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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Going through the Weapons PDF..
NON powerered
Whip -moderate
Club - v.easy
Gaffi stick - easy
Staff - v. easy
Snap baton - moderate
Light mace, Easy
Harvest blade - moderate
Hatchet - easy
Bayonett - v.easy
Fft knife (ssi-ruvi) - moderate, difficiult if u lack the 3 claw hand of the Ssi Ruvvi..
Garotte - moderate
Coufee - v.easy
Combat knife, easy
D'shkar, moderate
hand claws, v.easy
Spear, easy
Ar;gor blade, moderate
multiweapon, Easy to moderate
Rodian rasor stick, moderate
Petranki scimitar, easy
shyran easy
Tsaisi easy or moderate based on type
Amphistaff, same
Finger spears, based on range
Slice wire, difficult
mollecular stilleto, moderate
Sword, easy
Long/broad sword, moderate
sith sword, moderate
Ryyk blades, easy
Zhaboa double blade pike, difficult
Coyn'skar, moderate blade, v.difficult disarm with hook
Selonian glave, difficult
Axe, easy
Aagarok axe (gamorean) moderate
Thogk, v.easy
Dematoil, moderate to difficult
Soknar, moderate
Rantok, difficult
Wan-shen, moderate
Sc'rath togorian scimitar, moderate
Thrar'kor blade, moderate,
Shashan fira sword, easy
Sat'skar, difficult two handed, very difficult one handed.
Powered
Vibro shiv, easy
Vibro knuckler, v/easy
Tehk'la blade, v.easy
Vibro bayonett easy
Vibro saw, moderate
Vibro blade, moderate
Droid consealed vibro blade, moderate
Duelists vibro rapier, moderate
Double vibroblade, Difficult,
Double-bladed vibro stave (Crimson guardsmen weapon) moderate, Difficult if you don't have the specialtiy.
Vibro axe, moderate
Jengardin double bladed vibro blade, difficult, adds 2 levels to any skill check not melee/melee parry related when using.
Blast sword, moderate
power sword, difficult
Power cane, moderate (or easy)
Geonosian electro staff easy
Force pike, moderate
Great force pike, moderate
Cofessors whip, moderate
Thats 12 that have a difficult or higher difficulty...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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So do it like the double vibro-staff. Make Lightsaber into Melee Combat at Heroic unless you have the specialization (drops to Difficult).
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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But forcing the specialization puts you right back into the boat of standard lightsaber skill. Hear me out. Melee Combat & Melee Parry each an individual skill, if you make lightsaber a specialization of each, you halve character point cost, making it the same cost to raise attack & defense as if you just had the single standard skill. Why over complicate the situation by removing a skill then forcing a specialization that puts you right back where you were initially?
Perhaps rather than fiddling with the lightsaber skill, you could make the rule that lightsabers can be used by the melee combat & melee parry skills at a base difficulty of very difficult or heroic. This gets you the same effect without having to do additional book keeping. Then when the lightsaber is used with the melee combat skill, the missed difficulty of 10 or more causes the self mutilation, whereas with the lightsaber standard skill, it leads to a fumble of the weapon.
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | Perhaps rather than fiddling with the lightsaber skill, you could make the rule that lightsabers can be used by the melee combat & melee parry skills at a base difficulty of very difficult or heroic. This gets you the same effect without having to do additional book keeping. Then when the lightsaber is used with the melee combat skill, the missed difficulty of 10 or more causes the self mutilation, whereas with the lightsaber standard skill, it leads to a fumble of the weapon. |
I'd be more inclined to say perhaps lightsaber can be used at 1/2 melee or melee parry skill levels because it is quite different to most other weapons.
It's a sword in nature but it cuts in any direction, there is no 'flat' to the blade so a swordsman may miss opportunities for a strike instinctively attempting to bring the edge to bear and someone used to a blunt weapon like a club or a staff may be thrown off by the cutting effect when they expect a solid impact.
And that doesn't even consider the possibility of a massless, weightless blade.
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | Raven Redstar wrote: | | Perhaps rather than fiddling with the lightsaber skill, you could make the rule that lightsabers can be used by the melee combat & melee parry skills at a base difficulty of very difficult or heroic. This gets you the same effect without having to do additional book keeping. Then when the lightsaber is used with the melee combat skill, the missed difficulty of 10 or more causes the self mutilation, whereas with the lightsaber standard skill, it leads to a fumble of the weapon. |
I'd be more inclined to say perhaps lightsaber can be used at 1/2 melee or melee parry skill levels because it is quite different to most other weapons.
It's a sword in nature but it cuts in any direction, there is no 'flat' to the blade so a swordsman may miss opportunities for a strike instinctively attempting to bring the edge to bear and someone used to a blunt weapon like a club or a staff may be thrown off by the cutting effect when they expect a solid impact.
And that doesn't even consider the possibility of a massless, weightless blade. |
All those things make the lightsaber easier to use, though.
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Esoomian wrote: | I'd be more inclined to say perhaps lightsaber can be used at 1/2 melee or melee parry skill levels because it is quite different to most other weapons.
It's a sword in nature but it cuts in any direction, there is no 'flat' to the blade so a swordsman may miss opportunities for a strike instinctively attempting to bring the edge to bear and someone used to a blunt weapon like a club or a staff may be thrown off by the cutting effect when they expect a solid impact.
And that doesn't even consider the possibility of a massless, weightless blade. |
All those things make the lightsaber easier to use, though. |
Perhaps, I'm not entirely convinced but it still makes it significantly different from all other melee weapons.
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Matthias777
Commodore
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 1835
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | So do it like the double vibro-staff. Make Lightsaber into Melee Combat at Heroic unless you have the specialization (drops to Difficult). |
Something like that.
| Raven Redstar wrote: | | But forcing the specialization puts you right back into the boat of standard Lightsaber skill. Hear me out. Melee Combat & Melee Parry each an individual skill, if you make lightsaber a specialization of each, you halve character point cost, making it the same cost to raise attack & defense as if you just had the single standard skill. Why over complicate the situation by removing a skill then forcing a specialization that puts you right back where you were initially? |
The RAW/original stats state that the danger is only when attacking, not parrying, but I get what you're saying, as most people would probably houserule that the danger is inherent regardless as to whether you are attacking or parrying. The thing is, though, lightsabers are melee weapons. Every other melee weapon is placed under the Melee Combat skill, no matter what it is. Dematoils are basically just tribal flails...vastly different from a sword or an axe in how you wield them. Same goes for nunchucks or what have you. I daresay that someone used to swords and axes would do better with a lightsaber than a dematoil if they'd never handled either one before.
Given the system that WEG came up with, the question isn't really "why remove a skill and change the weapon's stats to achieve the same effect?", it's "why did WEG add a skill to achieve the same effect as making the weapon's stats reflect its difficulty when being used?".
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | All those things make the lightsaber easier to use, though. |
It only makes it easier if you've overcome being used to how "regular" melee weapons work. The lightsaber is a superior weapon, but if you're hampered by habits based on the functionality of traditional weapons, those technical advantages can be negated...or even work against you.
As always, everyone should do what suits them best. I'm not going to tell you you're wrong if you want to keep Lightsaber as a standalone skill. I think I'll fold it into Melee Combat/Parry, though, for my own use.
I've asked this before, but never got a reply...does anyone have any input on using the lightsaber as a tool (e.g. - cutting open a tauntaun)? Seems like something most anyone could do, with a lot less danger to themselves than attacking another being would pose (though some measure of danger would still be present).
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Given the system that WEG came up with, the question isn't really "why remove a skill and change the weapon's stats to achieve the same effect?", it's "why did WEG add a skill to achieve the same effect as making the weapon's stats reflect its difficulty when being used?". |
The answer is a simple one for me: Jedi are special. They get their own special skill for their special weapon, so that you don't have every Tom, Dick, & Jane in the SWU gaming community walking around with laser swords hanging at their hips because they do E-WEB or Thermal Detonator damage and look really cool.
Rolling it into the melee skill opens up more problems than it solves. People seem to think that it will make Jedi able to fight better with non-lightsaber weapons, but the greater galaxy gets the gate opened into the most powerful melee weapon ever invented in that universe.
I'm gonna have to stick with lightsaber skill. Melee Combat/Parry + specialization requirements feels too much like: Base Attack Bonus + Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Lightsaber for my tastes. But hey, let me know how it turns out when your Merc or Bounty Hunter is vying for the lightsaber dropped off of the BBEG because they have a higher melee combat skill than the party's Jedi.
(BBEG = Big Bad Evil Guy)
I have had the unfortunate opportunity to see what happens when you give gamers access to anything that can be abused. If it can be, it will be. I remember a character who was able to use Martial Arts to kick a whole through a blast door with a force point. When you give everyone the potential to have a massive damage weapon, they will take it and try to crush your game with it. The only way to defeat it, is to GM hand-wave, which just ends up pissing your players off. Fight/argument ensues, game over.
Conversely, to address the issue of Jedi able to use their lightsaber training with standard melee weapons, I'm working on a system of Advanced lightsaber techniques to give a little more variety to the lightsaber skill. In the rules I'm brewing up, a Jedi can use their (A)Lightsaber form to enhance their melee combat and/or parry skill.
Please don't take anything I've said as some sort of personal insult or anything. I'm simply trying to bring to light the problems that can occur with certain "fixes" to the system.
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Esoomian wrote: | | Raven Redstar wrote: | | Perhaps rather than fiddling with the lightsaber skill, you could make the rule that lightsabers can be used by the melee combat & melee parry skills at a base difficulty of very difficult or heroic. This gets you the same effect without having to do additional book keeping. Then when the lightsaber is used with the melee combat skill, the missed difficulty of 10 or more causes the self mutilation, whereas with the lightsaber standard skill, it leads to a fumble of the weapon. |
I'd be more inclined to say perhaps lightsaber can be used at 1/2 melee or melee parry skill levels because it is quite different to most other weapons.
It's a sword in nature but it cuts in any direction, there is no 'flat' to the blade so a swordsman may miss opportunities for a strike instinctively attempting to bring the edge to bear and someone used to a blunt weapon like a club or a staff may be thrown off by the cutting effect when they expect a solid impact.
And that doesn't even consider the possibility of a massless, weightless blade. |
All those things make the lightsaber easier to use, though. |
All this assumes that there is no other force involved in handling the lightsaber, that it essentially is like swinging a flashlight..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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You are still using a hand-held object to smack someone else with it. That's Melee Combat, with a weapon that is essentially a sword, using techniques directly derived from sword fighting. The uniqueness of the weapon should be reflected in the weapon itself (I.e. the stats), not by making it a completely separate skill in a system that allows no overlap for weapon similarities.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Matthias777
Commodore
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 1835
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | Please don't take anything I've said as some sort of personal insult or anything. I'm simply trying to bring to light the problems that can occur with certain "fixes" to the system. |
No worries, RR. I value your insight and see the reasoning behind your words, even if we end up on different sides of the debate. I am going to have to take a lot of what you said into account when re-re-re-revamping the lightsaber's stats, and when GMing a game in which lightsabers are present. I understand that sometimes it's hard to keep things out of PCs' hands without coming off as being a heavy-handed hand-waver (say what now?), but you'd have the same burden if you were to have a cloaking device or something in your campaign. If all else fails, have the dark Jedi drop (toss, if necessary) it in the lava pit! 
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | All this assumes that there is no other force involved in handling the lightsaber, that it essentially is like swinging a flashlight.. |
Well, a weightless blade would be like swinging a flashlight. A particularly hummy one, though. There's a great deal of hum involved.
| crmcneill wrote: | | You are still using a hand-held object to smack someone else with it. That's Melee Combat, with a weapon that is essentially a sword, using techniques directly derived from sword fighting. The uniqueness of the weapon should be reflected in the weapon itself (I.e. the stats), not by making it a completely separate skill in a system that allows no overlap for weapon similarities. |
Agreed.
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthias777 wrote: | | Given the system that WEG came up with, the question isn't really "why remove a skill and change the weapon's stats to achieve the same effect?", it's "why did WEG add a skill to achieve the same effect as making the weapon's stats reflect its difficulty when being used?" |
I provided what I believe is the answer to this question of why the WEG designers chose to make lightsaber a separate skill. I don't believe that making weapon stats reflect difficulty was actually a major consideration.
| Matthias777 wrote: | | I've asked this before, but never got a reply...does anyone have any input on using the lightsaber as a tool (e.g. - cutting open a tauntaun)? Seems like something most anyone could do, with a lot less danger to themselves than attacking another being would pose (though some measure of danger would still be present). |
Two ways to look at it.
(1) The dying tauntaun has a dodge of around 0. So the difficulty is lower than difficult, say Very Easy.
(2) The dying tautaun is not moving, not dodging, not parrying, and not resisting in anyway. Treat this as an advantage for the "attacker" and give a bonus to his "attack" of say +10 to +15.
Either method makes it very reasonable that Han with DEX 3D+2 (his base for the lightsaber skill) could still hit the tauntaun with Luke's lightsaber. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | But forcing the specialization puts you right back into the boat of standard lightsaber skill. Hear me out. Melee Combat & Melee Parry each an individual skill, if you make lightsaber a specialization of each, you halve character point cost, making it the same cost to raise attack & defense as if you just had the single standard skill. Why over complicate the situation by removing a skill then forcing a specialization that puts you right back where you were initially?
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Plus if it is a specialization of melee, then you get light saber users being able to quickly get their skills with the saber up high (since specialties can be increased at half cost)...
This is amplified if you have already "rolled" melee parry and Melee combat into just one melee skill.
| Quote: |
Perhaps rather than fiddling with the lightsaber skill, you could make the rule that lightsabers can be used by the melee combat & melee parry skills at a base difficulty of very difficult or heroic. This gets you the same effect without having to do additional book keeping. Then when the lightsaber is used with the melee combat skill, the missed difficulty of 10 or more causes the self mutilation, whereas with the lightsaber standard skill, it leads to a fumble of the weapon. |
Now this i can agree with.. Defaulting LS skill use to melee/melee parry, but at a 1 cat increase in the base difficulty.
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Esoomian
High Admiral
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose the other question to ask is what problem are you trying to solve by making Lightsaber part of the melee skill?
Do you want regular people more able to wield lightsabers?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking for myself, it seems obvious to all intents and purposes that a Lightsaber is a Melee weapon, yet the RAW makes it separate from all other Melee weapons for mostly obscure reasons involving game balance and the notion of making the Lightsaber "special." IMO, this misses the point. The Lightsaber, for all of its uniqueness and difficulty to use, is still just a tool. It is the Jedi, with his connection to and ability in the Force that truly makes the Lightsaber an amazingly formidable weapon. It makes no sense to me to single out a weapon with obvious similarities to other basic Melee weapons just because of who the weapon is associated with.
The Force would provide a Jedi no less guidance and direction if he were wielding a sword, staff or club than it would if he were wielding Lightsaber, but the RAW restricts him to a single usable weapon type, both in skills (Lightsaber) and Force Abilities (Lightsaber Combat). My perception of the Force and how FS characters relate to the SWU is much less restrictive than the RAW, and I have seen far too many errors in the RAW over the years to have any qualms about altering the RAW to fit the real SWU. IMO, this is just another case in point.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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