turn translates into an additional ~4-5 points of damage. This nicely represents a small attacker being able to make precision attacks against specific components / systems of a larger target, and thus still have a chance of inflicting damage. Obviously, some vehicles will just be too tough for it to matter, but that fits with what we see on screen, too.

And remember, Scale is a part of a larger whole; yes, a light freighter is larger than a starfighter, but it doesn't have to be larger in scale on paper to be effectively larger in scale in gameplay. This is represented by lower top speeds, lower maneuverability, etc.


I understand the issues I think. My suggestion was solely cosmetic by using the scale system you settled upon, but merely changing the names of the scales. I realize it might be too much of a jump from the RAW, but it could be helpful to provide scale in more general terms rather than create confusion by naming the scales based on method of locomotion/a specific object that defines the entire scale (here's looking at you, Death Star!)
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