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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:54 am Post subject: |
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I've been leaning in the direction of using the Warhammer 40K material to populate Unknown Space. With the hyperspace anomalies making exploration and travel in the Unknown Regions so difficult, it would fit quite nicely with the development of the Navigators. I've considered a few changes to make it fit:
1). The Imperial Military (Ground and Space Forces) are now the Demiurg (Dwarves), as the stylized look of most Imperial Navy vessels would fit with the artistic tendencies one would tend to ascribe to dwarven artisans. The Demiurg would be highly conservative, and would retain much of the organization of the Ecclesiarchy and Adeptus Terra, especially the Adeptus Mechanicus.
2). Split the Tau Merchant Fleet from the Tau Military Fleet and make the Merchant Fleet vessels the Chiss Navy.
3). The Nicassar Tau sub-race would be the Halflings / Ratlings
4). Chaos are now the Sith Empire of the Unknown Regions. The daemons would be the result of Sith Alchemy experimentation.
5). The Eldar are unchanged, but the back story of the catastrophe that leveled their homeworlds would need to be changed. Perhaps have the remains of their homeworld be the location of the Sith Empire, because the apocalypse left their worlds shrouded in the Dark Side
6). Necrons would be unchanged, but their harvesting activities are for entechment (which the Ssi-Ruuk scavenged from a Necron wreck) to power their droid forms
7). Demiurg ships would be a new race, with an almost mystical relationship with technology, able to make technology to perform near magical feats. I was thinking some cross with Gnomes and Jokaero, making these creatures more willing to interact with other species, and make them more like monkeys instead of orangutans.
8). Orks and Tyranids would be left unchanged, but reduced in scope, so that they are more of a local problem than a galaxy-wide threat.
9). The Webway would be altered to something more along the lines of the Stargate Gate Network, rather than accessing an alternate dimension (It would simplify things), and the Eldar and Necrons would use jump technology (transitioning instantly from one point to another) while the other races would use hyperdrives, except for the Tyranids, who never bother with it in the first place.
10). Ogryns and Beastmen would exist as primitive races and recruited as shock troops for the Demiurg and the Sith, respectively.
11). The Rakata and the Celestials could fit nicely with the backstory of several of the older races, like the Orks and the Necrons, as subject races begun as warrior fodder. The Eldar origins could be linked to the Celestials, as a countering warrior species to combat the Rakata's subject races.
12). Space Marines would be split off to form an elite experimental unit under the Empire, drawn from the stormtrooper corps and upgraded with bioware implants and power armor to create a cutting-edge unit of shock troops.
Thoughts?
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:06 am; edited 3 times in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Esoomian wrote: | | Why divert from cannon, the genestealer seed is quite a nice little mechanic. It's a shame they've moved away from genestealer cults. |
Genestealers are cool, but their infiltration takes forever. Its better suited as a long term threat. |
In the original WH40K, genestealers were basically a clone of the Alien Xenomorphs, with the "kiss" implanting an egg that hatched and chewed its way out a few hours later as a genestealer with some of the traits of the host creature. Later additions altered it to the current standard of the multi-generational infiltration.
A possible alternative to speed things up would be to have the kiss implant some sort of mind-controlling parasite that makes the victim an extension of the genestealer hive-mind. This would include the cult-like element while also dramatically speeding up the process, which would definitely add a lot more urgency to any encounter scenario.
The genestealer hybrids could still be introduced in a more long-term scenario by having the parasite organisms use their host bodies to reproduce with each other to produce hybrid offspring, like the canon rules for genestealers. You could even go an extra level of creepy by having the genestealers use their female thralls as hosts to birth hybrids, if you're running a campaign that is that dark. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | I actually just used some of the concepts, not converting everything. I switched some equipment to suit the SW universe. My 'Terminators' had Stormblasters instead of Stormbolters. Basically the same function, automatic short range weaponry, but with blaster tech instead.
Regarding Space Marines (Which should be some kind of special Imperial project, not rank and file troopers), just look at the different stages of Dark Trooper (a concept I personally dont use btw), its comparable. My 'terminators' were similar. Crack elite troopers with cybernetic implants to operate the heavy power suit. They were normally only availible to the top elite of the Inquisition for Jedi Hunting. Actually, in my campaign the players only fought them once or twice, while being hunted by Tremaine. |
Actually, the technical term for most of the Marine upgrades would be bioware, as all of the Astartes implants are actually vat grown, and must be implanted while the subject's body is still maturing. From the descriptions, all the bioware implants would be relatively easy to convert to D6 stats. The only one I would change up would be the Black Carapace. I envision a subdermal implant on the spine and wrists that allows the trooper to interface with his power armor (the spinal interface interprets the body's movements, while the wrist implants would connect the nervous system in the wearer's hands to a similar set of sensors in the armor's gloves). Rather than Black Carapace, I would just call it Interpace (A word play on Carapace and Interface). In game terms, an Interpace connection would eliminate any Dexterity Penalty, as well as any need for a Power Armor Operations roll, as the suit is perfectly linked to the wearer's nervous system.
This would be ideal for an Imperial Supersoldier program, especially with the clones as a base template. Their accelerated growth rate would mean that the troopers would be ready for deployment much more quickly then their WH40K equivalent, and the uniformity of their DNA would greatly reduce the likelihood of rejection.
Perhaps the scope of the bioware implants could be expanded as well. Maybe a gland could be developed that activated Force sensitivity in a subject, so that the Space Marine Librarians could be introduced. After all, I'm sure Palpatine would've very much want to have a corps of elite, completely loyal Force-sensitive warriors at his command. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Esoomian wrote: | | Why divert from cannon, the genestealer seed is quite a nice little mechanic. It's a shame they've moved away from genestealer cults. |
Genestealers are cool, but their infiltration takes forever. Its better suited as a long term threat. |
In the original WH40K, genestealers were basically a clone of the Alien Xenomorphs, with the "kiss" implanting an egg that hatched and chewed its way out a few hours later as a genestealer with some of the traits of the host creature. Later additions altered it to the current standard of the multi-generational infiltration.
A possible alternative to speed things up would be to have the kiss implant some sort of mind-controlling parasite that makes the victim an extension of the genestealer hive-mind. This would include the cult-like element while also dramatically speeding up the process, which would definitely add a lot more urgency to any encounter scenario.
The genestealer hybrids could still be introduced in a more long-term scenario by having the parasite organisms use their host bodies to reproduce with each other to produce hybrid offspring, like the canon rules for genestealers. You could even go an extra level of creepy by having the genestealers use their female thralls as hosts to birth hybrids, if you're running a campaign that is that dark. |
I have the Rogue Trader book and there the genestealer generation idea is already in place.. No matter. I use the Stealer idea where the 'egg' (ovipositor or whatever) also puts the infected victim under the hive mind in 1d6 hours. As a 'nid' takeover creature I use a sort of Centipede that attaches to the spine from the neck down and 'possesses' the victim. These usually rest in the hundreds in large pods, which burst when they sense people nearby.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | [Actually, the technical term for most of the Marine upgrades would be bioware, as all of the Astartes implants are actually vat grown, and must be implanted while the subject's body is still maturing. From the descriptions, all the bioware implants would be relatively easy to convert to D6 stats. The only one I would change up would be the Black Carapace. I envision a subdermal implant on the spine and wrists that allows the trooper to interface with his power armor (the spinal interface interprets the body's movements, while the wrist implants would connect the nervous system in the wearer's hands to a similar set of sensors in the armor's gloves). Rather than Black Carapace, I would just call it Interpace (A word play on Carapace and Interface). In game terms, an Interpace connection would eliminate any Dexterity Penalty, as well as any need for a Power Armor Operations roll, as the suit is perfectly linked to the wearer's nervous system.
This would be ideal for an Imperial Supersoldier program, especially with the clones as a base template. Their accelerated growth rate would mean that the troopers would be ready for deployment much more quickly then their WH40K equivalent, and the uniformity of their DNA would greatly reduce the likelihood of rejection.
Perhaps the scope of the bioware implants could be expanded as well. Maybe a gland could be developed that activated Force sensitivity in a subject, so that the Space Marine Librarians could be introduced. After all, I'm sure Palpatine would've very much want to have a corps of elite, completely loyal Force-sensitive warriors at his command. |
I have more or less dropped the 'normal' marine idea, and just kept the Stormtrooper Assault Troopers (Terminators). As biowear is such a scetchy concept in the SW universe I have settled for cybernetically enhanced troopers. They are, on their own, not as powerful as 40K marines either. However, they do have cybernetically enhanced Dex and Str and also a cybernetic interface to handle their extremely heavy armour.
As for candidates, they come from the top elite Stormtrooper corps which are given cybernetic enhancements, additional indoctrination and training.
When it comes to 'Librarians' Im still a bit undecided. Their roles are very much filled by the inquisition. Better just give a combat oriented Inquisitor a Assault Armour and a neural interface. I have a perfect candidate, a NPC based on Darth Malgus image. Just add a Assault Armour and you have a Librarian..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | I have more or less dropped the 'normal' marine idea, and just kept the Stormtrooper Assault Troopers (Terminators). As biowear is such a scetchy concept in the SW universe I have settled for cybernetically enhanced troopers. They are, on their own, not as powerful as 40K marines either. However, they do have cybernetically enhanced Dex and Str and also a cybernetic interface to handle their extremely heavy armour.
As for candidates, they come from the top elite Stormtrooper corps which are given cybernetic enhancements, additional indoctrination and training. |
I suppose it's a matter of personal opinion. After all, bioware would have advantages long term over cybernetics. For starters, bioware probably wouldn't have the same issues with accumulation of DSPs, since the implant is made of living tissue as opposed to inorganic material. Also, because the implants are integrated into an organic system, they would tend to be more self-reliant, and not require the regular maintenance one might expect from cybernetics. The trade-off might be that bioware is a lot more expensive than standard cybernetics, but then, the Empire wouldn't just be handing out bioware implants like candy. These would be expensive, purpose grown implants being given to troopers with proven skills and loyalty.
Another thing to remember is that, based on the original stats, Space Marines were enhanced humans, not the superhuman gods of war portrayed in the Warhammer novels. If you look at the original Space Marine stats, they were 1 or 2 points above normal humans in critical areas, but they weren't all powerful.
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | When it comes to 'Librarians' Im still a bit undecided. Their roles are very much filled by the inquisition. Better just give a combat oriented Inquisitor a Assault Armour and a neural interface. I have a perfect candidate, a NPC based on Darth Malgus image. Just add a Assault Armour and you have a Librarian.. |
There are actually already some examples of artificially induced Force sensitivity in the SWU, specifically the Reborn and the Shadowtroopers, so this wouldn't be too much of a stretch. After all, who knows how many different top secret research projects Palpatine had going, all pursuing different possible leads. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | I have the Rogue Trader book and there the genestealer generation idea is already in place.. No matter. I use the Stealer idea where the 'egg' (ovipositor or whatever) also puts the infected victim under the hive mind in 1d6 hours. As a 'nid' takeover creature I use a sort of Centipede that attaches to the spine from the neck down and 'possesses' the victim. These usually rest in the hundreds in large pods, which burst when they sense people nearby. |
Nasty! Is that separate from the Genestealers? I could see it being a nasty surprise that Tyranid Lictor infiltration biots might use as part of their pre-invasion activities. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| BTW, if you are looking for detailed, up-to-date descriptions of the Warhammer 40K universe, along with equipment and such, Games Workshop has released WH40K RPGs: Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy and Death Watch, covering Rogue Traders, the Inquisition and Space Marines respectively. Death Watch would be particularly useful for converting Space Marines to D6, as it lists all the bioware implants that Space Marines receive, along with the manner in which they contribute to the Marine's enhanced stats. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Ah, but a 40K statline of 4 is more or less superhuman. Remember that 3m Tyranids have Str 4 or 5 depending on what edition you are looking at. Orks, mentioned to weigh twice the weight of a human only has Toughness 4 as an advantage from this bulk of muscle and bone. 3m massive Ogryns (Ogres) almost being equally wide as tall have Strenght and Toughness 5.
A SM has Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strenght, Toughness and Initiative 4. A ordinary warrior trained human (ie soldier) has 3 in all those stats.
An ordinary soldier hitting a SM has a 11% chance of wounding the SM
The SM has about 50% of doing the same. It will also attack first and fail morale less often when suffering defeat. Even a company commander, the highest HQ troop in a (human) Imperial Guard army only has Strenght and Toughness 3 (and remember that in 40K commanders are always tough as nails, no armchair generals here).
In the 40K system the SM statline really means more than one point above human standard might seem to someone playing D6 Star Wars.
When it comes to bio/cyberwear I too see the 'advantages' of biowear. But I like the DSP generating cyberwear, it fits the 'evil empire' idea perfectly. The 40K Empire is fascist but not evil in itself (more a the end justifies the means during dire times) but the Galactic Empire is. Cybernetics therefore fits perfectly, even if it twists the persons wearing it.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I suppose it's a matter of personal opinion. After all, bioware would have advantages long term over cybernetics. For starters, bioware probably wouldn't have the same issues with accumulation of DSPs, since the implant is made of living tissue as opposed to inorganic material. Also, because the implants are integrated into an organic system, they would tend to be more self-reliant, and not require the regular maintenance one might expect from cybernetics. The trade-off might be that bioware is a lot more expensive than standard cybernetics, but then, the Empire wouldn't just be handing out bioware implants like candy. These would be expensive, purpose grown implants being given to troopers with proven skills and loyalty. |
The dissadvantage of the bioware in the Space marine fluff is it has to be implanted before or during puberty for it to work and even then there is a fairly high chance of tissue rejection/catastrophic failure.
That means you'd probably only ever see bioware in the best of the best who have been trained since birth and who have been selected for the highest degree of genetic compatibility.
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Orks, mentioned to weigh twice the weight of a human only has Toughness 4 as an advantage from this bulk of muscle and bone. |
A lot of this sort of thing is a game balance type situation though. Orks are frequently mentioned as being strong enough to rip a human's arm off but yet they have the exact same strength as a human or even an eldar.
In 40K a space marine's puch is almost exactly as powerful as his bolder (and is exactly as powerful if you don't include amour penetration as a factor) that makes no sense, the bolter it a miniture rocket launcher and yet the marines fist is just as good?
Everything has to be scaled to make the game playeable and the Marines are supposed to be able to wound the Orks 50% of the time but the Orks can only wound Space Marines 33% of the time (not counting special rules like furious charge or the various different types of Ork.)
In the game I run I use a direct translation, if something has 4 in strength then it has 4D in strength it's just easier.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | The dissadvantage of the bioware in the Space marine fluff is it has to be implanted before or during puberty for it to work and even then there is a fairly high chance of tissue rejection/catastrophic failure.
That means you'd probably only ever see bioware in the best of the best who have been trained since birth and who have been selected for the highest degree of genetic compatibility. |
Well, one of the best things about making a crossover is fitting the backstories together so that it's all plausible. In this case, just make something up. Perhaps the reason that the bioware has to be implanted during puberty is because of some obscure need to match the bioware exactly with the genetic signature of the recipient. This makes bioware prohibitively expensive and correspondingly rare for the general populace, but because clones have identical genetic structure, you can mass produce bioware for them because "one size fits all" in a manner of speaking
| Esoomian wrote: | A lot of this sort of thing is a game balance type situation though. Orks are frequently mentioned as being strong enough to rip a human's arm off but yet they have the exact same strength as a human or even an eldar.
In 40K a space marine's puch is almost exactly as powerful as his bolder (and is exactly as powerful if you don't include amour penetration as a factor) that makes no sense, the bolter it a miniture rocket launcher and yet the marines fist is just as good?
Everything has to be scaled to make the game playeable and the Marines are supposed to be able to wound the Orks 50% of the time but the Orks can only wound Space Marines 33% of the time (not counting special rules like furious charge or the various different types of Ork.)
In the game I run I use a direct translation, if something has 4 in strength then it has 4D in strength it's just easier. |
Well, for a crossover conversion, it's nice that the D6 system has a couple steps in between the full dice values, so if, as was mentioned, an ork is supposed to be tougher or stronger than an equivalent human, but has the exact same stat, you can bump it to 4D+2 (as an example).
Another factor is that WH40K stats are most definitely not a direct crossover. You have multiple WH40K stats that would play into factors in one SW D6 stat, and vice versa. Just because a SM in WH40K has a Strength of 4, that doesn't necessarily mean that it translates directly across, as the T and BS stats also come under the Aegis of the Strength stat in SW.
Ultimately, you're stuck with winging it and guessing, and hopefully not having too many people disagree with you. IMO, if you are designing a supra-human soldier that is supposed to be stronger, tougher and faster than the human norm, just give the stat an extra 1D in the appropriate places, then throw in a few special abilities, like the acid spitting, maybe even natural body armor or whatever. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | I have the Rogue Trader book and there the genestealer generation idea is already in place.. No matter. I use the Stealer idea where the 'egg' (ovipositor or whatever) also puts the infected victim under the hive mind in 1d6 hours. As a 'nid' takeover creature I use a sort of Centipede that attaches to the spine from the neck down and 'possesses' the victim. These usually rest in the hundreds in large pods, which burst when they sense people nearby. |
Nasty! Is that separate from the Genestealers? I could see it being a nasty surprise that Tyranid Lictor infiltration biots might use as part of their pre-invasion activities. |
Yeah, its more part of Tyranid forces (especially on space hulks and where they might encounter sentient beings) than the infiltrating Gene Stealers (which work with another timeframe). Actually there is (was) a similar elusive creature called the Cortex Leech. However I rather liked the idea of a black crawling carpet of half meter centipedes swarming their targets and attaching to the spine to dominate their subjects. Nids could be the 'horror' of SW these days as Sith has been done to death.. 
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like it if you guys could PM me about some of the stats you've come up with for the Tyranids. I know some of you have players that frequent the forums, and I'd hate to have you spoil the mystery for them. However, I've been trying to think up some other possibilities for "outbreaks" besides viral zombies and whatever else.
I've already worked in "Space Marines" somewhat in my SWU with the Mandalorians, since I see a lot of parallels except for the bioware enhancements and everything; along with replacing "The Emporer" with Mandalore... etc...
Anyway, much appreciated in advance! |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Yeah, its more part of Tyranid forces (especially on space hulks and where they might encounter sentient beings) than the infiltrating Gene Stealers (which work with another timeframe). Actually there is (was) a similar elusive creature called the Cortex Leech. However I rather liked the idea of a black crawling carpet of half meter centipedes swarming their targets and attaching to the spine to dominate their subjects. Nids could be the 'horror' of SW these days as Sith has been done to death.. |
Very true. Although a large portion of that could be laid at the feet of whoever is writing the story lines for Dark Horse comics, as they always seem to order their ancient Jedi vs. Sith story plots with extra, extra cheese.
Personally, I think combining Chaos with Sith in this crossover would really rejuvenate things. Imagine Star Wars Sith Lords based in the SW equivalent of the Eye of Terror, with thousands of years to distill and ferment and become truly truly nasty and evil, like the Chaos Warmasters.
Tyranids would definitely be an excellent villain, with the Genestealers and Lictors providing the early intrigue, then the full swarm hitting hard later. Necrons are also very creepy in their own right. I always thought the Ssi-Ruuk were silly, but the concept of entechment dovetails quite nicely with the Necron harvesting raids.
Lots of possibilities here  |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | I'd like it if you guys could PM me about some of the stats you've come up with for the Tyranids. I know some of you have players that frequent the forums, and I'd hate to have you spoil the mystery for them. However, I've been trying to think up some other possibilities for "outbreaks" besides viral zombies and whatever else.
I've already worked in "Space Marines" somewhat in my SWU with the Mandalorians, since I see a lot of parallels except for the bioware enhancements and everything; along with replacing "The Emporer" with Mandalore... etc...
Anyway, much appreciated in advance! |
That's the thing with Tyranids; because they absorb the genetic structure of their victims, the hivemind uses that knowledge to produce more and more different variants. Everything from cannon-fodder shock troops, flying raiders, full-fledged warriors, psychic specialists and command creatures, all the way up to full-fledged assault monsters that dwarf an AT-AT. A full conversion of just the current Tyranid organisms would be a full-sized sourcebook before too long. |
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